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DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL 


HEARINGS 

BEFORE THE 

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS 

3 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SIXTY-SIXTH CONGRESS 
SECOND SESSION 

ON 

THE RILL MAKING APPROPRIATIONS FOR THE DIPLOMATIC 
AND CONSULAR SERVICE FOR THE FISCAL YEAR 
ENDING JUNE 30, 1921 



JANUARY 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 1920 


STATEMENTS OF 

Hon. Robert Lansing, Secretary of State 

Dr. L. S. Rowe, Department of State 

Constantine E. McGuire, International High Commission 

Mr. Wilbur J. Carr, Director of the Consular Service, and 
Mr. Tracy Lay, American Consul 

Mr. E. C. Barnard, United States Boundary Commissioner 

Mr. Whitehead Kluttz, Secretary International Joint 
Commission, United States and Canada 

Lucius D. Hill, Commissioner for the United States of the 
International Boundary Commission, United 
States and Mexico. 



WASHINGTON 

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
1920 



















COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS. 


Sixty-sixth Congress, 

SECOND SESSION. 

STEPHEN G. PORTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman. 


JOHN JACOB ROGERS, Massachusetts. 
HENRY W. TEMPLE, Pennsylvania. 
AMBROSE KENNEDY, Rhode Island. 
EDWARD E. BROWNE, Wisconsin. 
MERRILL MOORES, Indiana. 

WILLIAM E. MASON, Illinois. 

WALTER H. NEWTON, Minnesota. 

L. J. DICKINSON, Iowa. 

ERNEST R. ACKERMAN, New Jersey. 
FRANK L. SMITH, Illinois. 

JAMES T. BEGG, Ohio. 

ALANSON B. HOUGHTON, New York. 

Edmund 

o 


HENRY D. FLOOD, Virginia. 

J. CHARLES LINTHICUM, Maryland. 
WILLIAM S. GOODWIN, Arkansas. 
CHARLES M. STEDMAN, North Carolina. 
ADOLPH J. SABATH, Illinois. 

GEORGE HUDDLESTON, Alabama. 
TOM CONNALLY, Texas. 

THOMAS F. SMITH, New York. 


F. Erk, Clerk. 


LIBRARY CF CONGRESS 

DEC 111936 

DIVISION OF DOCUMENTS 


‘. < 
* ‘ i 

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i 







DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL 


Committee on Foreign Affairs, 

House of Representatives, 
Washington , D. C., Wednesday , January 7, 1920.. 

The committee met at 10.40 o’clock a. m., Hon. Stephen G. Porter 
(chairman) presiding. 

The Chairman. Mr. Lansing, the committee is taking up the ap¬ 
propriation bill this morning and we will be glad to hear any sug¬ 
gestion you have to make. 

STATEMENT OF HON. ROBERT LANSING, SECRETARY OF STATE. 

Secretary Lansing. Mr. Chairman, the estimate for this year for 
our foreign intercourse, that is, from 19*20 to 1921, shows a net in¬ 
crease of $1,481,439.34. Now, of that amount almost $1,000,000 is 
made up of expenses of international undertakings to which the 
United States is legally obligated by treaty, or else it is obligated 
by the spirit of friendship and comity. The items to which I refer 
in that particular are a building in which to house the International 
Trade-Marks Bureau at Habana, of which the share of the United 
States is $825,000; then there are other international undertakings 
of $112,950. That leaves an increase in regard to the force, the diplo¬ 
matic and consular force, of $543,479.24. This increase may be 
lumped into three items: Increase in salaries of ambassadors and 
ministers, $174,333; increase in the salaries of secretaries in the diplo¬ 
matic service, $179,041.67; increase in appropriation for post allow¬ 
ances, $200,000. Now, in regard to these items which I have referred 
to, I wish to confine my remarks to the last three. The others will 
be explained to you by Dr. Rowe and Mr. Carr, who have had to do- 
with the international undertakings. 

The Chairman. That is, you will confine yourself to the increase 
in salaries of ambassadors "and ministers and secretaries and post 
allowances? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir; in round numbers, $550,000. 

The Chairman. How much is the post allowance? 

Secretary Lansing. $200,000 increase. These are increases. 

The Chairman. I thought you said $200. I wondered about it at 
the time. 

Secretary Lansing. General increases in salaries have not been 
included in the estimates because that is contrary to the policy which 
has been adopted by the Executive; that is, not to include any’in¬ 
creases of salary. The increases in salaries of heads of missions and 
of secretaries have been included because they were embraced in the 
estimates of last year. We have simply adopted the estimates of last 
year in that particular. They are not, therefore, new items. The 

3 



4 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


importance of making proper provisions for the conduct of our for¬ 
eign affairs may be briefly set forth as follows: In the first place, it is 
a matter of common knowledge, I assume, that we have achieved a 
position in the world and of importance to the world which we never 
anticipated, and great opportunities have been opened for the de¬ 
velopment of our commercial and industrial life. 

It is something I scarcely need to explain or expand upon, because 
it is so patent to all of us, that these opportunities are awaiting us 
and that if we do not take advantage of them now we lose them, 
We have loaned approximately $10,000,000,000 to 11 foreign coun¬ 
tries. Therefore, we have a financial interest in the world that we 
never had before. Of course, we have a monopoly to-day of the 
gold of the world, and we are the principal source of supply of raw 
materials for the industries of the world. Then we have a great 
merchant marine, a large part of which is Government owned. There 
are claims on the part of our citizens which, of course, are really 
claims of this Government against other nations growing out of the 
war, of about $1,000,000,000 that will have to be readjusted. 

The Chairman. Do you include that in your estimate against 
Mexico ? 

Secretary Lansing. I think there are included about $30,000,000. 
The Mexican claims will be considerably enlarged when it comes to 
an adjustment. I do not believe this billion dollars includes all the 
claims, by any means. I think there are many more besides; but, of 
course, that requires a very considerable service abroad in handling 
the claims, if they can be adjusted without going through the formal¬ 
ities of a judicial proceeding. 

The Chairman. May I interrupt you a moment? In what form 
is the evidence of this indebtedness? 

Secretary Lansing. Of the claims? 

The Chairman. Yes; the claims against foreign countries— the 

$ 10 , 000 , 000 , 000 ? 

Secretary Lansing. That is something that the Treasury must 
answer. I would not want to speak on that except in round figures. 

Mr. Flood. Mr. Secretary, you are referring to claims outside of 
loans ? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes; the billion dollars is outside of the loans. 

Mr. Flood. How much? 

Secretary Lansing. A billion dollars. The loans amount to some¬ 
thing like $10,000,000,000. Now, we have a very considerable mone¬ 
tary interest in Europe. 

Sir. Flood. Mr. Secretary, would you mind stating the charac¬ 
ter of those billion-dollar claims? 

Secretary Lansing. What they are? 

Mr. Flood. Yes, sir. 

Secretary Lansing. It would be very hard for me to go into the 
details of them. They cover submarine sinkings; they cover claims 
against Great Britain while we were neutral, as to seizure of ves¬ 
sels, and other losses of a like nature. 

Mr. Flood. How many nations have claims of that kind against 
them ? 

Secretary Lansing. I do not think I could answer that question, 
but we must have them practically against nearly every nation eu- 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 5 

gaged in the war. I do not believe there is any nation that we have 
no claims against. I can give you a full statement in regard to that. 

Mr. Flood. I would like to see that myself. I do not know about 
the other members of the committee. 

Claims of the United States against foreign Governments will 
amount to in the neighborhood of a billion dollars or more. Of 
these about $800,000,000 will lie against the Central Powers, and 
approximately $30,000,000 against Mexico. 

It is to be understood that these amounts are derived from state¬ 
ments of individuals and are not the result of investigations by the 
Department of State. 

The claims arise out of such events as the loss of life and property 
due to submarine warfare, the injury to or destruction of American 
property in territory of the enemy or allies of the enemy, or territory 
which has been in enemy occupation; the detention or seizure of 
American-owned goods by countries associated with the United 
States in the present war; the loss of life by or personal injury to 
American citizens; the damage to or destruction of property in 
Mexico and other neutral countries. 

The number of all of these claims is approximately 3,700. Many 
of these have been presented to the department as formal claims 
against foreign Governments prepared according to regulations of 
the department as distinguished from claims which have been filed 
in less formal manner. The claims prepared include approximately 
450 against Germany, 30 against Austria, and 85 against Turkey. 
Total, 565. 

About 125 claims have been filed against Great Britain, and there 
are, in addition, on record some 800 cases of seizure or detention 
of goods by Great Britain. 

The Chairman. In what way will these claims be adjusted, by a 
commission of some sort ? 

Secretary Lansing. That depends entirely upon the success of our 
efforts abroad. If we can avoid a commission, it is better. If we can, 
adjust them by direct diplomatic means. It saves very considerable 
time. A claims commission always drags, and as a result payments 
are deferred. If we can do it by direct negotiation, we save time 
and our people get their money just that much sooner. 

The Chairman. There is no doubt about that. 

Secretary Lansing. So I point out to you that we have at least 
ten times as much interest in a monetary way in Europe as we ever 
had before. Since 1913 our ships engaged in foreign trade have 
increased 357 per cent. Our passport correspondence has increased 
991 per cent, and the foreign trade has increased over 100 per cent, 
all of which indicates that we are going to have a very heavy burden 
imposed upon our diplomatic and consular officers abroad, a much 
heavier one than they had before. Then, of course, we still have 
war going on in Russia and Siberia, Turkey is in a state of ferment, 
and the relations between this country and Germany and Austria 
and Hungary have not yet been restored. 

We are being constantly urged to^give assistance to the various 
countries in Europe that "are suffering, and economic assistance is 
required. That means renewal of trade relations. The result is that 
we have very heavy responsibilities imposed upon us, and we have to 


6 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


discharge our legal and moral duty in safeguarding the interests 
of our own Government and people abroad. We have to utilize 
the great opportunities we have in the matter of commercial and 
industrial interests, and, in addition, we must furnish economic aid 
to these countries. That does not necessarily mean that we should 
give them money, but we must provide so that they can restore 
themselves to a more or less normal condition. 

Mr. Flood. Give them a credit ? 

Secretary Lansing. Possibly a credit for the purpose of conduct¬ 
ing their trade relations with us in a proper way. Of course, this 
question of exchange is a very serious one, and how soon that will 
be adjusted no one can tell, but I am not enough of a financier to 
give an opinion in the matter at all. Our political and economic 
interests will become more or less fused. They are very closely 
related, and when you come to the directing influence it is, in the last 
analysis, political; I mean internationally speaking it is political. 

Our economic policies are very closely allied to our political poli¬ 
cies and they have to be directed more or less by the organization 
which has control of political matters in the world. I think I spoke 
to some of you gentlemen here once before about reorganization of 
the State Department. Mr. Porter knows about it and Mr. Flood, 
1 know, remembers it, because he was here at the time, and some 
others know about it. Of course, that is right in line with any 
expansion that we might make in our foreign service. If we do not 
have our foreign service expanded, we can not do the work any more 
than we can do the work if we do not reorganize the Department of 
State on a more businesslike basis than we have to-day in order to 
meet the present conditions. 

Mr. Flood. What do you think of the chances of getting the en¬ 
largement you ask for in the State Department ? 

Secretary Lansing. I do not know. I thought there was no use 
in discussing it before the Congress reconvened. Of course, if the 
treaty is approved, it will impose upon us a very considerable burden 
on account of the number of commissions that we may have to enter 
upon and which will all come under the Department of State. 

Mr. Ackerman. If it is approved in the form in which it is now, 
without regard to reservations or no reservations, about how much 
money would that require? 

Secretary Lansing. I have not estimated that so far, but as I 
recall it there are something like 23 or 24 missions provided for in the 
treaty, which is quite a heavy burden in itself to handle. Then we 
have, I think, in the neighborhood of 20, and maybe more—inter¬ 
national commissions that we have to conduct. 

Then there is another question of great importance which ought 
to be considered in this relation. The activities of our Government 
in the foreign field, although extensive, have been conducted by sev¬ 
eral departments independently of each other, following no' well- 
defined line of coordinated effort and without regard to any well- 
conceived general policy. The question of duplication of work or of 
effort in the foreign field is secondary to the broader considerations 
of unity of purpose and the force to be gained through a concentra¬ 
tion of energy under a central control. The clay has passed when this 
Government could undertake to conduct its foreign affairs with scat- 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 7 

tered forces. The complexion of the world is such that every foreign 
situation is fraught with the utmost delicacy and must be handled 
with corresponding deftness and care. The Department of State is 
charged with the conduct of international relations which are at 
once the most sensitive and the most vital of our governmental inter¬ 
ests, being as they are not only the basis of all foreign trade and 
finance but inextricably interwoven with the broad issue of our 
nati6nal defense. 

As an essential factor in the furtherance of any specific or general 
policy, the Department of State must be relieved of all embarrass¬ 
ments which might arise through the uncontrolled acts of agents 
abroad who may not themselves be impressed with the bearing of 
their work upon the relations and the interests of the department 
responsible therefor. In the past many representatives of other de¬ 
partments have made extensive investigations abroad without the 
knowledge of either our diplomatic or of our consular representa¬ 
tives, and without either consulting them or making any effort to 
profit of such material as they may already have had in hand. The 
lessons of the war have taught us the necessity of a higher order of 
coordination, and the first step toward that end must be in the nature 
of a rectification of the obvious defects in our present system through 
the concentration of forces, the centralization of control, and the 
fixing of responsibility. 

The preponderance of the United States in the financial and eco¬ 
nomic domain has placed us in a position which carries with it a 
tremendous responsibility and thrown upon us an obligation which 
if not unerringly discharged might subject us to the aggressions of 
others. Economic and political issues have become so confounded 
that the old familiar criterion in commercial affairs may be said no 
longer to exist. 

The Department of State is desirous of fostering and devoloping 
a broad and a w r orthy policy which in its application will discharge 
our obligations toward the foreign world with justice and equity 
and at the same time create a wholesome atmosphere favorable to 
the extension of American trade, an atmosphere free of obstructions, 
discriminations, and artificial barriers. It is the desire of this de¬ 
partment to lend strength and courage to every legitimate private 
enterprise of American citizens abroad by protecting it in its prop¬ 
erties and exercising that degree of vigilance over its interests which 
will shield it against those hazards and unstable elements so detri¬ 
mental to constructive enterprise. 

It is not the intention of this Government to advocate commer¬ 
cial aggrandizement through artificial stimulation based on dis¬ 
criminations and unfair advantages. American commerce and Ameri¬ 
can industry are economically sound, and in seeking the conquest 
of foreign markets need only the assurance that their efforts will 
be expended in a field of fair play, the only one in which well-directed 
initiative may build solidly on a substantial basis of merit. In an 
effort to solve the economic problems arising out of the present crisis 
there is a disposition abroad to resort to political devices which tend 
to divert industrial currents from their usual channels. Our duty 
coincides with our interest in eradicating these artificial and espe¬ 
cially purely political factors from the domain of international trade, 


8 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


and in order that the Department of State may utilize properly, the 
full machinery of its diplomacy to the accomplishment of the desired 
results it is essential that it should be given command of the foreign 
field with freedom to direct all efforts abroad in harmony with its 
general policy. 

The matter of reorganization of our foreign service, both diplo¬ 
matic and consular, is demanded, I believe, by the business interests 
of this country and by the public at large. I am quite convinced of it. 
Of course, the individual does not realize it unless he has a foreign 
customer or unless he is going to travel abroad, and then he at once 
realizes it. Of course, we must realize that that covers a good 
many thousands of our people, and yet comparatively few directly. 
I think it does not affect very materially all the people, because all the 
people are engaged now more or less in foreign trade, although it 
may go through other hands than the actual producers. Now, in 
order to enlarge our foreign service, or even to improve our service, 
we have certainly got to give adequate compensation to the men that 
engage in it. We have got to give them the feeling, and it must be 
justified, that they can make it a permanent career, if the} 7 go into 
either the Diplomatic or Consular Service, and if we do not do that 
we are not going to get able people in the service, and we have never 
needed them as much as we do to-day. 

Any reorganization of the Diplomatic Service particularly—because 
the Consular Service is already pretty well organized along the line 
of permanency—any reorganization of the Diplomatic Service will 
be most welcome to the Department of State, because it is quite essen¬ 
tial that there should be given a sense of permanency to the service. 
Of course, anything along that line will be beneficial, bearing in 
mind, of course, the constitutional right of the President, as to ap¬ 
pointments, the appointing power. 

Mr. Rogers. Mr. Secretary, I prepared a bill last May along that 
very line, and Chairman Porter, at my request, referred it to the 
State Department for an opinion. I thought that the department 
would be interested in it because I knew it represented the view of 
a good many of the men in the department. I can not attribute the 
delay to the Secretary, because he was in Europe at that time, but 
although something like seven or eight months have intervened and 
although several requests have been made for a reply to that letter 
from the committee, the department has never given its opinion on 
that bill. I speak of that simply to indicate that it is a bit hard for 
members of the committee who are really anxious to formulate con¬ 
structive legislation in aid of the department to be met by that kind 
of bearing in the department itself. 

Secretary Pansing. I am glad you spoke of it, and I shall be very 
glad to take the matter under my personal consideration. I have not 
taken it under consideration as yet. 

Mr. Rogers. I have been approached informally several times by 
several men in the department and have been assured that the letter 
had been written and was coming the next day, and then two months 
later I would be assured that the letter had just been written, that 
there had been a little difficulty about the last letter, but now, without 
difficulty, we.would get our response, but seven or eight months have 
tailed to elicit an actual response. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 9 

Mr. Flood. Does not that demonstrate that the State Department 
has not man power sufficient to do the enormous amount of work ? 

Mr. Rogers. I do not think that in this case it is a question of man 
power! If I am correctly informed by the gentlemen in the depart¬ 
ment itself it is because there has been a difference of opinion among 
themselves which they have not been able to reconcile. 

Secretary Lansing. And it may be a small difference, too. Pos¬ 
sibly the State Department is as conservative as any other depart¬ 
ment in that particular—that is, they go very slowly when they are 
committing themselves to a departure from what they already have y 
but I am very much disposed to cut loose from precedent in that par¬ 
ticular, go ahead and improve that department and improve the for¬ 
eign service in any possible way that we can. 

Mr. Flood. Mr. Secretary, have we not done what you suggest as 
far as we can? 

Secretary Lansing. Oh, yes; I think you have. 

Mr. Flood. Have we not carried out your suggestions in reference 
to every foreign appointee except the ministers and ambassadors? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. Well, you mean- 

Mr. Flood (interposing). In making them permanent? 

Secretary Lansing. Oh, yes; but you see, of course, there is a lim¬ 
itation upon the question of permanency. There is a constitutional 
limitation of the President’s absolutely free hand in the matter of 
appointments. The permanency in the Consular Service is by 
Executive order and not by act of Congress. 

Mr. Flood. The classification is by act of Congress ? 

Secretary Lansing. The classification is by act of Congress, but 
so far as appointment is concerned it requires an Executive order y 
because it is the constitutional power of the President. 

Mr. Flood. But Congress can not get around that necessity? 

Secretary Lansing. They can not change that, but that is the way 
the Consular Service to-day is operating as a permanent body. 

Mr. Flood. What I had in mind was what action of Congress do 
you contemplate would make these services more permanent? 

Secretary Lansing. That is something we have got to studj r 
very carefully. It is very much easier with the Consular Service 
than with the Diplomatic Service. 

Without entering into a detailed discussion of the matter at the 
present moment, I may take advantage of this opportunity to state 
certain principles to which I believe effect should be given in order 
to attract to and retain in the Diplomatic Service the best material 
available and to assure the development along the lines of highest ef¬ 
ficiency of those who enter this service. In the first place it is es¬ 
sential that young men in entering this career may be able to look 
forward to the possibility of promotion to the highest office which 
the service offers, provided through natural ability and training they 
prove to be thoroughly fitted for those offices. They should also be 
assured that the service offers a permanent career throughout its. 
various grades and that they will be removed from office only when 
the best interests of the service so demand. Finally they should be 
given a living wage in order that the department may not be re¬ 
stricted in its selection to those of an independent income. 


10 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

The department will view with favor legislation embodying the 
principles outlined above, and which in no way attempts to inter¬ 
fere with the constitutional powers of the President. 

Now, going back, in the recommendation of the increase in salaries 
of ambassadors, the amount is $25,000 instead of $17,500. That does 
not meet, by any means, the normal expenditure of an ambassador 
at our principal European posts. They run anywhere from $50,000 
to $80,000 a year. That is, if they live like the United States would 
like its representatives to live. The increase in the salaries of min¬ 
isters is from $10,000 or $12,000 to $12,000 or $15,000. 

The Chairman. These increases, Mr. Lansing, will not destroy the 
vice of the present system, however, of compelling a man to share 
the larger proportion of the cost of the performance of his duties? 

Secretary Lansing. No, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. If you had your choice between receiving for the 
ministers and ambassadors the increases here recommended, or the 
embarkation on a policy of acquiring the embassies and legations 
on the part of the United States, I assume you would take the lat¬ 
ter? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes. Of course, to get a proper embassy 
abroad, what we would assume to be consonant with the greatness 
of this country, you must bear in mind that that embassy may be 
much more expensive to keep up than a smaller place that the am¬ 
bassador might rent himself, and at the same time he would be 
relieved of the rental. I know some of our ambassadors pay their 
entire present salary for rent. 

Mr. Rogers. What does Mr. Davis pay ? 

Secretary Lansing. I can not tell you exactly, but he has obtained 
very reasonable rental. I think it is about $9,000. 

Mr. Begg. Do you think it is a wise policy for the United States 
to pay such a salary that only a wealthy man can afford to take the 
job? 

Secretary Lansing. No. I think the present salaries that we pay 
are among the most undemocratic things that we do. 

Mr. Begg. Well, on the other hand, would you not be willing to 
say that we should pay such salaries as would warrant the selection 
of any man that was the most qualified ? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes; I would. I know very well, for in¬ 
stance, that it is costing Ambassador Davis far more than he can 
afford, that it is a very great sacrifice when a man’s private income, 
in connection with his salary, does not meet his expenses by any 
means. It is pretty hard on a man to do that, and yet we are doing 
it constantly. We have to look every time to see whether a man 
has a fortune behind him. I think it is. the most undemocratic 
thing imaginable to limit to men of wealth the appointment of am¬ 
bassadors abroad, unless a man is willing to make a very considerable 
sacrifice. 

Mr. Rogers. The question in my mind is whether the recommenda¬ 
tion in this bill will go even part way toward curing the vices of 
the present system. It seems to me—and I am putting this rather 
in the form of a question than as an assertion—it seems to me that 
in order to make a beginning toward overcoming the present out¬ 
rageous and undemocratic system, we ought to embark upon a 


/ 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 11 

policy fostered by the State Department and pushed very hard by 
the State Department, of acquiring suitable but not extravagant 
embassies and legations abroad. 

I can see your point, that if we get a palace and give it to a poor 
man, the maintenance is going to be a white elephant on his hands. 
I take it that no one in or out of this country would want to present 
a palace to an ambassador or a minister, but we should rather give 
him an adequate house where he should pay the minimum rather 
than the maximum of elegance and magnitude, if you like. So that 
I am fearful that in granting these salary increases to ministers we 
are simply facilitating instead of amputating, and we are getting 
away from the real question which is to provide permanent homes for 
these men. 

Secretary Lansing. I think we should do both. 

Mr. Begg. I would like to ask one question in connection with Mr. 
Roger’s remarks. Since you say, as you do, that you believe it would 
be a better policy, why a recommendation for $25,000? Whv not a 
larger sum? 

The Chairman. You could not get it through. I think, Mr. 
Lansing, that the committee agrees with you that this whole system 
must be reorganized. We can not get 100 per cent efficiency out of 
a man who has to pay for his position. Under the present system, 
no matter what the man’s ability may be, unless he is wealthy he is 
unable to accept one of these positions. 

Secretary Lansing. That is quite true, and if he does accept them 
it is only for a very brief period because, he can not afford to go on. 

Mr. Flood. Mr. Secretary, will $25,000 anything like pay the ex¬ 
penses of one of our ambassadors at one of the important capitals of 
Europe ? 

Secretary Lansing. There is just this that might be said, and that 
is, that it is possible that there are certain European posts that re¬ 
quire a larger salary than others. For example, take the post at 
London and at Paris, and Rome particularly, and possibly Spain, 
possibly Germany. They ought to have a higher salary than an am¬ 
bassador to Mexico, for example, or one to Argentina, or one to Chile. 

Mr. Flood. Or the ambassador to Spain? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, but I say I am not sure which class that 
should be included in. It is possible that we ought to make two 
classes of ambassadors. I am not sure but what that might be done. 

Mr. Rogers. Would not that affront the countries that were put 
in the second class? 

Secretary Lansing. We do it now with ministers. 

Mr. Rogers. I know, but that is historical, more or less, and this 
would be clone for the first time. 

Secretary Lansing. That is true; but at the same time there would 
be. no interest in making the embassy at the City of Mexico a financial- 
profit institution while the embassy at London would not meet ex¬ 
penses even with an increased salary. 

Mr. Rogers. Mr. Secretary, in that connection, is it not probably 
true that most of the class 2 ministers are able to realize a profit on 
their salaries? 

Secretary Lansing. I think they do, but very small. , 

Mr. Rogers. Then, why the recommendation for an increase of 
their salaries? 


12 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Secretary Lansing. Oh, you mean the $10,000? 

Mr. Rogers. Yes, sir. 

Secretary Lansing. I do not believe many men can do that. 

Mr. Rogers. I think if you take some of those Central American 
and South American countries, and this is the impression that I have 
gained only on rather imperfect information, but I know that some 
of those men have been successful in coming home with a pretty sub¬ 
stantial nest egg for their bank account. 

Secretary Lansing. I should not think it would be a large one, but 
it may be done. I wish you would ask Dr. Rowe, because he is very 
familiar with all the Latin Americas. I do not think there is very 
much money made out of the Government in the matter of salaries. 

Mr. Rogers. About as much as a Congressman makes? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes; just about; and I would like to include 
Cabinet officers. 

Mr. Dickinson. What is there inherent about the position of am¬ 
bassador to these countries that is so expensive that it should cost a 
man $80,000 to live, Mr. Secretary ? 

Secretary Lansing. Well, it is only gaining a certain social pres¬ 
tige that is very valuable to him in his work. We all want to have 
our country represented as a great country. The other nations do. 
Now, for example, I have tried to get the information in regard to 
some of the other nations’ representatives here and my information 
is that the British ambassador receives $50,000 a year. 

The Chairman. $55,000, I think. 

Secretary Lansing. And his house and quite a corps of servants 
and a certain allowance for entertaining. 

Mr. Dickinson. Yes; but is there anything about that social pres¬ 
tige that gives him any particular advantage with the average hard- 
headed American? 

Secretary Lansing. How do you mean ? 

Mr. Dickinson. That gives him any particular prestige that he 
would not have if he did not do any of those things? 

Secretary Lansing. Not with the American, but it makes a dif¬ 
ference with foreigners, and that is where the prestige comes in. 
Now, the French ambassador receives $35,000 here and a house and 
he lives comparatively simply and entertains handsomely, but he 
has an allowance, I understand, for his entertainment. The Italian 
ambassador receives $25,000 and a house here, and also certain 
perquisites. Foreign ministers in Washington receive from $12,000 
to $21,000 a year. ’ 

The Chairman. The custom, Mr. Lansing, is immemorial that 
representatives of foreign Governments give these large entertain¬ 
ments. 

Secretary Lansing. Oh, yes; it would be remarked upon and criti¬ 
cized by the foreign Governments if it were not done. I know one 

minister told me the other night when I was talking to him _I was 

asking him about his salary, which possibly was not a very diplo¬ 
matic thing to do—and he said he received, I think it was, $15,000 
a year; but, he said, “ Of course, if I go over that in my expenses in 
this country, the President of the Republic’’—this was a Latin- 
mencan Republic •“ the President of the Republic has authority 
and does make up any difference that I expend, so, ” he said, “ I 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


13 


am never a loser.” Their President has the power to grant that 
•extra allowance. 

Mr. Rogers. Is the new house which has been purchased for Po¬ 
land to be the property of the Government or of the minister per¬ 
sonally ? 

Secretary Lansing. I think it is for the Government. It was 
much cheaper to purchase it than to rent it. 

The Chairman. It will not be as expensive for the foreign min¬ 
isters to entertain after the 16th of January? 

Secretary Lansing. They can do it if they want to. Now, I do 
not think I need to elaborate any further on the matter of the neces¬ 
sity of the representative abroad in any important post, whether an 
embassy or a legation, having a private fortune in order to serve 
his country. That has now become a necessary qualification. 

Mr. Flood. Mr. Secretary, I notice among the embassies that you 
mentioned which might be put in the second class, Argentina. I 
understand that that is about the most expensive post of any you 
have ? 

Secretary Lansing. Unfortunately, I have not the figures as to 
the expenses of our various embassies. I intended to get them be¬ 
fore I came before the committee so that I could find out how much 
our people expended. 

Mr. Moores. Mr. Secretary, Mr. Charles Sherrill told me some 
years ago, when he was. ambassador to Argentina, that there was 
no suitable house in Buenos Aires that could be rented for the am¬ 
bassador’s salary and that his house cost him more than his salary ? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes; and the same is quite true of Paris. 

Mr. Rogers. On that first paragraph, Mr. Secretary, must we go 
on appropriating year after year for an ambassador to Turkey? 
Will there ever be another ambassador to Turkey from this coun¬ 
try? 

Secretary Lansing. It depends entirely upon what the determina¬ 
tion of the Allies is. 

Mr. Rogers. It would soothe my personal feelings a good deal 
if you could omit that provision -from this bill. 

Secretary Lansing. I think that is possibly true of Austria. It is 
probably true that Austria at the present time ought to be reduced 
to a legation, and in the same way Hungary should be reduced. 
Of course, Germany will have to continue as an embassy because 
it has not been lessened particularly in size. 

Mr. Rogers. Austria-Hungary is one mission? 

Mr. Sabath. Yes; but it will not be now. 

Secretary Lansing. I think so far as the bill is concerned, we 
will have to proceed on the present basis until we have determined 
whether we are going to accept the peace treaty as to the delimita¬ 
tions of boundaries. 

The Chairman. I was just going to ask you. Do you think it 
is wise to interfere with the present situation until the treaty is 
disposed of? 

Secretary Lansing. No, sir; I think not, though possibly it will 
need revision after some determination is made of the treaty; at least, 
we should bear that in mind. 

The Chairman: Mr. Lansing, we all recognize the vice in this 
present system of representation abroad. Personally, I am not 


14 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


much of a believer in makeshift remedies. What would be your 
idea of a complete remedy for this situation? 

Secretary Lansing. If I was going to suggest, and I hesitate to 
do it, I would suggest $35,000 as an adequate salary, with a certain 
discretionary power in the Secretary of State as to post allowances 
to supplement the salary in the event of very serious differences in ex¬ 
penses. Most men, even if they have only a small fortune, would be 
willing to expend $5,000 or $10,000 out of their own funds in order 
to have the honor of representing their country abroad, but even if it 
should cost them $40,000 or $45,000 a year, if they expend more than 
that, I really do not think it would be absolutely necessary, yet it is 
very hard at the present time to fix what is a proper expenditure on 
the part of an ambassador or minister because of the state of the 
world, the value of money, the high cost of living, which all enter into 
it, and there is where there ought to be a certain latitude in post 
allowances to take care of it. 

The Chairman. Do you think we will ever have it properly 
adjusted until we have purchased embassies and furnished them 
for our representatives ? 

Secretary Lansing. No, sir; I do not. 

The Chairman. Then your idea would be buy embassies and fur¬ 
nish them and pay the ambassador an adequate salary ? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes; an adequate salary. 

The Chairman. Would there be any objection to making the 
salary at the Court of St. James materially larger than in Argen¬ 
tina ? 

Secretary Lansing. I can not see any objection. I would like to 
think about it, but at present I can see no objection to it. I will 
endeavor to get a report of expenses or an estimate by each one of 
our ambassadors as to what their expenses will be or have been per 
year. 

Mr. Moores. Is it not a fact that the British adjust the pay of 
their ambassadors? My only authority for it is Whittaker’s Alma¬ 
nac. I do not think they are all alike. 

Secretary Lansing. I know they do. 

The Chairman. Great Britain does. 

Secretary Lansing. I see no reason why a distinction should not 
be made. Unquestionably, Great Britain has a larger expense in 
France than probably any other country. 

Mr. Rogers. Great Britain pays its ambassador to Italy $35,000, 
her ambassador to Japan $25,000, and her ambassador to France 
$57,500. 

Secretary Lansing. I think the simple way would be to pay 
a minimum salary and to grant a sufficient post allowance so that 
in the discretion of the Secretary the salary could be supplemented 
to meet necessary expenses and to regulate the standard of repre¬ 
sentation which should exist in each capital. 

Mr. Flood. In what respect does the post allowance assist the 
ambassador or minister ? 

Secretary Lansing. It could be given to him, for example, for 
living expenses, for servants, if necessary, or as supplementing his 
expenses. We have done that through the war in order to meet, the 
abnormal increase in the cost of living in the different countries. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 15 

Mr. Flood. I have been under the impression that the post allow¬ 
ance was distributed on the basis of such a per cent on the salary— 
fixed on the cost of living—in a particular place, and applied to all 
officials except ambassadors and ministers. 

Secretary Lansing. You say it does not apply? 

Mr. Flood. That is my impression. 

Secretary Lansing. No; it does not apply to ambassadors and min¬ 
isters; but I say that it should apply to ambassadors and ministers 
also, and then we could put them on a minimum basis of salary with 
an increased post allowance. 

The Chairman. That would vest a little too much power in the 
department and raise an objection that is often raised here. How 
would this plan strike you, that when we reach this question—and 
if we do not reach it this session we will in the next one—that we 
take up each country and investigate with considerable care the 
expenses that our ambassador has and fix a salary for that par¬ 
ticular place without regard to the salaries paid our representatives 
m other countries ? England undoubtedly does it, and she, therefore, 
could not object, and other countries follow the same practice. 

Mr. Carr. Why not give a definite minimum salary to the ministers 
and ambassadors and then fix an allowance based on the cost of 
living ? 

The Chairman. Yes; that would be a better way. 

Mr. Flood. The department already has that authority under the 
contingent fund. 

Secretary Lansing. That would be a discretionary power. I would 
be very glad to be relieved of any discretionary power, which has 
always been a difficulty, but there would have to be considerable dis¬ 
cretion left to the department in regard to post allowances. 

Mr. Flood. I think it would be better to fix it in the bill. 

Mr. Rogers. Mr. Secretary, referring back to my reference to 
Turkey and Austria-Hungary, etc., I notice that among the missions 
recommended, most of which I think are already authorized by ex¬ 
isting law, are Czechoslovakia and Poland and Finland ? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. Has not Jugoslavia been recognized also? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. Why is it that no provision has been made for a 
minister in that case ? 

Mr. Sabath. That comes under Serbia. 

Secretary Lansing. It comes under Serbia, but I do think that 
should be changed to the proper name. Our minister is accredited 
to the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, his nomination 
for that position having been confirmed last July. 

Mr. Rogers. Yes. I read in the press something about the minister 
of the Serbs, Slovenes, and Croats. You think that should be 
changed ? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. So far as I understand, the old Montenegro is, m 
part, at least, now included in the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes? 

^Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. And yet we have the nomenclature “ Greece and Mon¬ 
tenegro ” just as of old ? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 


16 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Rogers. In other words, your suggestion to wait on the peace 
treaty does not seem to be decisive in this matter, because we are 
creating new missions based upon the theory that the peace treaty 
will go through and yet we are retaining all the old missions sacredly 
just as if there was not going to be any change in the order of things. 

Secretary Lansing. The new ones we recognize regardless of the 
peace treaty. 

Mr. Rogers. That is true, but if the peace treaty does not go 
through I take it that some of those things might have to be “ un¬ 
recognized,” if there is such a word ? 

Secretary Lansing. No. The recognition of Poland and Czecho¬ 
slovakia and the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, has already taken 
place. It makes no difference whether we have a peace treaty or not; 
we have recognized them as independent States. 

Mr. Rogers. Take the case of the Netherlands and Luxemburg, 
which adjoin, and also Greece and Montenegro, which adjoin? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. It may be that in the old days that joinder was proper, 
but is it still proper now ? 

Secretarjr Lansing. What is going to happen to Montenegro I do 
not believe anybody knows. It is at present occupied by Jugo¬ 
slavia and administered as a part of the Kingdom of the Serbs, 
Croats, and Slovenes. The United States has never formally recog¬ 
nized this union and there is still a Montenegrin charge d’affaires in 
Washington. I believe the best course eventually will be to discon¬ 
tinue accrediting a minister to both Greece and Montenegro. There 
is a state of chaos there and therefore we left it as it was. I think 
we can subsequently amend it if there is a determination as to what 
is going to be done. 

Mr. Rogers. The provision for Finland is subject to a point of 
order, I suppose, because it is not authorized by existing law ? 

Secretary Lansing. No; it is not authorized. 

Mr. Moores. Mr. Secretary, I would like to ask you, to refresh 
my memory, what diplomatic residences we now either own or rent? 

Secretary Lansing. We own residences in China, Japan, Turkey, 
and Cuba—I think we own the one in Japan. 

Mr. Moores. We are paying ground rent, however? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moores. We pay a nominal sum but we really own it? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moores. You have mentioned China, Turkey, Japan and 
Cuba ? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. You should add to that the fact 
that we are building one in Salvador and we have an appropriatior 
for one in Mexico and one in Costa Rica. 

Mr. Sabath. Mr. Chairman, I notice the provision for Austria 
Hungary. Is it not a fact that there is no such thing- in existence 
and more, that Austria is a separate State recognized by the Allies, 
and, of course, by our country; and also Hungary, although we have 
not recognized Hungary as a separate and distinct State? 

Secretary Lansing. No. They are still a dual monarchy although 
we are treating them separately. They are a confederated monarchy 
so far as we recognize them, although we have dealt with Austria as a 
republic, the Republic of German Austria. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 17 

Mr. Sabath. Has Lithuania been recognized by some of tjie for¬ 
eign nations as a separate and independent State? 

Secretary Lansing. I believe she has. 

Mr. Sabath. Have we recognized Lithuania as a separate State ? 

Secretary Lansing. No. We believe in a greater Russia. 

Mr. Sabath. A greater what? 

Secretary Lansing. A greater Russia, a great Russia. The only 
one that we have been willing to recognize as separate and distinct 
from the old Russia has been Finland, for the reason that Russia 
should remain a great State instead of being divided up and be¬ 
coming the prey at once of the Central Powers. 

Mr. Ackerman. You recognize Poland as a separate State? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, but that takes in a portion of Germany, 
a portion of Austria, and a portion of Russia. 

Mr. Sabath. Including Warsaw? 

Secretary Lansing. Of course, that is a resurrection. 

Mr. Flood. Mr. Secretary, I would like to know what portion of 
this contingent fund goes to the chief embassies? 

Secretary Lansing. The contingent fund? 

Mr. Flood. Yes, sir. 

Secretary Lansing. I do not know that I can give you the exact 
figures. Possibly Mr. Carr can do so. 

Mr. Flood. We increased that fund very largely in the past five 
or six years for that purpose. 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Flood. It is for the purpose of assisting embassies? 

Mr. Carr. For assisting the heads of missions in their operating 
expenses. I do not think, Mr. Flood, that any of the money, with the 
exception of one case, has ever been spent for rental of residences. 
I looked that up the other day and I was unable to find that it 
had been. 

Mr. Flood. Just for the chanceries. 

Mr. Carr. Just for the chanceries. I found in one case, when Mr. 
Page was in Rome, that he was permitted to apply a small part of 
his contingent fund, approximately $5,000 a year, to the rent of 
the embassy residence. That was the only case that I have so far 
found. 

The Chairman. What is the difference between post allowances 
and the contingent fund? 

Mr. Carr. The contingent fund is the fund for ordinary running 
expenses, paper, telephone, messenger, telegrams, rent, taxis where 
necessary, furniture, etc. The post allowance is a separate allow¬ 
ance for the purpose of, during these war times, augmenting a man’s 
income in some proportion at least to the increase in the cost of 
living since 1914. 

Secretary Lansing. And in certain cases in regard to exchange. 

Mr. Carr. Yes; in China, for example. 

Secretary Lansing. And Chile. 

Mr. Carr. In China the price of silver has sent the exchange up, 
so that a salary you fixed last year in gold is worth in China only 
half what it was in 1914, and therefore, it becomes necessary to add 
a supplemental allowance to bring that salary up to the purchasing 
power that it had in 1914. 

161477—20-2 


18 diplomatic and consular appropriation bill. 

The Chairman. What misled me about it was, that in our city 
government, in Pittsburgh, the contingent fund is the same as the 
post allowance; that is, it is used to meet emergencies as they arise. 

Mr. Carr. The contingent fund in these bills is a continuing ap¬ 
propriation for miscellaneous running expenses. 

Mr. Flood. Mr. Carr, in 1915 we made a considerable amount of 
increase in the amount of the contingent fund. The Secretary of 
State then stated to the committee that it was for the purpose of 
increasing the allowance of certain missions for the purpose of en¬ 
abling them to pay rent. I recall that $15,000 of that fund was to 
go to London, $15,000 to Paris, $10,000 to Rome, $10,000 to Madrid, 
and so on. Since then we have increased that fund from $400,000 
to $1,300,000. I wanted to ascertain whether there was any larger 
amount of money going to these missions for the purpose of main¬ 
tenance ? 

Mr. Carr. No. As a matter of fact, Mr. Flood, I recall that last 
year it was the opinion of the committee that approximately $100,- 
000 of that contingent fund was authorized to be spent for the rent 
of residences of heads of missions. When I came to look that 
matter up in the preparation of the estimates this year, I was un¬ 
able to find that any, except a small amount allowed to Mr. Page, had 
ever been spent for that purpose. I have not had time to inquire why. 
I suspect that it was merely overlooked. The large expenditure, 
however, from the contingent fund to which you allude was an 
expenditure for the running expenses of the Diplomatic Service. By 
that I mean rent, stationery, furniture, telegraphing, messenger serv¬ 
ice, etc. 

Mr. Flood. Incidental expenses—expenses incident to the condi¬ 
tions of the war ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Secretary Lansing. We had 100 men in London, for example, and 
large numbers at other capitals. 

Mr. Carr. The greatest expense in that appropriation was for tele¬ 
graphing, amounting to $800,000 or $900,000 a year, which, as 
you see, left very little out of the fund for the ordinary running 
expenses. 

Mr. Ackerman. Mr. Secretary, may I ask you another question? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Ackerman. You said a few moments ago that these post 
allowances so far as China was concerned were used for the purpose 
of making up the difference in the rate of exchange, a dollar not 
purchasing there but half what it was in 1914? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Ackerman. What is the practice observed now where the rate 
of exchange is so much against the country, say in Paris, Brussels, 
and Rome, where instead of getting 5 francs for the dollar a man 
can get 11 francs and 40 centimes for a dollar? 

Secretary Lansing. The change is not great. The cost of living 
has gone up at the same time. In China it is a question of exchange 
entirely. So far as the European countries are concerned, where the 
exchange is in our favor, where they get more local money, at the 
same time the prices have gone up much in proportion. That is 
where the difficulty lies. 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


19 


Mr. Rogers. Has there been printed anywhere in a form available 
to ns an itemization of those contingent expenses under this appro¬ 
priation? 

Secretary Lansing. I will send you the entire report. 

Mr. Rogers. So that within a few days we will have the data to 
show us where this fund is expended? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes; and a very large part of it is for tele¬ 
graphing. 

Mr. Carr. I can put in the record an itemized statement giving the 
different amounts spent for the different items. 

Mr. Rogers. That is on this same item? 

Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. For the fiscal year ended last June? 

Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. I thought that would be of interest to the 
committee, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Yes; it would. 

Mr. Carr. I had it ready to put into the record when we reached 
that item. 

The Chairman. Suppose you put it in? 

Detailed statement of expenditures made by missions abroad for contingent 

expenses from appropriation “ Contingent expenses, foreign missions,” fiscal 
year 1919. 


Object of expenditure: 

Messenger, janitor, etc___ $192,140. 24 

Gratuities- v - 1, 094. 86 

Cab, carriage, and boat hire_ 10, 476. 48 

Lighting service- 16,141. 37 

Printing and binding_ 7, 372.15 

Postage- 9, 620. 46 

Telegrams_ 705, 513. 81 

Telephones__—-„ 8, 759. 66 

Duty and freight on furniture, etc_ 2, 864. 37 

Traveling expenses_1_ 1, 291. 90 

Loss by exchange_1_ 127, 360. 72 

Stationary supplies_ 34, 291. 34 

Newspapers_ 8, 898. 99 

Fuel and illuminants_,___ 27, 303. 83 

Supplies for cleaning and toilet_ 5, 327. 87 

Water and ice_ 2, 676.14 

Uniforms_ 2, 729». 44 

Miscellaneous_ 57, 619. 62 

Rent of office_’_ 83, 916. 70 

Repairs to buildings- 13, 090. 77 

Repairs to furniture and fixtures- 7, 801. 92 

Furniture and fixtures-:- 16, 760. 72 

Books___ 2,045,84 


Total expenditure. 


1 , 345 , 099 . 20 


Three quarters only: 
China. 

Sweden. 

Great Britain. 
Three quarters only: 
Cuba. 

Greece. 


Three quarters only—Continued. 
Haiti. 

Italy. 

Japan. 

Persia. 

Portugal. 

Russia. 


Mr. Carr. Besides this statement, the smallest details in regard to 
every post will be shown in the report which will be submitted in a 
few days. 




























20 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Secretary Lansing. Now, returning to the matter of salaries, there 
are the salaries of our secretaries, which run at present from $1,500 
to $3,000; $3,000 is the highest we pay. When you consider the 
type of men that we require, these secretaries’ salaries are almost 
absurd. There also enters into the problem with us the fact of 
whether a man has money enough to maintain himself abroad, not 
extravagantly, but in a proper way to represent his Government. 

Mr. Connally. Mr. Secretary, may I ask you a question? Why is 
it necessary for a representative of the United States Government to 
maintain himself abroad in any other manner than he maintains him¬ 
self at home ? 

Secretary Lansing. There is not any. 

Mr. Conn ally. I was very much impressed when I was over in 
Europe a little while and saw a great many of the embassies. I was 
very much impressed by the understudies, secretaries, and others. It 
looked to me like they were all trying to ape some Europeans. They 
had European manners and tried to talk like Europeans, and act like 
Europeans, and it was entirely disgusting to rhe. It seems to me that if 
our foreign representatives abroad have got to depend for our influ¬ 
ence on the number of pink teas they attend or the number that they 
give, and things of that kind, that we are losing the American view¬ 
point. While I am in favor of buying embassies and houses and build¬ 
ings abroad, and in favor of adequate salaries, we ought not to be, and I 
am not in favor of, appropriating money to pay either ambassadors 
or secretaries or anybody else to put on social stunts and lead the 
lives of Europeans or other nations that seem to spend money like 
water. I do not believe that it is the proper American viewpoint, 
and I was very much disgusted. 

Secretary Lansing. Where did you visit? 

Mr. Connally. Paris, Rome, Brussels, and London. I took occa¬ 
sion one or two times to express myself upon those conditions. 

Secretary Lansing. I do not think that you properly emphasized 
the work that those men do. 

Mr. Connally. I saw some of the work that they did not do. 
They had very short hours, too. They all met around at the Ameri¬ 
can Club at 4 o’clock and had cocktaiis. 

< Secretary Lansing. You know that in doing business with a for¬ 
eign country the hours of business are determined not by the Ameri¬ 
can Embassy, but they are determined by the foreign countries, and 
you must follow their customs in that particular. But I can assure 
you that we have had a dozen men break dow T n from nervous pros¬ 
tration from overwork. 

Mr. Linthicum. Do you not think that comes largely from the 
little work that some of them perform? 

Secretary Lansing. No, sir; I do not. I do not agree with you 
for one moment in that particular. I think we haVe as loyal and 
industrious a body of men in the foreign service as we have in any 
other branch of the Government. 

Mr. Linthicum. Well, it is very discouraging, Mr. Secretary, when 
you can not get into the office in Paris before 10 o’clock, and you can 
not get in there between 12 and 2 or after 4. It is not very encourag¬ 
ing to an American who is used to doing a full day’s work. 

Secretary Lansing. But that is a limitation on receiving inter¬ 
views. I heir work does not stop there. Many of them do not stop 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 21 

until 10 or 11 o’clock at night. I know that from personal experi¬ 
ence. 

Mr. Linthicum. I agree with you that you are correct as to many 
of them but not with the majority of them, and I happen to know 
whereof I speak. 

The Chairman. Is the secretary under any social obligations? 

Secretary Lansing. It depends. If he is a counselor of an em¬ 
bassy, he is; because he does a good deal of the personal work in the 
matter of interviews with foreign officials. Very much of that is 
done just as it is done here. The counselors of embassies do almost 
as much as the ambassadors or ministers. An ambassador or minister 
can not begin to take up the details. He has to rely on his subordi¬ 
nates in those matters. 

The Chairman. If we should conclude to make an allowance for 
entertainment, the allowance should go to the ambassador? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And let him take care of his secretary in any way 
he sees tit ? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I am trying to avoid the idea that you must have 
a ncti secretary as well as a rich ambassador. 

Secretary Lansing. There is only this difference, that many of the 
men in the service have been offered four or five times what they 
have been receiving in the service and they stay in the service. » 

Mr. Linthicum. That is because they like to live in foreign coun¬ 
tries better than they do at home, because they have some private 
means? 

The Chairman. If the ambassador is unable to give these social 
functions and delegates his secretary to act for him, why should it 
not come out of the ambassador’s funds ? 

Secretary Lansing. I think it should. I think it might be ar¬ 
ranged. 

Mr. Rogers. If it is true, as Mr. Linthicum and Mr. Connally 
have suggested, that some of our younger and newer secretaries 
abroad are not of the caliber that we should like to have, is it not 
inevitable that that fact should be so with the size of the salaries 
that we pay, $2,000 or $2,500, with absolutely no prospect of pro¬ 
motion after they have gone into the service and remained in the 
service for years? Their ultimate goal is $3,000 after 20 years* 
service. The wonder is that you get any good men, because the 
primary appeal is to the idle-rich type, and it is our fault that that 
condition is true. 

Mr. Linthicum. I have always advocated at all times the build¬ 
ing of embassies, and I do not want it understood that I mean that 
all these men are not workers, because many of them are hard 
workers and work much longer hours than I have indicated. But 
I am talking about the clerks and stenographers and those people 
who work there just a few hours. It seems to me that in Paris, 
with the war going on and men wanting to get into the office, they 
ought to have more opportunity to get in there than they have. I 
have seen strings of people reaching from the pavement clear back 
to the office door, and when 12 o’clock came that string had to go 
away, and they went away and came back at 2 o’clock and stayed 
there until 4 o’clock. 


22 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Secretary Lansing. One reason for that was a shortage in the 
number of people. You can not keep people at work from half 
past 9 in the morning until 6 o’clock at night, without any break 
in between, unless you have enough people to run them in shifts. 

Mr. Linthicum. That is one thing that I want to bring out very 
distinctly. 

Secretary Lansing. I think the force should be sufficient to take 
care of that. 

Mr. Linthicum. I think if we need more force there we ought 
to have more force, and if people visit Paris, for instance, they 
ought to have an opportunity to get into the office at all times during 
the day. It makes no difference how many men it takes to do the 
work, the public ought to be accommodated. 

Secretary Lansing. I think you are quite right about that. Of 
course, you realize that requires responsible officials. It is not the 
average clerk who can see a man. 

The Chairman. Mr. Lansing, is it any excuse if a man charged 
with the duty of receiving Americans at these embassies takes two 
hours for his luncheon and causes inconvenience to our people? 

Secretary Lansing. Meanwhile he has probably mail to prepare, 
and certain things of that sort. He can not take time to interview 
men and at the same time write a letter. He must have some time to 
himself. 

Mu. Begg. Is it not a fact that every business man, big or little, 
gives more time to his own business in this country and does not have 
nervous prostration ? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes; but I do not see visitors all the time. If 
I did I would not do anything else. 

Mr. Linthicum. I do not assume, of course, that there are visitors 
standing there in front of an embassy three or four hours a day, 
seven days in the week, or anything like that, but it strikes me that 
instead of making a social playhouse it ought to be a representation 
of the American institution of democracy and as such it ought to be 
open to Americans, to say the least, during the sunshine hours. 

Secretary Lansing. That is very well if you will give us enough 
men. 

Mr. Linthicum. I do not think-we need more money. 

Secretary Lansing. That is a matter of opinion. 

Mr. Linthicum. The boys that went over there to fight, they did 
not get off at 6 o’clock or 4 o'clock. 

Secretary Lansing. No; they used to get off for two weeks. 

Mr. Linthicum. Yes; they got off for two weeks when they came 
out of the trenches. 

Mr. Connally. I did not experience any of the difficulties that Mr. 
Linthicum experienced in getting in. 

Mr. Linthicum. I did not say I experienced any difficulty, but the 
crowd was so big in the front of the building that I went up through 
the janitor’s quarters, through the kitchen and up a back stairway, 
and I received special attention, but I am talking about the ordinary 
American citizen who is compelled to travel over there. I am not 
blaming it on anybody in particular, and if the force is not large 
en( j U £ h to be l al 'ger. I have a young friend in the service, 

and he gets $2,000 a year. It has been absolutely impossible for him 
to live and I think he is leaving and coming home. Now, a man in 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


23 


Paris can not live decently on $2,000 and be in the American Embassy, 
and we ought to allow a sufficient salary to maintain a proper force 
there. 

Mr. Sabath. Is he one of those who works from 10 to 12 and from 
2 to 4? 

Mr. Linthicum. This young man I speak of ? 

Mr. Sabath. Yes. 

Mr. Linthicum. No; he was working there from early in the 
morning until late in the evening. I called him up at 7 o’clock and 
he was working, and you could not get into his office in those hours. 

The Chairman. Mr. Linthicum, were not conditions normal in 
Paris when you were there? 

Mr. Linthicum. Oh, I suppose so. 

Secretary Lansing. In regard to the secretaries, gentlemen, they 
can earn a great deal more outside of the service than they can in 
the service. They stay in because they love the service and yet there 
is no inducement held out to them. You can not control people 
unless you pay them decently. Now, that is unquestionably true. 
We can not get the caliber of men that we want unless it is simply 
out of love of the service and they have funds of their own. We 
can not get the character of people we want at the salaries we pay. 

Mr. Sabath. And you are recommending a raise ? 

Secretary Lansing. I am recommending an increase, for secre¬ 
taries, to $2,500, $3,000, and $4,000, and for counsellors to embassies 
or legations, $6,000. Then we have something that a man can live 
on and make a career. Now, bear this in mind, too, many of the 
young men retire from the service when they want to get married 
because they can not support their wives on the salaries they receive. 
They simply have to retire, that is all. They h^ive to go somewhere, 
where they can earn more money. 

Mr. Begg. Is not that sometimes a good thing for the service? 

Secretary Lansing. No, sir. I think to put that embargo on 
marriage is undemocratic. 

Mr. Begg. That is not the proposition. I am referring to the fact 
that they retire from the service. Would not that be a good thing 
for the service sometimes? 

Secretary Lansing. We have lost some of our best men in that 
way. 

Mr. Begg. Have you not also lost some of your worst men? 

Secretary Lansing. We do not keep them when they reach that 
condition. 

Mr. Sabath. You do not give them a chance to retire? They 
get out themselves? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes; or it is suggested that they.leave. 

The Chairman. Is it generally true that our embassies are only 
open to Americans between 10 and 12 and between 2 and 4 o’clock? 

Secretary Lansing. I do not know how that is. I do not believe 
it is true. 

The Chairman. At the same time, if that is the fact, it ought to be 
stopped at once. 

Secretary Lansing. Of course, when we were under the great 
pressure that existed during the war we had to have very limited 
hours as to receiving people. 


24 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Flood. That was in reference to getting passports ? 

Secretary Lansing. Well, there were a great many other matters 
besides, but we had to limit it in order that we could prepare other 
matters, mail and documents. You can not make out passports and 
have interviews at the same time. You must have some time to do 
the work of the embassy. Therefore, the greater the pressure of 
business, the shorter the hours of interviews. That is bound to follow, 
while on the other hand, if an embassy has very little to do there is 
no reason why they should not have interviews all day without clos¬ 
ing their doors, but that means lack of business rather than increase 
of business. 

The Chairman. It is rather a bad state of affairs when an Ameri¬ 
can goes to an embassy to get a passport and has to wait two or three 
hours for somebody to come back from lunch. 

Mr. Flood. There were a great many passports at that time. 

The Chairman. Yes; take the illustration of Mr. Connally seeing 
these men at the club at 4 o’clock in the afternoon. 

Mr. Connally. I did not see anybody waiting anywhere. I was 
just wondering how the men disposed of any business at all in four 
hours. I did not have any trouble like Mr. Linthicum. 

The Chairman. It seems to me entirely practicable to have some¬ 
body there from 9 o’clock until 5 o’clock. 

Secretary Lansing. It is if we have enough people to do the work. 

Mr. Flood. Mr. Secretary, how many secretaries to the embassy 
at Paris have you had there in the last four years? What has been 
the number of secretaries assigned to that embassy ? 

Secretary Lansing. I should think about five. Is that right, Mr. 
Carr ? 

Mr. Carr. I think, as a minimum, that would be correct. Then 
there is a large force of other people employed there. 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, to look after passports. 

The Chairman. In that connection, how many people have you 
at the Court of St. James? 

Mr. Flood. During the last three years, say. 

Secretary Lansing. There are 25 outside of the secretaries at the 
present time. I forget whether there are 5 or 6 secretaries there now. 
In Paris, outside of the secretaries, there are 71 employees. 

The Chairman. Did you have that number during the prewar 
period? 

Mr. C'arr. Oh, no. Two or three secretaries constituted the staff 
in the London and Paris embassies, with half a dozen clerks, or some- 
think of that sort. 

Secretary Lansing. About 10, I should say. 

Mr. Carr. The work in practically all the European embassies 
has been completely revolutionized, and even with the staff that they 
have now they are pressed beyond endurance. 

Mr. Rogers. You are very much handicapped in getting the right 
caliber of men to enter the service as secretaries? 

Secretary Lansing. We have had very great difficultv in getting 
anybody to take the examination to enter the service. The condition 
became so bad that we finally held examinations last spring in Paris, 
because there were so many Americans who were leaving the Army 
over there and they wished to remain abroad. It was a mere matter 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 25 

of emergency that we opened an office for taking the examination for 
secretaries there, and that is the only way we could get enough to fill 
our positions. 

Mr. Rogers. Have you in mind the success that that method 
achieved in getting a good man for the service—the examination in 
Paris? 

Secretary Lansing. I think it did very well. 

Mr. Rogers. I was told that 250 men applied and only 3 received 
appointments? 

Secretary Lansing. Well, there were not many passed. 

Mr. Rogers. I say 250 applied and 3 in all received appointments 
as secretaries. 

Mr. Flood. That was because they did not stand the examination. 

Mr. Carr. I think a comparative^ small proportion passed the 
examination. 

Mr. Rogers. I wondered if the trouble was with the requirement 
or with the kind of men that applied? 

Mr.. Carr. It was the kind of men. 

Secretary Lansing. I think we get a different type of men entering 
the service here than those who entered the service from the Army 
abroad. Many of the men appearing for the examination in Paris 
were not of the type who would ordinarily come before the examin¬ 
ing board in this country; some were too old, many could not speak 
the English language, a large number were not fitted by study, train¬ 
ing, or business experience for positions in the Diplomatic Service* 
and a large number were not interested after they learned the salaries 
to be expected. Of the 266 persons who appeared for the examina¬ 
tion, only 98 completed both the written and oral tests and but 24 
of these "made a passing mark, 2 of whom were not eligible to ap¬ 
pointment because of their age. Of the 22 placed on the eligible list 
as a result of the examination, 11 have been appointed. 

Mr. Rogers. There are 47 men authorized for the class 4 secre¬ 
taries ? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. And I think about half of that class is now un¬ 
filled? 

Secretary Lansing. That is possible. I do not know how it is. 

Mr. Rogers. Of course, you need all those men? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. I am told there is a crying need for them all over 
the world. 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. And if you can not get them the service is crippled 
to that extent? 

Secretary Lansing. We can not get them at $1,500 a year. 

Mr. Rogers. Precisely; and why in the world should a man go 
into that job at $1,500 when a coal heaver is getting twice that much? 

Mr. Sabath. But a coal heaver does harder work, though. Mr. 
Chairman, will you pardon me for one question? Where the pass¬ 
port fee is $1 a great many complaints that come to the department 
are due to the lack of men in the passport division. Now, if the 
fees are fixed by law could we not raise the fees for passports to 
$5, and that would give you a much larger fund to take care of 
that needed service? 


26 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Secretary Lansing. Unfortunately, we do not get the money. It 
goes back into the Treasury. We have no authority to retain the 
fees. The law fixes the fees. 

Mr. Sabath. I believe that a person who applies for a passport 
can easily pay $5 for the time that it takes to investigate and issue 
and give a passport. 

Secretary Lansing. But you understand that the passport bureau 
is self-supporting to-day. We pay in more than the appropriation. 

Mr. Sabath. Notwithstanding that small fee of $1. 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. And the amount of investigation you do before you 
issue the passport? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes. 

The Chairman. Mr. Lansing, it might be a good idea to increase 
that passport fee, and that would give us a pretty good reason for 
increasing your force, because, as a matter of fact, it is costing you 
nothing at present? 

Secretary Lansing. But that applies in a very large measure to 
the expenses of the department proper rather than to the foreign 
service. It would more properly be connected with the department 
than it would with the foreign service, although the expense is 
divided between the two. 

Mr. Rogers. If you should increase the expense of the vise under 
the passport comptroller, that amount could very properly be re¬ 
tained ? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. If we are going to have a half million immigrants 
during the next year and we charge $2 instead of $1, or $5 instead 
of $1, it is going to make a good tidy sum for the service? 

Mr. Sabath. I had reference to the passports that are issued in 
American cities to business men who are willing to go and who 
are always in a hurry. They desire that everything should be set 
aside and they should secure the passport immediately. I know I 
have on an average 50 requests a day from the city of Chicago, and 
they all want immediate action. Now, in those cases they can 
afford to pay $5 or $10, and we use that money to increase the sal¬ 
aries of some of these clerks. Let us get more of them, so they will 
have no complaint to make that they were obliged to wait two or 
three days more than they thought they should in order to get 
their passports. 

Secretary Lansing. And also give us space to put our additional 
force in, which is quite essential. 

Mr. Sabath. I believe it should be done. 

Mr. Rogers. There is no provision for the administration of the 
passport control after June 30? 

Secretary Lansing. That estimate will come separately. 

Mr. Rogers. It would naturally come in the bill? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir; and that will be taken up when 
Mr. Carr testifies. 

The Chairman. I was just thinking about Mr. Sabath’s propo¬ 
sition. It strikes me as a pretty good idea; it might furnish us with 
funds to pay increased salaries. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


27 


Secretary Lansing. The burden falls on the alien. It means to 
charge more for passports to this country and increase the vise 
abroad. 

The Chairman. Would it be comparatively easy for you to pre¬ 
pare a statement for the committee showing the amount of fees col¬ 
lected by the State Department ? 

Mr. Carr. We have made that already. It is over a million dol¬ 
lars. We are collecting vise fees at the present moment at the rate 
approximately of $1,200,000 a year. 

Mr. Rogers. The Secretary testified quite fully on that with refer¬ 
ence to the passport control. 

Secretary Lansing. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Rogers. In the earlier hearings before the committee. 

Mr. Carr. The passport bureau in Washington itself is collecting 
fees at the rate of $150,000 a year. 

Mr. Sabath. Mr. Carr, you know that up to a few months ago 
you did not have enough help there? 

Mr. Carr. Oh, no; we have not enough help now. 

Mr. Sabath. I know I would come in there once in a while, and 
they w'ould be there at 5.30, at 6 o’clock, and at 6.30—the men and 
women in that department. 

Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. The same is true in Chicago. There are two men 
there and they work 10 to 12 hours a day. 

Secretary Lansing. We labor under this disadvantage. We do 
not pay them enough and we have lost 30 per cent or 40 per cent of 
our force, and we have to employ green hands. 

The Chairman. Has the department any other source of revenue 
outside of passports and vise fees? 

Mr. Carr. And the fees from the Consular Service. 

The Chairman. Approximately what are those fees? 

Mr. Carr. The fees from the Consular Service last year were about 
$1,300,000. The year before the war the fees from the Consular 
Service were over $2,000,000, and when trade again becomes normal 
the fees will go back there to that figure, or more, perhaps. 

Mr. Rogers. In normal times is not the Consular Service self-sup¬ 
porting ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes; it was before the war, but since the cost of living 
has gone up and expenses have gone up, it is no longer self-sup¬ 
porting. 

Mr. Rogers. Why should not our consular fees be increased in 
proportion with everything else in this world? 

Mr. Carr. That is a question for consideration. I should think 
you would want to study it carefully. 

Mr. Moores. The reason there are no fees now is because there is 
no trade, and they can not resume the trade until the rate of exchange 
is settled. 

The Chairman. I understand the department has a revenue of 
from $3,000,000 to $4,000,000 from fees? 

Mr. Carr. No, sir. 

Secretary Lansing. It has now $2,500,000, but it ought to increase 
to over $3,000,000. 

Mr. Carr. It will increase with import trade. 


28 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

The Chairman. Is it greater or less than it was in the prewar 
period ? 

Mr. Carr. It is much less, because the year before the war began 
the Consular Service received fees of over $2,000,000, and they are 
now only about $1,300,000. That is on account of the falling off of 
the import trade. 

The Chairman. I hope the committee will bear with me in asking 
these questions, because the suggestion strikes me with a great deal 
of force that it might be possible to increase the fees to an extent 
that would make the department self-supporting. I can not see why 
a man who wants to go abroad could object to paying $5 or $10. 

Mr. Sabath. They can all afford it. They are representatives of 
large concerns or people who want to go there for pleasure. They 
spend thousands of dollars and for $1 they want $1,000 worth of 
service, and then thev kick because they do not receive the passport 
that they make application for in the morning by 12 o’clock noon. 

The Chairman. In other words, we can tax salaries and we should 
also tax pleasures. 

Secretary Lansing. I think you could make a considerable in¬ 
crease. 

Mr. Carr. It used to be $5 and it was reduced to $1. 

Mr. Rogers. It is practically $2 now; it costs $2. 

The Chairman. What was the cause of the reduction from $5 
to $2?' 

Secretary Lansing. Formerly the passport did not amount to any¬ 
thing. Nobody paid any attention to passports unless they were 
going to Russia or Africa. 

Mr. Carr. I can easily find the reason why it was done by looking 
it up, but I suspect it was because it was desired to make the pass¬ 
port a little more available to a humbler class of people. 

Secretary Lansing. Suppose we make a report to you on the re¬ 
ceipts of the department and what would be the result if passports 
were increased to a certain figure, and what would be the result if 
fees for vises were increased, so that you could utilize the report as 
you see fit? 

The Chairman. And an expression of opinion from the depart¬ 
ment as to the consular fees. 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, and as to whether they are proper 
charges. 

Mr. Sabath. Can I ask a question that is not formed along the 
line of this matter and that has no connection with this matter? 
Mr. Secretary, before I forget, I notice that cable codes are still 
prohibited. Is there any reason why that prohibition should not be 
removed on the use of codes that are well recognized among the 
commercial people or in the commercial world, say, like the ABC 
code, or the Western Union code, or such other codes as are known 
to the department? 

Secretary Lansing. I did not know that they were still prohibited, 
f assume that belongs under either the Navy Department or the 
War Department. The Navy has generally had charge of the cable 
censorship. 

Mr. Sabath. It costs the American people thousands and thou¬ 
sands of dollars when they can not avail themselves of the code and 
where formerly a cable would cost $3 or $4 they are obliged to spend 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 29 

$15 or $20 or $25. It interferes with our commerce. I think we 
should as speedily as possible reestablish the use of code. I have 
wntten the Department of Commerce as well as your department a 
letter on the subject a few days ago. It came to* my attention that 
, ie \\ estern union is still refusing to accept code messages. They 
hnaliy said, as an excuse, that they can not help it, because it is under 
some order of the Government. Now, if such an order has been 
given—for good reason, there is no doubt—that reason can not exist 
any longer, especially when we have well-recognized codes with 

11( : the State Department and the Department of Justice are 
familiar, and such a code is plain as it can be to anyone, so that noth¬ 
ing can be inserted that would be detrimental to the country or to the 
department. I think something should be done immediately to re¬ 
establish the code service. 

Secretary Lansing. I certainly can see no objection to it. If your 
letter had been sent in, I assume that our officials will give attention 
to it in connection with the War Department and the Navy Depart¬ 
ment, to see what their objections are, if any. 

Mr. Sabath. T ou think it ought to be reestablished? 

Secretary Lansing. I see no reason v T hy it should not be. 

Mr. Sabath. There is no reason that you now see why it should 
not be reestablished? 

Secretary Lansing. None that I see now\ unless it be to certain 
countries, and really there could not be any objection in that case 
when v^e have the codes. Now, in connection with the item for post 
allow ances, I have already more or less discussed that in connection 
with the question of salaries. We requested $800,000 last year and 
we received $700,000. We allotted to the Diplomatic Service $175,- 
000, to our officials in China $100,000, and to the Consular Service 
in general $425,000. For the current year the appropriation wras re¬ 
duced to $600,000, thus making it necessary to decrease the allow¬ 
ances to the Diplomatic Service from $175,000 to $150,000; to the 
Consular Service in general from $425,000 to $290,000; and in spite 
of this we find that the cost of living has increased abroad. 

Mr. Rogers. That is $600,000. Where is the remainder of that 
sum? 

Secretary Lansing. To China? 

Mr. Rogers. Yes; $110,000. 

Secretary Lansing. No. In the case of China the exchange nearly 
doubled from what it was, so that w T e have had to increase the allow¬ 
ance there from $100,000 to $160,000. In addition to this, our Con¬ 
sular Service has been enlarged by 74 salaried members and there 
will be further enlargement by over 100. It is evident that the 
loss of a number of efficient secretaries is imminent and the dissatis¬ 
faction is practically certain to extend to the Consular Service. In 
that connection, while a bill is being prepared for the reorganiza¬ 
tion of the foreign service, there ought to be some provision made 
for the interchange of our consular and diplomatic officers, so that 
where we find a consular officer is particularly equipped for diplo¬ 
matic service and has proven himself so we should be able to transfer 
him into the Diplomatic Service. But until you adjust the salaries 
of diplomatic officers of subordinate rank you can not interchange, 
because the Consular Service is paying very much better than the 


30 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Diplomatic Service. But we have frequently found that our con¬ 
sular officers have excellent qualifications for the Diplomatic Service 
and yet we have to continue them in the Consular Service on account 
of the pay that they receive and we are unable to avail ourselves of 
their diplomatic ability. 

Mr. Rogers. And I suppose, conversely, that our diplomatic offi¬ 
cers would be ultimately better off if they had some consular 
experience ? 

Secretary Lansing. It would add very greatly to their efficiency 
if they had consular experience, but the personality is not of the 
sort that would make a good diplomatic officer in some cases, while 
in others they have proved themselves superior to many of our 
diplomatic officers. 

Now, gentlemen, I do not know that I can add anything to what 
I have said. 

Mr. Rogers. Can you give me some idea of the general scheme 
which the department adopts in fixing the amount of the post allow¬ 
ances for a given man in a given city ? 

Secretary Lansing. That has been done, I think, more or less in 
an arbitrary way from reports we have received as to the cost of 
living in these various capitals and what we know ourselves from 
reports of our officials that have visited those capitals. It is a very 
difficult thing to do accurately. I do not know that there is any 
rule you can lay down. It is more or less a rule of thumb. 

Mr. Rogers. It is a question of fact in each case ? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir. Each case has to be determined sep¬ 
arately and independently. 

Mr. Rogers. Take the case of the most expensive capital in the 
world and, we will say, our lowest-paid diplomatic or consular 
officer in that post. Would he need as much as 100 per cent added 
to his salary? 

Secretary Lansing. He might need a certain addition. 

Mr. Rogers. Would he get more than 100 per cent? 

Secretary Lansing. I do not think any of them have. That is all 
I can say. I remember in the case of Chile we had an increase in 
the cost of living of 250 per cent, was it not, Mr. Carr? 

Mr. Carr. I do not remember exactly. It was pretty high on ac¬ 
count of the difference in exchange. 

Secretary Lansing. So in that case we had to increase very largely. 

Mr. Rogers. Probably about 100 per cent, you guess? 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, I should think so" 

Mr. Rogers. Take the other extreme, a pretty well-paid consul in 
a relatively low-priced city. Would he get the same post allowance? 

Secretary Lansing. Probably not. He would probably get none. 
There are many of our consular officers who get none. 

Mr. Rogers. Can you give us an idea of what proportion of our 
consular officers receive post allowances and what proportion do not? 

Secretary Lansing. Prior to this year our consuls in the countries 
that were belligerent and in some of the neutral countries received 
post allowances, but of course we were so reduced this year that we 
had to be very careful about the allotment, and I do not think it has 
been the same. 

Mr. Rogers. Who actually does the fixing of the post allowances? 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPKIATION BILL. 31 

Secretary Lansing. It lias been done by Mr. Carr as to the Con¬ 
sular Service and Mr. Phillips handles it in reference to the Dip- 
lomatic Service. 

Mr. Rogers. Does consul “ A ” in London know the post allow- 
ace that consul “ B ” is receiving in Paris, and vice versa? 

Secretary Lansing. I doubt it. 

Mr. Care. Unless they happen to get copies of the hearings be- 
fore the Foreign Affairs Committee. 

Mr. Rogers. That was printed in the hearings two years ago. 
Would it be possible for you to put that into the hearings in connec¬ 
tion with your testimony, Mr. Carr? 

Mr. Carr. The consular figures have not been finally worked out 
on account of the exchange in Europe in its relation to the increased 
cost of living, has made it extremely difficult to get any scheme 
that would be finally satisfactory. 

Mr. Rogers. Under the present law, as I recall it, and certainly 
under this appropriation bill now before us, the China situation is 
separately adjusted. 

Secretary Lansing. Yes, it is quite a different problem. 

Mr. Rogers. I should like to inquire whether in the future the 
China situation will have to be cared for out of your post-allowance 
fund ? 

Secretary Lansing. For the time being until silver gets below 
16 to 1. 

Mr. Rogers. I thought that would take care of it. My inquiry 
was whether it would take care of the post-allowance fund, because 
it is taken care of in another part of the bill. 

Secretary Lansing. Oh, no. 

The Chairman. Does the committee desire to continue on or shall 
we adjourn? 

Mr Connally. Let us finish with the Secretary. 

Mr. Sabath. The Secretary is a busy man. 

Secretary Lansing. So far as I am concerned personally, I am 
through. 

Mr. Rogers. The provision to which I was referring relates only 
to the United States Court for China and does not cover the gen¬ 
eral situation. 

Mr. Begg. Mr. Secretary, on page 10 of the bill there is a reference 
to $700,000 together with the unexpended balance of 1920 that is not 
<used. How much unexpended balance will there be? 

. Secretary Lansing. What will there be in June? 

Mr. Begg. Yes; next June. 

Secretary Lansing. I am quite sure there will be a deficit rather 
than a balance. 

The Chairman. Mr. Secretary, in June we had hearings on the 
pogroms in Poland. The hearings were postponed until the com¬ 
mittee which was sent over there to investigate the matter had made 
a, report. Mr. Phillips appeared before the committee and promised 
that we would have a report in the course of a month. Of course, 
it was no fault of his that the report did not reach the State De¬ 
partment until about 10 days ago, I understand. 

Secretary Lansing. A short time ago. 


32 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


The Chairman. I have been frequently asked about that report 
by people who were interested. Is there any reason why it should 
not be given to the committee? 

Secretary Lansing. It is a report to the President, you see, and 
the President as yet has not been disposed to give it up. Of course, 
I have not had an opportunity to see the President to talk it over 
with him. Personally, I can see no reason why the report should 
not be made public. 

The Chairman. I think it is rather embarrassing to the commit¬ 
tee that that report is not available. 

Mr. Sabath. That is the committee of which Mr. Morgenthau 
is chairman? 

The Chairman. Yes. It was the committee on the pogroms in 
Poland. Now, it makes no difference which side it hurts, the Ameri¬ 
can people should have the facts. 

Secretary Lansing. I would like to have them made public my¬ 
self, but at the same time I can not make them public because you 
appreciate the fact that the President has the authority in the mat¬ 
ter. The last time I wrote him on the subject was just after the 
report was completed and he indicated that he had practically not 
examined the report and did not want anything done with it until 
he had, but I would be perfectly willing to put the matter up to him 
again. 

The Chairman. Now, in view of the fact that there has been 
public demonstrations in all large cities and that considerable ill- 
feeling has grown up between the Jews and the Poles, I think we 
should have the facts. 

Secretary Lansing. I will take the matter up. Now, is there any 
further information that you want that we can furnish you? 

Mr. Conn ally. This is foreign to the immediate question, but I 
would like to ask it for information. What is your regulation now T 
about the issuance of passports to Germany ? 

Secretary Lansing. We do not issue any. 

Mr. Connally. You do not issue any at all? 

Secretary Lansing. No, sir. We issue them to neighboring neutral 
countries and holders of them get into Germany from those countries. 

(Thereupon at 12.30 o’clock p. m. the committee adjourned until 
to-morrow, Thursday, January 8, 1920, at 10 o’clock a. m.) 


$ 


Committee on Foreign Affairs, 

House of Eepresentatives, 
Washington , D. C., Thursday , January 8 , 1920. 
The committee met at 10 o’clock a. m., Hon. Stephen G. Porter 
presiding. 

The Chairman. The committee this morning will hear Dr. L. S. 
Rowe, Department of State. 

STATEMENT OF DR. I. S. ROWE, CHIEF OF DIVISION OF LATIN- 
AMERICAN AFFAIRS, DEPARTMENT OF STATE. 

Mr. Rowe. Mr. Chairman, I have been requested to present to 
you four or five of the items in the bill covering the Third Pan- 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 33 

American Scientific Congress, and the Fifth International Confer¬ 
ence of American States, the International High Commission, and 
the appropriation for the building for the International Bureau of 
Trade-mark Registration at Habana, and the quota of the United 
States toward the maintenance of that bureau. 

The Chairman. What is the first? 

Mr. Rowe. The first in order is tlie International High Commis¬ 
sion, United States section, on page 20. 

May I recall to the members of the committee the fact that the 
International High Commission was the outcome of the first Pan 
American I inancial Congress held in 1915? The conference of 
1915 was called for the purpose of discussing the financial prob¬ 
lems concerning the countries of the American continent, because 
of the outbreak of the European war. The purpose of the confer¬ 
ence was to have the Secretary of the Treasury of the United States 
confer with the ministers of finance of the countries of Central and 
South America to exchange views and opinions with reference to 
the best method of solving the difficult problems that confronted 
the countries of the American continent by reason of the outbreak 
of the European war. 

In order to carry out the resolutions and conclusions of that con¬ 
ference an international high commission was formed, composed 
of national sections, each national section including nine prominent 
financiers and jurists of the respective countries, presided over by the 
minister of finance. The combination of all those national sections 
constituted the International High Commission. 

The great value of this commission has been that it has been 
able to secure the consideration in the respective national assemblies 
and legislatures of the draft conventions and resolutions adopted 
at the financial conference. One of the major difficulties of these 
international conferences, and particularly the Pan American con¬ 
ferences, has been that a number of resolutions and draft conven¬ 
tions have been adopted by the conference and no permanent or¬ 
ganization has been established to secure their adoption and en¬ 
forcement. An outgrowth of the first Pan American financial con¬ 
ference was the establishment of a kind of permanent standing 
committee whose main purpose was to secure in each country the 
adoption of the resolutions of the conference. 

The International High Commission met in the following year, 
1916, at Buenos Aires, to ascertain how far each national section 
had gone in securing the effective carrying out of its program. 

I may say that one of the most important matters with which this 
commission has had to deal has been the adoption of the interna¬ 
tional trade-mark registration convention and the establishment of 
two registration bureaus provided for by the convention; one bu¬ 
reau at Havana and the other bureau at Rio de Janeiro. The first 
of these bureaus began business about six months ago. 

You have probably seen the somewhat sensational disclosures 
made in the New York Times with reference to the piracy of Ameri¬ 
can trade-marks in Europe. That has been done, too, in Central 
and South America, and has been a very serious obstacle to the 
development of American trade with those countries. In some 
countries the local law gives to the person registering a trade- 

161477—20-3 


34 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

mark prior right to the use of that trade-mark and makes it impossi¬ 
ble for the real owner of the mark to export his goods to that coun¬ 
try without subjecting those goods to the liability of confiscation. 
For instance, we had one instance of a shipment of a large ‘con¬ 
signment of American motor trucks to Buenos Aires, and it was 
found that a German firm there, about one month before the arrival 
of these goods, had registered this trade-mark, which made it im¬ 
possible to land those goods without subjecting the real owner to 
civil liability for infringing the acquired rights of the prior regis¬ 
trant. 

The establishment of two international trade-mark registration 
bureaus, the Habana bureau for the entire northern tier of States, 
including the Central American States and the West Indies, and the 
establishment of the other bureau at Rio, will protect trade¬ 
marks throughout the American Continent. As a matter of fact, 
the United States is, from point of view of the expansion of 
commerce and the interests of trade, primarily interested in the 
establishment of those bureaus because of the fact that there is as 
yet comparatively little trade as between the South American coun¬ 
tries. They have not suffered by reason of the usurpation of trade¬ 
marks as between one another, but we have suffered very seriously 
and severely on account of this practice in some countries. 

To enumerate very briefly some of the other matters that the In¬ 
ternational High Commission has taken up, I may refer- 

The Chairman (interposing). Before you leave the trade-mark 
question, I think, possibly, some members of the committee might 
desire to ask you some questions. I know I do. 

As I understand you, if the owner of, say, Coca Cola shipped a 
cargo to Brazil, and some one a month before its arrival had taken 
out that trade-mark, the American merchant would be likely to 
have his goods confiscated ? 

Mr. Rowe. That is true of Argentina. 

The Chairman. Is that true of many of the South American 
countries ? 

Mr. Rowe. It is true of quite a number. I have not the list of the 
countries. 

The Chairman. That is immaterial. I merelv wanted to get the 
facts. 

Mr. Rowe. This International High Commission is attempting 
to create a method- 

The Chairman (interposing). Of protecting these trade-marks? 

Mr. Rowe. Yes; and has secured it. 

The Chairman. It has secured it? 

Mr. Rowe. The bureau at Habana is now functioning. 

I he Chairman. Has it the consent of the South American coun¬ 
tries ? * 

Mr. Rowe. Under the convention—the convention provided two 
bureaus, one in Habana and one in Rio—as soon as eight of the 
northern group of States ratified the convention, the Habana bureau 
became effective. 

For the establishment of the Rio bureau there is still necessary the 
number of two South American States, and we hope to secure that 
number within a very short time, so that the Rio bureau will also be 
established. The Rio bureau will not begin to function until two ad- 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 35 

ditional South American States have ratified the convention. The 
Habana bureau is now doing the work of both bureaus. 

The Chairman. And how is that ratification made— by legislative 
act? J 

Mr. Rowe. Yes; very much like our own method of ratification. 

Mr. Rogers. What States have already adhered to the convention. 
Doctor ? 

Mr. Rowe. United States, Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Guate¬ 
mala, Nicaragua, Honduras, Panama, Costa Rica, and Haiti. 

Mr. Rogers. All those are of the northern group? 

Mr. Rowe. Yes. Two in the northern group have not ratified it— 
Mexico and Salvador. 

In the southern group five countries have ratified the convention— 
Brazil, Ecuador, Paraguay, Bolivia, and Uruguay, and five have 
not—Argentina, Colombia, Chile, Peru, and Venezuela. 

Mr. Rogers. The other countries simply have not gotten around 
to it? 

Mr. Rowe. Some of them have not gotten around to it and in some 
of them there is opposition. 

Mr. Rogers. It apparently is true, is it not, Doctor, that of the 
southern group the countries which have not ratified are the ones 
most important in population and in trade, except Brazil? 

Mr. Rowe. That is true, and that is to be explained by reason of 
the fact that in some of those countries there are local interests that 
are not at all enthusiastic about the general protection of these trade¬ 
marks; and of course, it is a very important matter for American 
commerce, because I do not suppose there is any country in the world 
that has a property value in trade-marks in any way comparable to 
the United States, and if we once can secure this it will mean the re¬ 
moval of a very serious obstacle to American trade. 

Mr. Houghton. Is there no legal remedy ? 

Mr. Rowe. Of course, any country in which prior registration gives 
the property right to the trade-mark there is a legal remedy, if you 
can prove fraud. 

Mr. Houghton. It is not shown on the face ? 

Mr. Rowe. But the difficulty of proving fraud is very great, and 
the effect on the American manufacturer is that the moment he finds 
himself involved in litigation of that kind, it is a discouragement to* 
the expansion of his trade. 

Mr. Conn ally. In the absence of a treaty, would not the sov¬ 
ereignty of the country protect the resident in those matters ? 

Mr. Rowe. In the absence of a treaty, of course, it is a matter 
of legislation. 

Mr. Connally. There would be no legal right of a foreigner in 
a trade-mark within a country unless founded on a treaty? 

Mr. Rowe. That is right. 

Mr. Dickinson. Ought he not to get the approval of the trade¬ 
mark owner before registration? 

Mr. Rowe. No. For instance, if you register a trade-mark, the 
presumption is that you are the owner of that trade-mark. 

Mr. Dickinson. And do you not have to show that you are the 
owner of it before you register it? 


36 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Rowe. In showing that you are the owner, you do not have 
to show that somebody else in some other country owns the same 
trade-mark; that is the difficulty. 

The Chairman. On the other hand, if he has to go into the local 
courts and hire local lawyers and go into the proof of fraud which 
is always a very difficult matter, it discourages him and he is likely 
not to bother about the trade at all; is that about the situation? 

Mr. Rowe. Yes. In order not to take too much time of the com¬ 
mittee, I will review rapidly the matters with which the Interna¬ 
tional High Commission has concerned itself. 

The Chairman. Just before you leave that; in what way did 
we ratify this convention ? 

Mr. Rowe. We ratified it according to the usual constitutional pro¬ 
cedure, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate and the 
ratification by the President. 

The Chairman. When was that done? 

Mr. Rowe. 1911. 

The Chairman. Treaty Series, No. 626 . 

Mr. Rogers. Then it antedated the International High Commis¬ 
sion? 

Mr. Rowe. The trade-mark convention did—the convention was 
signed in 1910. 

Mr. Rogers. I had the impression that this was one of the achieve¬ 
ments of the International High Commission. 

Mr. Rowe. In a sense it was, because it was made the subject of 
extended consideration at the first conference of 1915 and at the 
conference of 1916. The difficulty was that while, of course, we 
might through diplomatic channels, urge upon our minister to bring 
to the attention of the minister of foreign affairs the importance of 
this, there were no groups of influential men who would start and 
work on this thing with their national respective Congresses; and 
this organization gave us a group of nine influential men in each 
country upon whom was placed the obligation of getting this through 
their legislature. 

Mr. Rogers. And if the other ratifications in South America and 
Central America come subsequent to the creation of the international 
conference ? 

Mr. Rowe. I am just trying now to give you the dates of ratifica¬ 
tion. It was ratified by seven countries in the northern group be¬ 
fore 1915—the United States, Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Nica¬ 
ragua. Guatemala, Panama, Honduras. It rested without attention 
until 1916. 

Mr. Rogers. And about as many countries have ratified since 1916. 

Mr. Ackerman. Doctor, may I ask who decided that Habana 
should be the location of the northern bureau? 

Mr. Roave. It was provided in the convention. The convention 
provided two bureaus—the northern bureau at Habana and the 
southern bureau at Rio. 

Another matter with which the commission has occupied itself i 
has been the ratification of a commercial travelers’ convention, which 
was proposed by the International High Commission at the meeting 
at Buenos Aires in 1916. 

One of the difficulties with which our merchants have had to deal 
has been the fact that in quite a few of the countries of South S 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


37 


America there have been a great many local license fees to be paid in 
the Province, and sometimes in each municipality, by commercial 
travelers. It has been a very heavy charge on foreign trade and 
expansion, and the purpose of this convention was to secure a defi¬ 
nite national charge, if any charge was to be made at all, so that 
our manufacturers would know what charge they would have to meet 
if they sent a representative to Chile, Bolivia, Argentina, or any 
other country. 

The convention has been signed by Uruguay, August 27, 1918, and 
since then by Guatemala, Salvador, Venezuela, Paraguay, Nicaragua, 
Ecuador. Honduras, and Haiti, and other countries are ready to sign, 
but the diplomatic representatives in Washington are awaiting full 
powers. Brazil has approved the treaty in principle, but has not 
yet authorized the signing. Argentina, Cuba, Bolivia, and Co¬ 
lombia are studying it. Chile and Costa Kica are the two countries 
which have made no decision. 

Mr. Ackerman. National influence or Teuton influence in Chile? 

Mr. Rowe. The treaty is actually in force between the United 
States and Uruguay, the United States and Guatemala, the United 
States and Salvador, the United States and Venezuela, and so on. 

Mr. Ackerman. Perhaps I did not make my question plain. I 
rather gleaned you stated that in Chile and Costa Rica they had 
made no decision and I asked whether it was because of national 
influence or Teuton influence that prevented this? 

Mr. Row t e. I think it is local influence, in the sense of provincial 
and municipal influence. In Chile the national Government has all 
the important sources of revenue; the localities have very little reve¬ 
nue and very limited sources of revenue. The result is that they 
oppose the elimination of any one source of revenue. The opposition 
is entirely local. 

Mr. Houghton. It is not aimed at any one country at all; it applies 
to all countries alike. 

Mr. Rowe. It would apply to all countries, but, of course, it only 
applies as between the United States and those countries, because they 
have not negotiated this treaty with one another. Of course, that is 
not very important for them, because very few of them send their 
commercial travelers to another South American country, the trade 
being between the United States and that country or between Europe 
and that country. 

Mr. Ackerman. Have they, may I ask, negotiated this sort of 
treaty between Great Britain and Holland and France? 

Mr. Rowe. No. 

Mr. Ackerman. We are the only country enjoying these privileges 
for commercial travelers? 

Mr. Rowe. The draft convention was formulated and presented at 
the 1916 meeting at Buenos Aires of the International High Com¬ 
mission, and it has not been taken up with any other country. 

The Chairman. In connection with your testimony in regard to 
that matter, I would like to make a part of the record the agreement 
between the countries, and also in regard to the trade-marks. I 
think those can be abbreviated very materially, so that the committee 
will have the meat of the agreements. 

Mr. Rowe. Suppose we submit a summary to be put into the 
record ? 


o8 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


The Chairman. We would appreciate that. 

(The summaries of agreements referred to, submitted by Mr. Rowe, 
are here printed in full, as follows:) 

CONVENTION FOR THE PROTECTION OF TRADE-MARKS. 

Their Excellencies the Presidents of the United States of America, the Aigen- 
tine Republic, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominican Republic, 
Ecuador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, 
Peru, Salvador, Uruguay, and Venezuela: > 

Being desirous that their respective countries may be represented at the 
Fourth International American Conference, have sent thereto the following 
delegates, duly authorized to approve the recommendations, resolutions, con¬ 
ventions, and treaties which they might deem advantageous to the interest of 

America: . 

United States of America: Henry White, Enoch H. Crowder, Lewis Nixon, 
John Bassett Moore, Bernard Moses, Lamar C. Quintero, Paul Samuel Reinsch, 
David Ivinley. 

Argentine Republic: Antonio Bermejo, Eduardo L. Bidau, Manuel A. Montes 
de Oca, Epifanio Portela, Carlos Rodriguez Larreta, Carlos Salas, Jos£ A, 
Terry, Estanislao S. Zeballos. 

United States of Brazil: Joaquim Murtinho, Domicio da Gama, Jos§ L. 
Almeida Nogueira. Olavo Bilnc, Gastao da Cunha, Herculano de Freitas. 

Republic of Chile: Miguel Cruchaga Tocornal, Emilio Bello Codecido, Anibal 
Cruz Diaz, Beltran Mathieu. 

Republic of Colombia : Roberto Ancizar. 

Republic of Costa Rica: Alfredo Volio. 

Republic of Cuba: Carlos Garcia Velez, Rafael Montoro y Valdes. Gonzalo de 
Quesada y Arostegui, Antonio Gonzalo Perez, Jose M. Carbonell. 

Dominican Republic: America Lugo. 

Republic of Ecuador: Alejandro Cardenas. 

Republic of Guatemala : Luis Toledo Herrarte, Manuel Arroyo, Mario Es- 
trade. 

Republic of Haiti: Constantin Fouchard. 

Republic of Honduras: Luis Lazo Arriaga. 

Mexican United States: Victoriano Salado Alvarez, Luis Perez Verdia, An¬ 
tonio Ramos Pedrueza, Roberto A. Esteva Ruiz. 

Republic of Nicaragua: Manuel Perez Alonso. 

Republic of Panama: Belisario Porras. 

Republic of Paraguay: Teodosio Gonzalez, Jose P. Montero. 

Republic of Peru: Eugenio Larrabure y Unanue, Carlos Alvarez Calderon, 
Jose Antonio de Lavelle y Pardo. 

Republic of Salvador: Federico Mejia, Fr&ncisco Martinez Suarez. 

Republic of Uruguay: Gonzalo Ramirez, Carlos M. de Pena, Antonio M. 
Rodriguez, Juan ,Tos6 Amezaga. 

United States of Venezuela : Manuel Diaz Rodriguez, Cesar Zumeta. 

Who, after having presented their credentials and the same having been 
found in due and proper form, have agreed upon the following Convention 
for the Protection of Trade-Marks. 

Article I. The signatory nations enter into this convention for the protection 
of trade-marks and commercial names. 

Art. IT. Any mark duly registered in one of the signatory States shall be 
considered as registered also in the other States of the union, without preju¬ 
dice to the rights of third persons and to the provisions of the laws of each 
State governing the same. 

Tn order to enjoy the benefit of the foregoing, the manufacturer or merchant 
interested in the registry of the mark must pay, in addition to the fees or 
charges fixed by the laws of the State in which application for registration is 
first made, the sum of $50 gold, which sum shall cover all the expenses of both 
bureaus for the international registration in all the signatory States. 

Art. III. The deposit of a trade-mark in one of the signatory States pro- 
dimes in favor of the depositor a right of priority for the period of six months, 
so as to enable the depositor to make the deposit in the other States. 

Therefore the deposit made subsequently and prior to the expiration of this 
period can not be annulled by acts performed in the interval, especially by 
another deposit, by publication, or by the use of the mark. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


39 


Art. I V. The following shall be considered as trade-mark: Any sign, emblem, 
or especial name that merchants or manufacturers may adopt or apply to their 
goods or products in order to distinguish them from those of other manufac¬ 
turers or merchants who manufacture or deal in articles of the same kind. 

Art. V. The following can not be adopted or used as trade-mark: National, 
provincial, or municipal flags or coats-of-arms; immoral or scandalous figures; 
distinctive marks which may have been obtained by others or which may give 
rise to confusion with other marks; the general classification of articles; 
pictures or names of persons without their permission; and any design which 
may have been adopted as an emblem by any fraternal or humanitarian asso¬ 
ciation. 

The foregoing provisions shall be construed without prejudice to the particu¬ 
lar provisions of the laws of each State. 

Art. VI. All questions which may arise regarding the priority of the deposit 
or the adoption of a trade-mark shall be decided with due regard to the date 
of the deposit in the State in which the first application was made therefor. 

Art. VII. The ownership of a trade-mark includes the right to enjoy the 
benefits thereof and the right of assignment or transfer in whole or in part 
of its ownership or its use in accordance with the provisions of the laws of the 
respective States. 

Art. VIII. The falsification, imitation, or unauthorized use of a trade-mark, 
as also the false representation as to the origin of a product, shall be prose¬ 
cuted by the interested party in accordance with the laws of the State wherein 
the offense is committed. 

For the effects of this article, interested parties shall be understood to be 
any producer, manufacturer, or merchant engaged in the production, manu¬ 
facture, or traffic of said product, or in the case of false representation of 
origin, one doing business in the locality falsely indicated as that of origin, 
or in the territory in which said locality is situated. 

Art. IX. Any person in any of the signatory States shall have the right to 
petition and obtain in any of the States, through its competent judicial author¬ 
ity, the annulment of the registration of a trade-mark, when he shall have 
made application for the registration of that mark, or of any other mark, calcu¬ 
lated to be confused, in such State, with the mark in whose annulment he is 
interested upon proving— 

(a) That the mark the registration whereof he solicits has been employed 
or used within the country prior to the employment or use of the mark regis¬ 
tered by the person registering it or by the persons from whom he has derived 
title; 

(&) That the registrant had knowledge of the ownership, employment, or 
use in any of the signatory States of the mark of the applicant the annul¬ 
ment whereof is sought prior to the use of the registered mark by the registrant 
or by those from whom he has derived title; 

(c) That the registrant had no right to the ownership, employment, or use 
of the registered mark on the date of its deposit: 

(d) That the registered mark had not been used or employed by the regis¬ 
trant or by his assigns within the term fixed by the laws of the State in which 
the registration shall have been made. 

Art. X. Commercial names shall be protected in all the States of the union, 
without deposit or registration, whether the same form part of a trade-mark 
or not. 

Art. XI. For the purposes indicated in the present convention a union of 
American nations is hereby constituted, which shall act through two interna¬ 
tional bureaus established one in the city of Habana, Cuba, and the other in 
the city of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, acting in complete accord with each other. 

Art. XII. The international bureaus shall have the following duties: 

1. To keep a register of the certificates of ownership of trade-mark issued 
bv anv of the signatory States. 

*2. To collect such reports and data as relate to the protection of intellectual 
and industrial property ard to publish and circulate them among the nations of 
the union, as well as to furnish them whatever special information they may 
need upon this subject. 

3. To encourage the study and publicity of the questions relating to the 
protection of intellectual and industrial property; to publish for this purpose 
one or more official reviews, containing the full texts or digest of all docu¬ 
ments forwarded to the bureaus by the authorities of the signatory States. 

The Governments of said States shall send to the International American 
Bureaus their official publications which contain the announcements of the 


40 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


registrations of trade-marks, and commercial names, and the grants of patents 
and privileges as well as the judgments rendered by the respective courts con¬ 
cerning the invalidity of trade-marks and patents. 

4. To communicate to the Governments of the union any difficulties or obsta¬ 
cles that may oppose or delay the effective application of this convention. 

5. To aid the Governments of the signatory States in the preparations of 
international conferences for the study of legislation concerning industrial 
property, and to secure such alterations as it may be proper to propose in the 
regulations of the union, or in treaties in force to protect industrial property. 
In case such conferences take place, the directors of the bureaus shall have 
the right to attend the meetings and there to express their opinions, but not 
to vote. 

6. To present to the Governments of Cuba and of the United States of Brazil, 
respectively, yearly reports of their labors which shall be communicated at 
the same time to all the Governments of the other States of the union. 

7. To initiate and establish relations with similar bureaus and with the 
scientific and industrial associations and institutions for the exchange of pub¬ 
lications, information, and data conducive to the progress of the protection 
of industrial property. 

S. To investigate cases where trade-marks, designs, and industrial models 
have failed to obtain the recognition of registration provided for by this con¬ 
vention, on the part of the authorities of any one of the States forming the 
union, and to communicate the facts and reasons to the Government of the 
country of origin and to interested parties. 

9. To cooperate as agents for each one of the Governments of the signatory 
States before the respective authorities for the better performance of any act 
tending to promote or accomplish the ends of this convention. 

Art. XIII. The bureau established in the city of Habana. Cuba, shall have 
charge of the registration of trade-marks coming from the United States of 
America, Mexico, Cuba, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Hon¬ 
duras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Guatemala, and Panama. 

The bureau established in the city of Rio de Janeiro shall have charge of 
the registration of trade-marks coming from Brazil. Uruguay, the Argentine 
Republic, Paraguay, Bolivia, Chile, Peru, Ecuador, Venezuela, and Colombia. 

Art. XIV. The two international bureaus shall be considered as one, and for 
the purpose of the unification of the registrations it is provided: 

( a ) Both shall have the same books and the same accounts kept under an 
identical system. 

(b) Copies shall be reciprocally transmitted weekly from one to the other 
of all applications, registrations, communications, and other documents affect¬ 
ing the recognition of the rights of owners of trade-marks. 

Art. XV. The international bureaus shall be governed by identical regula¬ 
tions, formed with the concurrence of the Governments of the Republic of 
Cuba and of the United States of Brazil and approved by all the other signatory 
States. 

Their budgets, after being sanctioned by the said Governments, shall be 
defrayed by all the signatory States in the same proportion as that established 
for the International Bureau of the American Republics at Washington, and 
in this particular they shall be placed under the control of those Governments 
within whose territories they are established. 

The international bureaus may establish such rules of practice and pro¬ 
cedure, not inconsistent with the terms of this convention, as they may deem 
necessary and proper to give effect to its provisions. 

Art. XVI. The Governments of the Republic of Cuba and of the United 
States of Brazil shall proceed with the organization of the Bureaus of the In¬ 
ternational Union as herein provided, upon the ratification of this convention 
by at least two-thirds of the' nations belonging to each group. 

The simultaneous establishment of both bureaus shall not be necessary; 
one only may be established if there be the number of adherent Governments 
provided for above. 

Art. XVII. The treaties on trade-marks previously concluded by and between 
the signatory States shall be substituted by the present convention from the 
date of its ratification, as far as the relations between the signatory States are 
concerned. 

Art. XVIII. The ratifications or adhesion of the American States to the 
present convention shall be communicated to the Government of the Argentine 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 41 


Republic, uhich shall lay tlieiu before the other States of the union. These 
communications shall take the place of an exchange of ratifications. 

Art. XIX. Any signatory State that may see fit to withdraw from the present 
convention shall so notify the Government of the Argentine Republic, which 
shall communicate tins fact to the other States of the union, ard one year 
after the receipt of such communication this convention shall cease with regard 
to the State that shall have withdrawn. 

In witness whereof the plenipotentiaries and delegates sign this convention 
and affix to it the seal of the Fourth International American Conference. 

Made and signed in the city of Buenos Aires, on the 20th day of August, 
in the year 1910, in Spanish, English, Portuguese, and French, and filed in the 
ministry of foreign affairs of the Argentine Republic in order that certified 
copies may be made, to be forwarded through appropriate diplomatic channels 
to each one of the signatory nations: 

For the United States of America: 

Henry White. 

Enoch H. Crowder. 

Lewis Nixon. 

John Bassett Moore. 

Bernard Moses. 

Lamar C. Quintero. 

Paul S. Reinsch. 

, David Kinley. 

For the Argentine Republic: 

Antonio Bermejo. 

Eduardo L. Bidau. 

Manuel A. Montes de Oca. 

Epifanio Portela. 

Carlos Salas. 

Jose A. Terry. 

Estanislao S. Zeballos. 

For the United States of Brazil: 

JOAQUIM MuRTINHO. 

Domicio da Gama. 

Jose L. Almeida Norgueira. 

Olavo Bilac. 

Gastao da Cunha. 

Herculano de Freitas. 


For the Republic of Chile: 

Miguel Ceuchaga Tocornal. 
Emilio Bello Codecido. 

AnIbal Cruz Diaz. 

Beltran Mathieu. 

For the Republic of Colombia : 

Roberto Ancizar. 

For the Republic of Costa Rica: 

Alfredo Volio. 

For the Republic of Cuba: 

Carlos Garcia Velez. 

Rafael Montoro y Valdes. 
Gonzalo de Quesada y Arostegui. 
Antonio Gonzalo Perez. 

.Tosf: M. Carbonell. 

For the Dominican Republic: 
Americo Lugo. 

For the Republic of Ecuador: 
Alejandro Cardenas. 


CONVENTION CONCERNING COMMERCIAT, TRAVELERS. 

The United States of America and-, being desirous to foster the devel¬ 

opment of commerce between them and to increase the exchange of commodities 
by facilitating the work of traveling salesmen, have agreed to conclude a 
convention for that purpose and to that end appointed as their plenipoten¬ 
tiaries : 

The President of the United States of America,-, and the Presi¬ 
dent of -, who, having communicated to each other their full powers, 

which were found to be in due form, have agreed upon the following articles: 

Article I. Manufacturers, merchants, and traders domiciled within the juris¬ 
diction of one of the high contracting parties may operate as commercial trav¬ 
elers either personally or by means of agents or employees within the jurisdic¬ 
tion of the other high contracting party on obtaining from the latter, upon pay¬ 
ment of a single fee, a license which shall be valid throughout its entire terri¬ 
torial jurisdiction. 

In case either of the high contracting parties shall be engaged in war, it 
reserves to itself the right to prevent from operating within its jurisdiction 
under the > provisions of this convention, or otherwise, enemy nationals or other 
aliens whose presence it may consider prejudicial to public order and national 
safety. 

Art. II. In order to secure the license above mentioned, the applicant must 
obtain from the country of domicile of the manufacturers, merchants, and 
traders represented a certificate attesting his character as a commercial trav¬ 
eler. This certificate, which shall be issued by the authority to be designated 
in each country for the purpose, shall be viseed by the consul of the country 
in which the applicant proposes to operate, and the authorities of the latter 






42 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


shall, upon the presentation of such certificate, issue to the applicant the na¬ 
tional license as provided in Article I. 

Art. III. A commercial traveler may sell his samples without obtaining a 
special license as an importer. 

Art. IV. Samples without commercial value shall be admitted to entry free of 
duty. 

Samples marked, stamped, or defaced in such manner that they can not be 
put to other uses shall be considered as objects without commercial value. 

Art. V. Samples having commercial value shall be provisionally admitted 
upon giving bond for the payment of lawful duties if they shall not have been 
withdrawn from the country within a period of six months. 

Duties shall be paid on such portion of the samples as shall not have been so 
withdrawn. 

Art. VI. All customs formalities shall be simplified as much as possible with 
a view to avoid delay in the dispatch of samples. 

Art. VII. Peddlers and other salesmen who vend directly to the consumer, 
even though they have not an established place of business in the country in 
which they operate, shall not be considered as commercial travelers, but shall 
be subject to the license fees levied on business of the kind which they carry on. 

Art. VIII. No license shall be required of: 

(a) Persons traveling only to study trade and its needs, even though they 
initiate commercial relations, provided they do not make sales of merchandise. 

( b ) Persons operating through local agencies which pay the license fee or 
other imposts to which their business is subject. 

(c) Travelers who are exclusively buyers. 

Art. IX. Any concessions affecting any of the provisions of the present con¬ 
vention that may hereafter be granted by either high contracting party, either 
by law or by treaty or convention, shall immediately be extended to the other 
party. 

Art. X. This convention shall be ratified ; and the ratifications shall be ex¬ 
changed at-within two years, or sooner if possible. 

The present convention shall remain in force until the end of six months 
after either of the high contracting parties shall have given notice to the other 
of its intention to terminate the same, each of them reserving to itself the 
right of giving such notice to the other at any time. And it is hereby agreed 
between the parties that on the expiration of six months after such notice 
shall have been received by either of them from the other party as above men¬ 
tioned this convention shall altogether cease and terminate. 

In testimony whereof the respective plenipotentiaries have signed these arti¬ 
cles and have thereunder affixed their seals. 

Done in explicate at-,-. 

[seal.] -. 

[seal.] -. 


MEMORANDUM ON PROPOSED TREATY GOVERNING COMMERCIAL TRAVELERS. 

p 

The purpose of this treaty is to facilitate the operations of commercial trav¬ 
elers and thus to foster trade. The treaty provides for the issue of a certificate 
attesting the traveler’s character so far as concerns the exercise of his particular 
function. 

The question of regulations for commercial travelers may be considered with 
reference, first, to the fees and rules imposed upon the travelers themselves; 
and, second, to the restrictions imposed upon the importation and sale of their 
samples. Few of the National Governments in America levy taxes on com¬ 
mercial travelers, but in many cases Provinces and even municipalities assess 
taxes which range from a mere nominal fee to three or four hundred dollars. 

It is understood that such taxes are intended not exclusively for revenue but 
also in order to equalize the conditions of competition. For example, advertising 
matter carried by commercial travelers is generally taxed, with a view fio protect 
the domestic printing industry. Local business houses wish to be protected at 
least to the extent of offsetting the occupational taxes which they are required 
to pay. 

The objection to this system rests on sound economic theory familiar through¬ 
out the commercial world. It is clear that the removal of local restrictions and 
fees will encourage the presence and activity of the representatives of modern 
industry and will thus proportionately stimulate the importation and exporta¬ 
tion of merchandise. An opportunity will be afforded to the merchant classes 











DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


43 


to increase their profits through the introduction and sale of new articles, while 
the customs duties levied thereon will accrue to the benefit of the entire com¬ 
munity. The experience of leading commercial nations has shown that the best 
interests of a country are not served by taxation which strikes at a class 
merely because it is easily reached. Most nations have found it advantageous to 
take a national view of the operations of commercial travelers. So long as 
varying local burdens exist, salesmen will naturally seek only attractive oppor¬ 
tunities, and as a result the Provinces which most need to develop their com¬ 
merce may receive the least attention. If taxes are to be imposed upon com¬ 
mercial travelers for reasons of fiscal necessity, let them be national, and let 
the National Government distribute the proceeds equitably among the several 
Provinces. 

As to the persons entitled to enjoy the benefits of the proposed treaty, the 
International High Commission unanimously agreed that peddlers and others 
selling directly to the consumer should be excluded since they enter into direct 
competition with local retail merchants. For a different reason, travelers who 
are exclusively buyers and travelers who are studying the means of improving 
trade do not come within the purview of the treaty, their work not being in 
any sense that of salesmen. 

With reference to the samples of commercial travelers the treaty proposes 
that “ samples without commercial value shall be admitted to entry free of 
duty.” A definition is included of what is conceived to be a sample having no 
commercial value, namely, one that has been marked or stamped or defaced 
in such a way as not to be capable of sale or of other normal use. Occasionally 
samples without value, the salability of which has previously been destroyed, 
have been subjected to the ordinary customs duties. 

It is obvious that samples should not be sold without payment of customs 
duties within the jurisdiction of the country into which they are brought. The 
treaty accordingly provides that upon giving bond for the payment of such 
duties, samples may be admitted free for six months, after which period any 
part not withdrawn becomes liable to taxation. The treaty does not require 
the traveler to remove his samples through the same port by which he entered 
the country, but this and various other details are not expressly dealt with, it 
being assumed that signatories to the treaty in their regulations will carry it 
into effect in that spirit of international comity and commercial liberality in 
which it has been conceived. 


the international gold clearance fund convention. 

Whereas experience has shown that the payment of debts arising in the course 
of commercial and financial transactions is often impeded and rendered diffi¬ 
cult by reason of circumstances which interfere with and temporarily render 
impracticable the safe transportation of gold from one country to another, in 
consequence of which trade is deranged, values are rendered uncertain, and 
financial loss is incurred, the high contracting parties, being desirous to guard 
against such grave inconveniences, have decided to conclude a convention for 
that purpose, and to that end have appointed as their respective plenipoten¬ 
tiaries: . , .. _ 

The President of the United States of America,-, and the 1 resi¬ 
dent of the Republic of-, who, having exhibited to each other their full 

powers, which were found to be in due form, have agreed upon the following 
<irt.idos! 

Articie 1 With a view to stabilize exchange and facilitate the settlement of 
balances, the high contracting parties agree that all deposits of gold, made in 
banks designated for the purposes of this convention within the jurisdiction of 
either of them, for the purpose of paying debts incurred in the jurisdiction of 
the other, in the course of private commercial and financial transactions, shall 
be treated by the respective governments as constituting an international fund, 
to be used for the sole purpose of effecting exchange. 

To this end the high contracting parties agree never to appropriate any ot 
the monevs included in such fund; and they furthermore engage, each within 
its own jurisdiction, to guarantee the fund, in any and all circumstances, in war 
as well as in peace, against seizure by any public authority as well as against 
impairment bv or as the result of any political action or change whatsoever 

Art IT The high contracting parties agree to act as trustees ot the fund 
mentioned in the preceding article, and for this purpose each of them will des¬ 
ignate a bank within its own jurisdiction to hold any part of the fund theie ex- 





44 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


isting as joint custorian with such person or persons or such institution as the 
high contracting parties may concur in appointing for that purpose; and the 
high contracting parties further agree to invite other countries, with which 
either of them may have concluded similar conventions, to appoint representa¬ 
tives to take part in such joint custodianship. 

Such joint custodians shall hold the moneys so intrusted to them, as part 
of the fund, subject to the order of the creditors for whom the fund is held. 

Art. III. The details of the practical operations of the fund shall he regulated 
and determined by agreement between the designated depositary banks, and in 
order to simplify and facilitate such operations the high contracting parties- 
agree to take into consideration the adoption of a uniform exchange standard, 
permitting the interchangeability of their gold coins, for which purpose they 
recommend the adoption of gold coins which shall be either a multiple or a sim¬ 
ple fraction of a unit consisting of 0.33437 gram of gold 0.900 tine. 

Art. IV. This convention shall be ratified, and the ratification shall be ex¬ 
changed at-within two years, or sooner if possible. 

Each high contracting party reserves the right to denounce this convention 
at any time, it being, however, stipulated that the convention shall remain in 
force for one year after notice of termination shall have been given by either 
high contracting party to the other, and that on the expiration of the term of 
one year after such notice the said convention shall altogether cease and ter¬ 
minate: Provided , That the guaranty of the fund herein given by each of the 
high contracting parties shall continue in full force and effect so long as any 
part of the fund on deposit within its jurisdiction at the date of the termina¬ 
tion of this convention shall remain unliquidated. 

In testimony whereof the respective plenipotentiaries have signed these 
articles and have thereunto affixed their seals. 

Done in-copies, at —— this-day of-, 1919. 

[ SEAL. ] -. 

[SEAL.] -. 


MEMORANDUM CONCERNING UNIFORM CLASSIFICATION OF INTERNATIONAL FOREIGN 

TRADE STATISTICS. 

The difficulties of comparing foreign trade statistics published by the 
various countries of the world with the United States statistics, or with each 
other, have long been recognized. Lack of uniformity in classification of 
commodities is probably the principal, although by no means the only, obstacle 
to an intelligent comparison. Import statistics necessarily follow largely the 
classification of the tariff laws constructed to meet the particular needs of 
each country, and a comparison of the export statistics of the country of 
shipment with the import statistics of the country of destination frequently 
shows large discrepancies. 

The different methods of arriving at the values of imports and exports 
must be kept in mind. Some countries include in the import values the cost of 
delivery from the country of shipment to the country of destination, while 
others, instead, show the value in the foreign country from whence imported, 
exclusive of shipping expense. There is not so much variation in the systems 
of arriving at values of exports, most countries using as a basis the wholesale 
prices in the exporting country plus freight to the border point of shipment. 

Schedule adopted at the International Statistical Congress at Brussels .—The 
desirability of a uniform classification has been pointed out on numerous 
occasions, and the advantages to be gained are unquestioned. This problem 
has been the subject of discussion at various meetings of international customs 
and statistical conferences. The International Customs Conference, held in 
Paris in 1900, recommended that the various countries unite on a common 
statistical classification covering the most important articles, to serve as a 
basis foi international statistics. At the International Statistical Conference 
held at Brussels, in 1910, a tentative classification was drawn up and referred 
to the various governments represented for further consideration. At the 
session of the International Statistical Congress at Brussels, in 1913, a schedule 
consisting of 186 classifications was adopted. In a formal convention ratified 
b*v ^ ie principal European and 13 American countries it was stipulated that 
each country in addition to publishing statistics of imports and exports ac¬ 
cording to a classification suited to its own needs, would furnish annually to an 
international bureau of commercial statistics to be located at Brussels reports 













DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


45 


of imports and exports in accordance with the international classification. 
This international bureau was to be under the direction of the Belgian Gov¬ 
ernment. and supported by pro rata contributions from the countries repre¬ 
sented or thereafter agreeing to the convention. The United States and six 
other American countries, which were not represented at the conference, have 
since then expressed their approval and agreed to furnish the annual reports. 

The European war interfered with the establishment of the proposed inter¬ 
national bureau, but in American countries the project has not been lost sight 
of. The International High Commission, organized under the direction of the 
Secretary of the Treasury in accordance with a recommendation of the first 
Pan American Conference held at Washington in 1915, has been active in 
keeping this matter before the Latin American Republics. The international 
classification has been translated into Spanish and submitted to the several 
countries with the suggestion that their statistical classifications be arranged 
in accordance therewith. 

Tim international schedule of 1S6 classifications is necessarily general in 
character, the lack of detail in manufactured goods being especially noticeable; 
but this defect will be corrected in time. It represents a compromise between 
the different governments represented, with a view of making it possible to 
condense into it the more or less elaborate classifications of imports of the 
larger European countries and of avoiding an excessive amount of labor in 
the preparation of the annual reports. It is, however, the first step toward 
uniformity and offers distinct advantages not only in the field of foreign 
trade statistics, but also as a possible step for bringing about closer uniformity 
in customs regulations, at least in American countries. (Reprint from Com¬ 
merce Reports, Jan. 6, 1919.) 

The Chairman. By the way, how does an European country pro¬ 
tect its trade-marks in South America? 

Mr. Rowe. The only system that is enforced is what is known as 
the Berne Convention. The difficulty with the operation of the 
Berne Convention is that it does not adequately protect an owner of 
a trade-mark who finds that a third party has registered that trade 
mark prior to his application for register, and the result is that 
there has been a great deal of dissatisfaction on the part of European 
manufacturers in their trade with South American countries. Of 
course, we have a very much greater interest at stake, because for 
some reason or other, due largely to the enormous advertising of 
our manufacturers, our trade-marks are worth more than those of 
other countries. For instance, I have here a telegram from the 
secretary of the National Foreign Trade Council in which he says 
that the present time seems opportune to begin a drive on the part of 
the commercial interests to secure widespread adoption in Europe 
and elsewhere of the principles of the International Trade-mark 
Convention, and offers the cooperation of the council in initiating 
such a movement. 

What they would like to do is to secure the same kind of protec¬ 
tion which this convention secures for them in Central America and 
South America, in Europe as well. 

I am afraid if I go into much detail with reference to the other 
questions that it will take too much time. I just want to refer to 
the list of agreements and conventions to which the International 
High Commission has addressed itself. The third task upon which 
the various sections of the commission have been engaged has been 
the International Gold Clearance Fund Convention. It was proposed 
at the Buenos Aires meeting of 1916. The purpose of this conven¬ 
tion was to avoid the constant physical shipment of gold between 
the United States and the countries of Central and South America 
with the risks and expense incidental thereto. 


46 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Briefly, the convention provides for what might be called two 
strong boxes, one in the United States and one in the country with 
which we have the convention ; and then instead of constant ship¬ 
ment of gold to cover unpaid balances, we have statements made at 
stated intervals. In other words it provides for an agreement, for 
instance, with the National Bank of Buenos Aires and the Federal 
Reserve banks of the United States, that if a person at Buenos Aires 
has a payment to make in New York, he may deposit that payment 
in gold or its equivalent, with the Banco de la Nacion at Buenos 
Aires, and upon receipt of telegraphic advice that same has been de¬ 
posited, the New York bank will pay to the creditor in the United 
States the equivalent. Then at the end of a certain period, say at the 
end of six months, if the balance of trade is payable to the United 
States, a balance will be struck and the surplus or balance shipped to 
the United States. In other words, it will avoid the constant ship¬ 
ment to and fro. 

That convention is still in its early stages, because it requires a 
considerable campaign of education in order to accustom banking 
interests to any new system. The general principle of the convention 
has been approved, because in a great many of the legislatures of 
South America, in consideration of treaties the national legislation 
adopts the plan of first approving a treaty in principle, and then 
proceeding to the discussion of its details. The treaty has been ap¬ 
proved in” principle by Brazil, Uruguay, Ecuador, Honduras, Nica¬ 
ragua, and Peru. It has been signed by Paraguay, Guatemala, 
Haiti, and Panama. 

The Chairman. Before you leave that, I notice that the agreement 
provides this convention shall be ratified two years or sooner if pos¬ 
sible. 

Has there been any effort to extend the time of the ratification? 

Mr. Rowe. This clause means that ratifications shall be exchanged 
within two years of date of signature of treaty. 

The Chairman. I merely wanted the facts, because, as I read this, 
the two years has expired. 

Mr. McGuire. That is simply a blank form, Mr. Chairman; that 
is proposed to each of the countries. That would run, of course, two 
years from the day of signature. In the case of Paraguay it was 
signed two or three months ago and within two years’ time it must 
be ratified or it automatically dies. 

The Chairman. I merely called your attention to that. 

Mr. Dickinson. Are you being cooperated with in this matter by 
the foreign banking companies of the United States and the South 
American countries? 

Mr. Rowe. Very closely. 

Mr. Dickinson. And they are in sympathy with this movement? 

Mr. Rowe. Yes. I think as an indication of that the American 
Bankers Association, the American Bar Association, and the United 
States Chamber of Commerce have appointed special committees to 
cooperate with the International High Commission, and in one of 
the most important matters to which I want to call the attention of 
the committee presently, the United States Chamber of Commerce 
has undertaken to carry out in detail one of the recommendations 
made by the International High Commission and one of the agree¬ 
ments reached at the bankers’ convention of 1916, namely, the arbitra- 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 47 

tion of commercial disputes. As you know, there is always consider¬ 
able reluctance on the part of American manufacturers and export¬ 
ers to enter into litigation in foreign countries. There has been de¬ 
veloped in the United States a system of arbitration as between 
chambers of commerce, in cases of disputes between buyer and seller, 
and at the Buenos Aires conference it was proposed to extend that in¬ 
ternationally. 

Mr. Chairman. May I interrupt you to ask you a question, Mr. 
Rowe? According to this record, Hon. Paul M. Warburg has 
drafted this agreement. He was at one time a member of the 
Federal Reserve and is now acting as one of the commissioners. So 
that would indicate that the banking interests in the country were 
quite favorable. 

Mr. Rowe. I will say at the meeting of the International High 
Commission at which these conventions were considered the repre¬ 
sentatives of the United States were Mr. McAdoo, chairman of the 
delegation; Senator Fletcher; Mr. Warburg; Andrew J. Peters, 
former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury and now mayor of Bos¬ 
ton; Mr. Archibald Kains, president of the American Foreign Bank¬ 
ing Corporation; Mr. Samuel Untermyer; and Mr. John H. Fahey. 

With reference to this arbitration of commercial disputes between 
citizens of the United States and citizens of other American coun¬ 
tries— 

The Chairman. That is No. 4. 

Mr. Rowe. This is an agreement, however, which is entered into 
between chambers of commerce; it is not entered into as between gov¬ 
ernments. The purpose which the International High Commission 
had in mind was to facilitate the settlement, on a basis which would 
inspire complete confidence in our manufacturers and merchants, of 
any commercial disputes that might arise between them and their 
customers in these countries. An agreement of this character has 
been entered into between the United States Chamber of Commerce 
and the National Chambers of Commerce of Argentina and Uru¬ 
guay; in Ecuador with the Chamber of Commerce of the City of 
Guayaquil, w T hich is the chief commercial center in Ecuador; with 
the National Association of Commerce of Brazil, and with the Na¬ 
tional Chamber of Commerce of Panama. 

It is being negotiated between the United States Chamber of Com¬ 
merce and the Chamber of Commerce of Honduras and Peru; and 
there is, even in the case of this agreement, a tendency—the first in¬ 
dication of a tendency—to negotiate similar arrangements between 
South American countries, because the Chamber of Commerce of 
Montevideo, Uruguay, is negotiating a similar agreement with the 
Chamber of Commerce of Asuncion, the capital of Paraguay, due 
to the fact possibly that there is considerable commerce between 
Uruguay and Paraguay. 

Those arrangements give an impetus to commerce by reason of the 
greater confidence which it inspires in our people if after sending 
a shipment to one of these countries the customer finds, for some 
reason or other, that it is not acceptable, or claims that it does not 
conform to the sample, or for any other reason he refuses to make 
payment there is a quick and ready means established to arbitrate the 
difficulty without the necessity of recurrence to litigation in the 
courts. 


48 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Dickinson. Just one more question. In this exchange of 
gold and of these settlements of disputes, why could not that be 
worked out by the banking interests of the United States with the 
banking interests of these countries without having a Government 
function or Government commission here working on the proposi¬ 
tion? Show me the necessity of having a Government commission 
to function here with these business organizations. 

Mr. Rowe. I want in that connection to point out two or three 
facts: In the first place there is a very great advantage in having 
a certain definite group of men influential in their particular coun¬ 
tries, who are in constant touch with one another with reference to 
commercial and financial means. We have not entered for so long 
a period upon the whole plan of international banking but that 
our business and banking interests require a certain amount of stim¬ 
ulus in order to encourage the development of close ties with the 
countries of Central and South America. For instance, one of the 
great purposes which the commission has had in mind, which I 
will refer to briefly, has been to secure the elimination of the great 
dissimilarities in legislation. For instance, to have greater uniform¬ 
ity in the laws relating to negotiable instruments, in customs regula¬ 
tions, in port regulations, in a word matters that no one business 
house or group of business houses could secure in those countries, be¬ 
cause while they might present them to our Consul for Department of 
Commerce here the difficulties with which we have to contend, they 
have not anybody in those countries, they have no influential persons 
to work to secure that end. Furthermore, individual banking houses 
are loath to embark upon campaigns which mean for them consid¬ 
erable expenditure of time, and some money, for which they will 
not reap the exclusive reward. They will be participants with 
dozens of others; and they have more important things on their 
hands. For instance, one of the obstacles to our trade with those 
countries is the complexity of customs regulations. 

I recall when I arrived in Lima (Callao), Peru, in 1915, I met 
the Collector of Customs, who was really the general administrator ; 
of customs of the entire country, and we were going through the 
customhouse, and he showed me a piano being unpacked. He said, 

“ Here is a piano that has come from Germany, and you notice it f 
has in it a scarf, a piano stool, and a lot of other equipment.” I | 
said, “ Why do they put that all in one box ” ? He said, “ Under 
our. customs regulations a box packed in that way with all this 
equipment gets a different classification from a piano which comes 
unaccompanied by any equipment.” 

Of course, there is no real justification for that, except in some 
way it has grown up in that country. But it is a distinct advantage 
to a man who happens to know that little kink in their customs reg¬ 
ulations. If we could secure a simplification—and I may say that 
our own customs. regulations require very considerable simplifica¬ 
tion, and that simplification has been recommended in very excel¬ 
lent form in a report submitted by the Tariff Commission on the 
reform of the American administrative customs laws. If that 
simplification could be brought about, it would eliminate what 
really amounts to a good deal of unfair competition, because to re¬ 
quire every exporter to know all the details of the complex customs 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


49 


regulations is asking more than you should expect and that you 
actually have in practice. 

One of the matters which the International High Commission 
has been working on has been to secure in each country a simpli¬ 
fication of customs regulations, and of port regulations, so that they 
will be clear and not give rise to special advantages to those exporters 
who happen to know all the complexities of that system. 

The Chairman. Dr. Rowe, before you leave it, and in answer to 
Mr. Dickinson’s question, is not the fact that the United States Gov¬ 
ernment is back of this movement a good thing, as it gives stability 
to it, gives it more credit than an individual could? 

Mr. Rowe. Yes. 

The Chairman. And that was the main reason for all of this? 

Mr. Rowe. It means that the whole movement is taken seriously 
in this country, whereas if you have one banking house or group 
of manufacturers, then they feel it is for some special interest that 
they want to further in their country, and, as a matter of fact, you 
can not proceed very far in that direction because they always regard 
it as an intrusion if any foreigner says to them “ It is desirable that 
you modify your local legislation,” just as we would probably re¬ 
gard that as an intrusion. On the other hand, if you have a group 
of influential local men, and each group here is headed by the 
respective Minister of Finance, and that is their obligation, it means 
no intrusion on their local sovereignty. 

Mr. Dickinson. But have we not another department in our Gov¬ 
ernment that has to do with customs regulations, and is not this a 
duplication of their efforts along the very same lines? 

Mr. Rowe. Yes, in that sense. But, of course, the Treasury De¬ 
partment is charged with the enforcement of customs regulations 
but the Treasury Department has no entry into the general customs 
regulations in other countries. It is true that the State Department 
might make representations through our diplomatic representatives. 
However, it is always a difficult and delicate thing for us to do, to 
suggest to another country, through a direct official channel that they 
should modify their local legislation. On the other hand, if you have 
an international body divided up into sections, and each section is 
composed of men of high standing and influence, and it has taken 
upon itself the obligation to secure this uniformity and simplifica¬ 
tion, you have got the machinery which is elastic, which is efficacious 
and which operates Avithout any danger of misinterpretation, namely, 
that the United States is trying to dictate to any other country what 
it shall do, because in a great many cases we have to do the same thing 
that we ask them to do, and it is up to us at the present time, as part 
of this general plan to secure the simplication of our own customs 
administrative regulations. Mr. Chairman, I fear I am taking too 
much of your time on this one point. 

The Chairman. This is very interesting to the committee; we 
have no intention of hurrying you. 

Mr. Roave. I have already mentioned the work of the commission 
in endeavoring to secure uniformity of laAV with reference to checks 
and other negotiable instruments. 

The Chairman. That is No. 5, is it? 

161477—20-4 



50 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Rowe. Yes; checks and bills of exchange. There is very 
great diversity of legislation, and especially very great differences 
between our legislation and Latin-American legislation, on this point. 
The basis for this movement was The Hague rules, adopted at the 
International Convention at The Hague in 1912, which were modified 
at the meeting of the International High. Commission at Buenos Aires 
in 1916, and drafts were there submitted of uniform laws dealing 
with checks, bills of exchange, and other negotiable instruments. 
Of course, this is a matter that will only show definite results after 
a very considerable period of years because there are a great many 
local practices and customs that have to be modified, and it requires 
a long campaign of education. 

I may say that bills have been introduced and are being discussed 
providing for this uniform system in Colombia, Ecuador, Paraguay, 
and Uruguay; Brazil has substantially adopted The Hague rules; 
Guatemala similarly; Nicaragua; Costa Rica adopted the Englisn 
bill of exchange act; and Panama adopted the United States uni¬ 
form negotiable instruments act in 1916. The situation that con¬ 
fronts the commission to-day is that if we can secure the adoption 
of The Hague rules of 1912 as modified by the International High 
Commission at the meeting in 1916 by all the Latin American coun¬ 
tries—we have now a uniform negotiable instrument act in the 
United States and we will have great difficulty in having that modi¬ 
fied to conform to The Hague rules—we will at least have secured 
on the American Continent two systems which are not so very widely 
apart—the uniform rule of all the Latin American countries and 
our own United States negotiable instruments act. 

Mr. Dickinson. What is the difference between them? 

Mr. Rowe. The differences are of a highly technical nature. They 
relate more to the provisions for indorsement and acceptance. 

I may say that in that is also included the question of bills of 
lading. 

Another matter to which the commission has addressed itself was 
to secure the removal of the obstacle to commerce which was involved 
in the withholding in most countries of permission to make the sani¬ 
tary visit of the quarantine officer outside certain hours. I may say 
that in this respect we were asking of the Latin American countries 
something which we have not accomplished in the United States as yet, 
our quarantine visits being from sunrise to' sundown. But it is very 
important, especially in countries in which a vessel is simply unload¬ 
ing a small part of her cargo, which means perhaps an hour’s un¬ 
loading, that she should get her sanitary visit almost any time she 
arrives in order that she may get away. Otherwise, the trip is un¬ 
duly prolonged. We have urged permission for the sanitary visit 
outside the hours which had been established in Costa Rica, Domini¬ 
can Republic, Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Panama, Paraguay, 
Colombia, Peru, and Venezuela. 

We have also urged a modification of rules which will permit 
simultaneous loading and unloading, which is a great saving of 
time; and when the question of ship turnover is the vital question— 
it is now, with our shortage—it expedites the trip very much; and 
that modification permitting simultaneous loading and unloading 
has been secured in Bolivia, Argentina, Colombia', Costa Rica, the 
Dominican Republic, Salvador, Guatamala, Honduras, and Panama. 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


51 


Another matter to which the commission has addressed itself has 
been to secure greater uniformity in the classification of merchandise 
for statistical purposes, to permit of more accurate comparisons of 
statistics of export and import trade. The basis for this classifica¬ 
tion was the Brussels Convention of 1913 on the uniformity of classi¬ 
fication which was adopted by the International High Commission 
at the Buenos Aires meeting and has already been adopted and put ' 
into effect by Bolivia, Paraguay, Salvodar, Guatemala, and Panama. 
Uruguay, Ecuador, and Peru are studying it. The United States 
Department of Commerce has adopted it as what might be called a 
secondary statistical system. In other words, in their publications 
they will reclassify, in addition to the classification wdiich we have 
at the present time, on the basis of the Brussels convention. 

The International High Commission has also directed considerable 
effort to having parcel-post conventions renewed with countries 
with which for some reason or other our parcel-post system has come 
to an end. We have had very considerable difficulty with Chile, 
because of the fact that no agreement could be reached as to how the 
proceeds of parcel-post packages could be distributed, Chile taking 
the view that inasmuch as practically all the parcel post comes from 
the United States to Chile, that it was not quite fair for the United 
States to adopt a system on which at that tiyie the Post Office Depart¬ 
ment insisted, namely, that each country should keep what it re¬ 
ceives; that is, that the United States should put into the United 
States Treasury everything it receives for parcel-post packages and 
Chile taking the view that there was a heavy burden on her for the 
distribution of these packages for which she received no adequate 
return. 

The Chilean section of the International High Commission studied 
that matter for a very considerable time in Chile, to see how far the 
Chilean Government would go and finally the Post Office Depart¬ 
ments of the two countries were brought together and a new conven¬ 
tion with Chile was signed, which of course, is always a help to 
American commerce inasmuch as a good many of the articles which 
we send to Chile can be sent by parcel post, and if no parcel-post 
convention exists it means a very real handicap. 

I think I have placed before you the main differences with the 
International High Commission has had in mind. 

With reference to the appropriation- 

The Chairman (interposing). Before you leave that, will you 
kindly give us the names of the American representatives on this 
International High Commission? 

Mr. Rowe. The chairman of the United States section is always 
the Secretary of the Treasury, ex officio; the other members are as 
follows: Vice chairman, John Basset Moore, and members, Senator 
Fletcher, Paul M. Warburg, Dean John H. Wigmore of the North¬ 
western University, Andrew J. Peters, John H. Fahey, Samuel Unter- 
myer, and Herbert Fleishhacker, president of the Anglo-London- 
Paris National Bank of San Francisco. Senator Fletcher would be 
glad to appear before the committee. He is a member of the United 
States section and he will be glad to speak to the committee or. the 
work of the United States section. 

Mr. Dickinson. Do all of these commissioners give all of their 
time to this matter ? 



52 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Roave. They do not. They all serve without any compensa¬ 
tion whatever. The United States section needs to consider all ques¬ 
tions that are to be recommended to the other national sections or the 
matters that are to be recommended to the Government departments 
here; and, of course, individually they give considerable time to the 
questions in which they are especially interested. For instance, 
Mr. Warburg has given a great deal of time to this question of gold- 
clearance-fund convention, but, of course, if it demanded all of their 
time I am afraid we could not get their services. 

The Chairman. They act in an advisory capacity ? 

Mr. Eowe. They act in an advisory capacity; and not only that, 
they act in the capacity of the section when they meet to consider 
these questions and to make recommendations. 

The Chairman. What particular branch of the work does the 
mayor of Boston look after? 

Sir. Rowe. His long experience in the Treasury Department as 
Assistant Secretary gives him special preparation on all matters 
relating to customs regulations, so that is a matter to which he has 
given attention. 

The Chairman. Before you leave this, let me suggest that as soon 
as the stenographer has transcribed his notes I wish you would 
secure the transcript and then insert these agreements in it in their 
order, so that we will have a complete record of this entire matter 
and will not have to go into it again. 

Mr. Rogers. May I ask a question before you leave this point ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. Dr. Rowe, you went to the State Department this 
last spring, did you not? 

Mr. Roave. No; this fall; late in the fall. 

Mr. Rogers. Before that time you had been Assistant Secretary of 
the Treasury for some years, had you not ? 

Mr. Roave. Over two years; since we entered the war. 

Mr. Rogers. So that I suppose you may be regarded as impartial 
in your viewpoint as between the Treasury Department and the 
State Department; you have seen both sides? 

Mr. Roave. I hope I may. 

Mr. Rogers. Would you say, in general, it Avas wise to have inter¬ 
national commissions of whatever nature under the State Depart¬ 
ment rather than under the control of the department whose juris¬ 
diction might naturally be connected with the Avork of the com¬ 
mission ? 

Mr. Roave. In reply to that I Avant to make particularly this con¬ 
sideration: You have to secure, as in all matters relating to the work 
of the International High Commission, a modification of domestic 
legislation—either a modification of the existing legislation or new 
legislation—there is a very real advantage in having some sort of an 
organization which will enable you to get local cooperation free from 
the manifest limitations of diplomatic presentations on the subject. 

I will go into detail with you in reference to the order in which 
these results have been secured. They haA^e been secured because a 
group of men presided over by the minister of finance of that coun¬ 
try, felt that it Avas up to them to secure either* a new legislation or a 
modification of the existing legislation. It is only in very excep¬ 
tional instances that we can make a diplomatic representation to a 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 53 

country. For instance, if the local legislation is manifestly contrary 
to foreigners, or if it carries possibility of confiscation, or if there 
has been a denial of justice, we, can make diplomatic representation. 
It is exceedingly difficult through diplomatic channels to suggest to 
a country the desirability of modifying its legislation without carry¬ 
ing with it the implication of interference in their local affairs. 

Mr. Rogers. Now. Doctor, in order to get your views, very spe¬ 
cifically, in spite of the fact that you are now an official of the State 
Department, you think the International High Commission should 
remain under the jurisdiction of the Treasury Department? 

Mr. Rowe. I do not see any reason for making a change because I 
feel with the organization that you have, namely, a group of men 
working under the minister of finance in each country, you can not 
| change here without at once placing the United States in a separate 
category from all other countries which have this organization. The 
j result would be that the communication between members of the re¬ 
spective national sections would not be as free as at the present time. 

If all the other countries placed their national sections in the 
Ministry of Foreign Affairs, then the undesirability of a change in the 
I United States would not be so great. But I think at the present time, 
to adopt a special system for the United States and to allow the other 
countries to remain as they are, especially since we suggested this 
organization originally—it was suggested by Mr. McAdoo at the 
First International Pan American Conference. He said, “ The only 
way we can achieve these results that we have in mind is to throw 
the responsibility on influential men in each of those countries.” 

Mr. Rogers. In answering my question, are you referring to the 
views of your department or your own individual views? 

Mr. Rowe. In that I am referring to my individual views. 

Mr. Rogers. It is probable, is it not, that the views of the depart¬ 
ment to some extent differ from } 7 our own ? 

Mr. Rowe. I have not at any time during the entire four-year 
period, before and since my connection with the departments, at 
any time seen or heard—and during that entire time I have been 
closely in touch with the State Department—any expression which 
would indicate that the State Department felt that this commission 
should be transferred to it. 

I do not mean to say by that that the State Department has in any 
way withheld its cooperation. On the contrary, the International 
High Commission has had the constant, enthusiastic, and the most 
helpful cooperation of the State Department; and, certainly without 
that cooperation, the commission could not have achieved anything 
like what it has achieved. 

Mr. Moores. The State Department is represented on that com¬ 
mission simply by Mr. John Bassett Moore, and recently by your¬ 
self; it not that true? 

Mr. Rowe. The commission ? 

Mr. Moores. Yes. 

Mr. Rowe. I did not quite get the first part of your question. 

Mr. Moores. I say the State Department is represented only by 
John Bassett Moore and recently by yourself in addition. 

Mr. Rowe. Of course, the thought in the organization of the com¬ 
mission was not the representation of any Government department 
except that the Secretary of the Treasury, who was ex officio. Mr. 




54 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

John Bassett Moore has no connection with the State Department at 
the present time. 

Mr. Moores. Except intermittently. 

Mr. Rowe. But he is an international lawyer, and one whose word 
counts for a great deal in all those countries. So that there has been 
no representation of any department. But, on the other hand, every 
division of the State Department has given the warmest cooperation. 
So, if that is to be regarded as indication, I would say that the State 
Department is ready to support and continue the cooperation in the 
work of the commission. 

Mr. Rogers. I have repeatedly heard officials high and low in the 
State Department say that in their judgment the work of this com¬ 
mission should be brought under the Department of State, because it 
was an international convention, and on the whole it was better for 
the Nation to concentrate its international functions in one depart¬ 
ment. I am wondering whether that view is correct or not. 

Mr. Roave. I think in matters which deal with really diplomatic 
relations, it is entirely true. But there is a great deal to be gained 
in developing what we might call “ unofficial international relations.” 
For instance, take the American College of Surgeons, which is now 
undertaking to 'bring itself in close touch with the leading surgeons 
of all countries of South and Central America; in the same way the 
American Educational Association is proceeding. In other words, 
every time we establish ties between groups of men in the United 
States and in those countries, we take one step forward in the devel¬ 
opment of real Pan Americanism; and there is some advantage in 
having these relationships established, each of which is intended to 
accomplish a particular purpose. 

The Chairman. The present method eliminates diplomacy from 
these negotiations and makes it more or less as a business under¬ 
taking. The commission has been a marked success? 

Mr. Rowe. Yes. 

The Chairman. And that is rather a persuasive argument in favor 
of the present method, is it not ? 

Mr. Rowe. And, as far as relations between the Treasury and the 
State Department are concerned, whatever feeling may have ex¬ 
isted, has never expressed itself in any lack of cooperation, and 
everyone has shown great self-control in helping us when we wanted 
cooperation. 

Mr. McGuire. Might I suggest in that connection that you would 
permit me to give you, for the record, the translation of a speech 
delivered on the 25th of August last year, in the Argentine Senate 
by the chairman of the committee on constitutional amendments 
and on the commercial code, in introducing a Spanish version of 
our uniform bills of lading act, to be incorporated in the commer¬ 
cial code of Argentina ? He had a long introduction, explaining the 
work of this commission and distinguishing it from diplomatic pro¬ 
cedure and matters pertaining directly to international relations, 
showing this to be a technical international union of the same sort 
as the trade-mark, postal, and other international technical unions. 

The Chairman. I think the committee will be glad to have that. 

Mr. McGuire. It is very brief—only six typewritten pages. 

(The translation of the speech referred to, subsequently furnished 
by Mr. McGuire, is here printed in full, as follows:) 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


55 


COMMERCIAL CODE OF ARGENTINA. 

[TranslMion of speech delivered Sept. 25, 1019, in the Argentine Senate by Dr. Leopoldo 
Melo, on introducing bill amending commercial code of Argentina by the incorporation 
of provisions governing bills of lading (United States bills-of-lading act). Official 
Gazette of the National Congress of the Argentine Republic, Twenty-sixth Congress, 
forty-third session of the Senate, Sept. 25, 1919, pp. 441-443.] 

Mr. President : The object of this bill is to have the Argentine Republic 
carry out the resolutions adopted by the International High Commission on 
uniform legislation at the conference held in Buenos Aires in April, 1916. 

In the plan of research work drawn up in Washington, and approved later 
by the Argentine national section, there was incorporated as a second topic 
“bills of exchange, bills of lading, and other instruments of international 
commerce.” At the conference held at Buenos Aires in 1916 committees were 
appointed to report on the three topics which made up the program; a dis¬ 
cussion of them was held by the entire body of delegates, representatives of 
the United States, Central America, Cuba, Panama, Haiti, and of all the 
South American Republics taking part in the debate. Concerning the third 
topic the resolution was adopted: that with regard to bills of exchange and 
promissory notes, the convention and uniform regulation of The Hague con¬ 
vention of 1912 should be ratified, with the exceptions expressly established. 
With regard to bills of lading it was agreed that the sections of the various 
countries should make a study of the legislation pertaining to these com¬ 
mercial documents and to certificates of deposits, taking as a basis for the 
proposed uniform law, the one drawn up in the United States. 

In April of 1916, when this resolution was adopted, the countries taking part 
in the conference promised to carry on the work already begun by endeavoring 
to remove the obstacles to harmonious relations, both commercial and financial, 
among the American Republics—such obstacles, namely, as arose from con¬ 
flicting legislation—and to strive for coordinated action in the attainment of 
material prosperity. Since then these same countries have shown initiative 
and energy in carrying out their promises, all of which make our efforts seem 
rather belated as against those of other nations. 

Thus, for example, in the United States the work met with happy issue, 
resulting in the enactment of a Federal law on bills of lading under date of 
August 29, 1916; that is, at the end of three months from the date of the final 
session of the international high commission. This accomplishment was the 
result of long and patient labor. 

For some time prior to the conference in Buenos Aires, and before the Pan 
American Financial Conference in Washington, a movement was abroad in the 
United States to have a uniform law enacted which would safeguard the rich 
enterprises represented by bills of lading. 

The first steps were taken by establishing certain unofficial bodies, and 
through their cooperation and by other endeavors, to have a single standard 
law enacted throughout the States, such as had been passed in the case of bills 
of exchange, until, as is related in the publications of the central executive 
council of the United States section of the international high commission, the 
conference of commissioners on uniform Stnte laws determined to engage Prof. 
Samuel Williston, of Harvard University, to draw up a proposed law on 
uniform legislation in tin; matter of bills of lading, making five preliminary 
drafts to be submitted to the critical examination of shippers, carrers, and 
banker^ as well as to the committees on mercantile laws established in St. 
Paul, Philadelphia, Portland, and New York. Finally, at a meeting in Detroit 
in August, 1909, the last draft was approved, submitted to the gentlemen of 
the committee on commercial law, who, together with Prof. Williston, proceeded 
with the final revision. 

Mr. Francis B. .Tames, chairman of the committee on commercial law, 
which committee undertook the task of drawing up the uniform law, in 
speaking of the origin of the committee and emphasizing the importance of a 
uniform law on bills of lading, in the course of the proceedings at Detroit, said: 

“ in accordance with the Constitution of the United States, there is a central 
hody—Congress—with limited jurisdiction over certain commercial matters, 
such as interstate commerce, international commerce, board of admiralty, 
coinage of money, bankruptcies, copyrights, patents, post offices, and postal 
routes. There are many enterprises of a commercial character and of national 
extent which, though not essentially commercial and while circumscribed by 
State limits, nevertheless, have a direct bearing on commerce. 







56 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


“ Since no central body familiar with these problems existed, this commis¬ 
sion was established, with power to recommend to the legislatures of the 
individual States the speedy enactment of laws on these topics mentioned 
above, with a view to giving them a national scope, although politically re¬ 
maining within the limits of each State. In treating of bills of lading and 
in formulating regulations in this regard it was imperative that the committee 
on commercial law and the commission should determine the precise nature 
of the law on bills of lading. In the first place, it was decided that the law 
of bills of lading was not the law governing carriers. The carrier’s law defines 
the rights and corresponding duties of shippers and carriers as well as what¬ 
ever is determined by common law, excepting as for the requirements made by 
special laws on the subject. 

“ The law of bills of lading as it should be interpreted and as the commis¬ 
sion has viewed it treats of bills of lading in their character as a title or right; 
that is, as commercial paper. The commissioners, therefore, in drafting the 
uniform law on bills of lading have considered bills of lading as being pri¬ 
marily legal titles to merchandise—that is, as commercial paper—and, secondly, 
as instruments defining the relations between shipper and carrier in so far as 
they refer to them.” 

Further on he adds: 

“The order bill of lading is an instrument to facilitate commerce, the im¬ 
portance of which is not generally recognized. It is not only a certificate that 
merchandise is in transit, but also a prime facie title to said merchandise, and, 
in this capacity, a bill of lading is a negotiable instrument.” 

The theory of the common law in regard to bills of lading may be expressed 
in these terms: 

A bill of lading is a mark of ownership. The delivery or transfer of a bill 
of lading is, in effect, a transfer of property, but just as property or goods 
may be delivered without a transfer of title and without preventing the owner 
from presenting his title against whomsoever has bought the goods in good 
faith from the possessor, so in the case of a bill of lading the original owner 
of the merchandise can always prove the real character of the transaction 
even against a purchaser in good faith. On the other hand, merchants and 
bankers consider a bill of lading as a certificate of title and at the same time 
a mark of ownership. 

While the work of the commissioners with regard ‘to uniform laws and the 
drafting of the proposed bill of lading was progressing favorably, Senator 
Pomerene drew up and submitted to the United States Senate on April 28, 
1913, the Federal bill of lading act, a bill whose object was to put uniformity 
in all legislation pertaining to bills of lading, and this bill with certain modi¬ 
fications became a Federal law on August 29, 1916. 

While the activities of the commissioners to obtain uniform laws within the 
territory of the United States were being prosecuted, in such fashion as I have 
sketched, other measures no less effective and of international scope were 
being advanced by the Government of the United States to establish more 
extensive and satisfactory commercial relations among the countries of South 
and Central America and the United States. 

This action on the part of the Federal Government began with the incorpora¬ 
tion into the consular and diplomatic budget—approved March 4, 1915—of an 
appropriation to meet the expenses of a Pan American Financial Conference, 
whose object was “to establish more extensive and mutually beneficial rela¬ 
tions among the American Republics.” It was decided to hold the conference 
in Washington during the same year, 1915, for the attendance of which 48 
delegates accepted invitations. 

Among the resolutions adopted at the Conference is found that relative to the 
establishment of the International High Commission as a permanent body 
and the assignment to it of the problems toward whose solution it would 
direct its researches. It was also decided that the next conference should 
convene in Buenos Aires, April, 1916. 

This last resolution was carried out; the conference having been held in 
Buenos Aires from the 3d to the 12th of April. The United States and the other 
American nations were represented by noted statesmen, lawyers, and professors, 
in proof of which it is sufficient to mention the names of such men as McAdoo, 
Fletcher, Warburg, Untermeyer, Fahey, Kains, Villason, Calvo, Pandia, Calo- 
geras, Ingles de Sousa, Manuel Salinas, Isquierdo, Edwards, Ayala y Jimenez, 
de Ar6chaga. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


57 


\\ith legard to the third topic, relative to hills of lading, the resolution 
which the conference adopted recommended a special study of legislation per¬ 
taining to these commercial documents and to take as a model for the project 
of law or uniform legislation the one proposed in the United States. 

Scarcelj three months had elapsed from the final session of the International 
High Commission in 1910, when in August of the same year, the Pomerene bill, 
with certain modifications, became a Federal law in the United States. In a 
document presented to the United States Senate during the first session of 
th G4th ( ongress, statistics were adduced proving the necessity of uniform 
ledeial legislation. According to these statistics there were issued bills of 
lading which represented merchandise valued at $25,000,000,000, and it was 
calculated that the banks have advanced cash on bills of lading for more than 
$5,000,000,000; all of which made clear the urgent necessity of enacting laws 
to safeguard the rights of the owners or holders of such instruments. 

Among the European nations during the last 30 years prior to the war the 
adoption of uniform regulations on freight insurance (polia de fletamentos) 
and bills of lading lias been the subject of deep study on the part of shippers, 
bankers, underwriters, chambers of commerce, and scientific associations, such 
as the International Maritime Committee. 

The abuses and frauds which can take place in transactions based on du¬ 
plicates of the same bill of lading have caused measures to be taken to elimi¬ 
nate the possibility of a double negotiation of a bill, and it is sufficient to recall 
the words of Lord Blackburn in the Glin East v. West India Dock case which 
Carver cites, in which lie says that he could not understand why there should 
be sent separate copies of a bill of lading, all negotiable, nor why the value of 
the original negotiable instrument was not stipulated on one single document, 
the others being mere copies. 

Granting the importance that the bill of lading acquires each day in its 
character as a title to values (valores) in sale transactions, and as a guar¬ 
antee of merchandise in transit, and of advance payment by bankers, I have in¬ 
serted in the proposed bill as a measure of security for these enterprises, clauses 
by which a single instrument may be negotiable and that this be clearly stated in 
the written form of the bill of lading. 

In the conference held in Paris in October, 1911, at the instigation of the in¬ 
ternational maritime committee, investigation was begun upon a proposed in¬ 
ternational code of freight insurance (fletamento). This was further discussed 
in the conference at Copenhagen in May of 1913. The proceedings of the con¬ 
ference were published in November of the same year, and I have incorporated 
in the present bill such of the resolutions adopted by this conference as are 
adaptable without changing the tenor of the Federal law of the United States, 
which I have followed as a norm. 

During the month of January, 1920, there will be held in Washington the 
second Pan-American Financial Congress in fulfillment of one of the resolu¬ 
tions adopted by the International High Commission. The Argentine delegation 
recently appointed to take part in this conference will be able to present their 
project of law as a forward step toward the fulfillment of its obligation con¬ 
tracted in 1916. 

With regard to the articles forming the main part of the proposed law, I re¬ 
peat that they have been modeled on the text of the Federal law of August, 
1916. The modifications which I have introduced do not affect the essential 
guarantees which this law creates to safeguard the negotiation and circulation 
of these bills of lading, but, on the contrary, tend to make them specific and to 
define the nature of these documents in harmony with the resolutions adopted 
during the last session of the international maritime committee. 

I have also thought it expedient to add an article setting forth the fact that 
“ through bills of lading ” also come within the scope of this law, by reason of 
the fact that these documents are to-day in frequent use in the shipment of 
merchandise that is to be carried partly by rail and partly by water. 

With the above exposition of the essential elements of the project of law I 
submit the same for the distinguished consideration of the Senate. 

Mr. Rowe. Mr. Chairman, if I may close the presentation of the 
International High Commission with reference to the appropriation, 
I may say that there have been three appropriations made for the 




58 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

commission. The results that have been secured have been secured at 
a practically negligible cost to the United States by reason of the fact 
that we have a group of men on the United States section who are 
deeply interested in the plan and who were ready to serve the Gov¬ 
ernment without any remuneration. 

The Chairman. It is quite extraordinary to me that you can get 
along on $30,000. 

Mr. Rowe. The members of the United States section of the com¬ 
mission represent the highest expert talent and are giving their 
services without compensation. The only expense we have had has 
been a staff of experts necessary to carry on the work, a comparatively 
small expenditure for printing, stationery, telephone, and telegraph, 
and furniture. We have had no rent to pay owing to the fact that 
the quarters were furnished to the commission in the Treasur} 7 Build¬ 
ing. 

The reason that for the fiscal year 1920 an increase of $5,000 as 
against the preceeding year, is due to the fact that on the 19th of 
this month the Second Pan American Financial Conference will 
assemble and the International High Commission during the com¬ 
ing year will therefore have in addition to the unfinished business 
that was left over from the first conference, the realization of an 
entirely new program, carrying into execution the entire program 
of the financial conference which is about to assemble in Washing¬ 
ton. I will say that the foreign delegations that are coming from 
all the most important countries are presided over by the respective 
ministers of finance. The Minister of Finance of Argentina heads 
the Argentine delegation; the Bolivian delegation is headed by 
a man who has until just recently been Minister of Finance, one of 
the leading men of the country; the same is true of the Chilean dele¬ 
gation, which has two ex-ministers of finance; the Minister of 
,Finance of Haiti; the Minister of Finance of-Nicaragua is the 
head of that delegation; the head of the Paraguay delegation is 
its Minister of Finance; the Minister of Finance of Peru, of Salva¬ 
dor, and Uruguay, and so on. 

Mr. Rogers. Just one more question, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Yes, certainly. 

Mr. Rogers. I think we ought to have for examination, if not in 
the form of testimony in the form of an exhibit to be printed, a 
recapitulation of the expenditures for the current fiscal year, so far 
as you can now get them. 

Mr. Rowe. Would you like them in greater detail than indicated 
on this card [exhibiting card to Mr. Rogers]. 

Mr. Rogers. That is precisely the sort of thing I had in mind. 

Mr. Rowe. And here is the estimates of the distribution of the ap¬ 
propriation that is asked for [indicating card]. 

Mr. Rogers. Can those be printed in the record as they stand ? 
I think that would give the committee splendid information—just 
give the principal headings. 

(The data asked for by Mr. Rogers was subsequently furnished by 
Mr. Rowe and is here printed in full, as follows:) 

First appropriation (available Feb. 15, 1916 to Oct. 

1, 1918), public No. 15, 64th Cong., approved Feb. 

7, 1916_ _ _ 


$40, 000. 00 




DIPLOMATIC AN1) CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


59 


Expended for: 

Salaries_ 

Printing and stationery_ 

Telegraph and telephone_ 

Furniture and equipment_ 

Books and newspapers_,__ 

S. A. trip, U. S. section and staff to attend lirst 
meeting International High Commission at 

Buenos Aires___ 

Domestic travel_ 


$23, 453. 32 
3, 744. 74 
1, 466. 97 
677. 53 
76. 83 


8, 668. 73 
1, 570. 97 


Total expenditures 


$39, 659. 09 


Balance unexpended 


340. 91 


Second appropriation (available Oct. 14, 1918 to June 
30, 1919), public No. 128, 65th Cong., approved Apr. 


15, 1918_ 25, 000. 00 

Expended for: 

Salaries __ $9, 441. 67 

Extra help_,_ 76.10 

Printing and stationery_ 626. 39 

Telegraph and telephone_ 168.13 

Furniture and equpiment_ 2, 721.17 

Books and newspapers_, t _ 28. 49 

Domestic travel_ 244. 36 


Total expenditure 


$13, 306. 31 


Balance unexpended June 30. 1919 


11, 693. 69 


Third appropriation (available July 1, 1919 to June 
30, 1920), public No. 346, 65th Cong., approved 


Mar. 4. 1919_ 25,000.00 

Estimated expenditures: 

Salaries__$22,100. 00 

Printing and stationery_,_ 2, 000. 00 

Telegraph and telephone_ 200. 00 

Furniture and equipment_2_ 200. 00 

Postage__ 300. 00 

Domestic travel_ 200. 00 


Total_ 25, 000. 00 


Statement of balance Dec. 31, 1919 : Appropriation- t _ 25, 000. 00 

Expended: 

Salaries_$12, 344. 96 

Equipment, postage_ 1,169. 84 

Printing, telephone, telegrams, etc- 496. 61 

Reimbursements for travel-,- 128. 63 


Total_,- 14,140. 04 


Balance ____ 10, 859. 96 


% 


Estimated expenditure of $30,000 recommended 
and diplomatic bill now under consideration ( 
June 30, 1921) : 

Salaries__ 

Temporary clerical assistance_ 

Printing and stationery- 

Telegraph and cable- 

Telephone_ 

Equipment_ 

Postage--- 

Travel (domestic and foreign)- 


for appropriation in consular 
to be available July 1, 1920, to 

_$23,000.00 

_ 1 , 100 . 00 

__ 2, 750. 00 

_ 300.00 

_ 100.00 

_ 250.00 

_-1_ 500. 00 

_ 2 , 000 . 00 


Total expenditure 


30, 000. 00 































































60 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


PRESENT SALARY ROLL OF UNITED STATES SECTION, INTERNATIONAL 

HIGH COMMISSION. 

All the persons herein below named hold temporary appointments, termin¬ 
able at the pleasure of the Secretary of the Treasury. The clerical staff in all 
cases have civil-service status, although the temporary positions to which they 
have been appointed have not in the past been tilled by certification. 

Secretary general serves without pay. 

Assistant secretary general, $350 per month. 

Juristic expert, $300 per month. 

One legal research assistant, $200 per month. 

Two economic research assistants, each at $200 per month. 

Executive clerk, $166.67 per month. 

Five stenographers: 

One at the rate of $1,800 pep annum. 

Two at the rate of $1,500 per* annum. 

Two at the rate of $1,400 per annum. 

Four typists: 

Two at the rate of $1,200 per annum. 

One at the rate of $1,100 per annum. 

One at the rate of $800 per annum. 

One clerk at the rate of $1,100 per annum. 

Three messengers (boys) : 

Two at the rate of $600 per annum. 

One at the rate of 4S0 per annum. 

One translator at the rate of $1,500 per annum. 

In addition, several technical assistants, several administrative assistants, 
and a number of clerical assistants have been appointed by direction of the 
Secretary of the Treasury in connection with preparations for the Second Pan 
American Financial Conference, but their salaries are paid from the appro¬ 
priation made for that Congress in Public Act 379, Sixty-fourth Congress. 

Mr. Sabath. How did this International High Commission come 
into being, originally? 

Mr. Rowe. It was created by the First Pan American Financial 
Conference, soon after the outbreak of the war at the initiative of 
Mr. McAdoo. 

Mr. Sabatii. Who was then Secretary of the Treasury? 

Mr. Rowe. Who was then Secretary of the Treasury. The Presi¬ 
dent issued the invitations, after the necessary appropriations and 
authorization had been given by Congress, to all the Governments of 
Central and South America, to consider the financial situation on 
the American Continent as the result of the European war. The 
conference assembled in May, 1915, and as I stated, it was deemed 
highly important that some permanent organization be established 
for the purpose of carrying into effect the resolutions of that con¬ 
ference; and the organization that was adopted was the Interna¬ 
tional High Commission composed of national sections, nine mem¬ 
bers in each country, presided over by the minister of finance. 

Mr. Sabath. Who appointed the members of the American sec¬ 
tion ? 

Mr, Rowe. They were appointed by the President in each coun¬ 
try. 

Mi*. Sabath. And they received no compensation for their serv¬ 
ices ? 

Mr. Rowe. No compensation; all served without pay. 

Mr. Sabath. And this amount of money which has been appro¬ 
priated is merely for the expense? 

Mr. Rowe. Y es. For instance, this last appropriation for the 
fiscal year ending June 30, is estimated expenditures as follows: 
Salaries, $22,100—we will furnish the committee the full list of all 





DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


61 


persons who are on the roll together with their salary—printing and 
stationery, $200; telegraph and telephone, $200; furniture and 
equipment, $200; postage, $300; domestic travel, $200. 

Mr. Sabath. You will insert that in the record of the hearing? 

Mr. Rowe. Yes; we will insert the detailed figures and also the 
prices. 

(The data above referred to was subsequently furnished in detail 
by Mr. Rowe, see above, page 56.) 

Mr. Rogers. I think it is one of the few bargains the United States 
Government gets, as a matter of fact, Dr. Rowe. 

Mr. Sabath. And from your experience with this commission, you 
are satisfied it has accomplished a great deal of good for our country 
as well as for the commerce of the Nation? 

Mr. Rowe. I feel convinced that the United States has never made 
an expenditure of so small a sum of money for which it has secured 
so large a return, largely due to the fact that we have the cooperation 
of these very eminent leaders. 

Mr. Sabath. The thought originally came from Secretary McAdoo 
to create this commission that will be of such a vast aid to commerce 
of the Nation? 

Mr. Rowe. Yes. I am sorry we did not get word soon enough with 
reference to the hearing, as I would have asked Mr. McAdoo to come. 

Mr. Houghton. It had been initiated before that, as I understand 
you; it began in 1911. 

Mr. Rowe. No; the organization of the International High Com¬ 
mission was initiated at the meeting of the First Pan American Con¬ 
ference in Washington, 1915. 

Mr. Houghton. I do not mean the organization. I mean the work. 

Mr. Rowe. A certain part of it. For instance, the International 
Trade-Mark Convention was considered in 1910. 

If I may just refer to one item which has to do closely with the 
work of the international High Commission, the quota of the United 
States for the support of the International Trade-Mark Registration 
Bureau at Habana: There is no specific item inserted at the present 
time, owing to the fact that it is impossible to say what amount the 
United States will have to pay. The hope is that the United States 
will not have to pay anything; that by the end of this fiscal vear the 
International Registration Bureau at'Habana will have become self- 
supporting. and that the fees will make it unnecessary for any of the 
countries party to the convention to contribute anything toward 
its support. On the other hand, the bureau does need a building, and 
the Cuban Government has taken the initiative and has donated an 
admirable site, the value of which I think has been estimated at 
$1 000 000, a site which is indicated on this map of Habana (exhibit¬ 
ing map to committee) : and the distribution of the quota for the 
construction of that building, which is to cost $1,000,000, places the 
quota of the United States at $825,000. That would seem a very 
large quota for the United States to pay, but the distribution is 
based on the same plan as the distribution of the expenses of the 
Pan American Union. Of course, it may be said, furthermore that 
the United States is one of the chief beneficiaries of the establish¬ 
ment of the bureau. The bureau is at present very inadequately 
housed, and as the work increases the bureau should receive adequate 
housing facilities. 




62 diplomatic and consular appropriation bill. 


Mr. Rogers. The apportionment is based on population, is it not? 

Mr. Rowe. On population. , . 

Mr Rogers. I notice the letter of the Secretary of State explain¬ 
ing this bill, page 10 of the Secretary’s report, wherein the value ot 
the lot is given at not less than $150,000. . 

Mr. Rowe. Yes; it indicates a very desirable site, next to the new 

presidential palace. ... , 

Mr. Dickinson. If our appropriation is to be not only necessary 
but “ imperative,” does this come within the class of being impera¬ 
tive ? 

Mr. Rowe. It is imperative in this sense, that, of course, the first 
year of the actual operation of the bureau, which is this year, the 
number of registrations which the bureau has made is comparatively 
small. That is going to increase very rapidly with each year, and it 
is essential to secure for the bureau an adequate building. While the 
bureau will continue to function, even if it does not get a new build¬ 
ing, you must remember that an appropriation made now will prob¬ 
ably mean that no building will be available until possibly 1921 or 
1922. Building is not quite a*s rapid in Habana as here. It will prob¬ 
ably mean two years from now before that building is completed. 

Mr. Dickinson. Would our interests suffer any serious handicap 
by delaying this item in the appropriation for another year; would 
we lose anything? 

Mr. Rowe. I would not say that a catastrophe would result, but I 
do feel that as long as it means in any case a delay from the time of 
appropriation to actual completion possibly three years. You see, 
the idea is to have an international competition so as to make this 
building worthy of its purpose and give it a real international char¬ 


acter. 

Mr. Rogers. In the appropriation for the current year, namely, 
diplomatic and consular appropriation act approved March 4, 1919, 
an unexpended balance of $56,450 was made available for the current 
fiscal year for the work of this international trade-mark registration 
bureau. 

Mr. Rowe. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. Has that amount been spent in whole or in part ? 

Mr. McGuire. This is a statement of the accounts of the bureau on 
December 31 last, the latest transmitted by the director of the bureau. 


Received on account of quota of the United States_$25,000. 00 

Received from Cuba, in accordance with the law of July 3, 1918_ 10. 000. 00 

Received from Panama___ 198. 06 

Received from Nicaragua_ 335. 38 

Registration fees_ 4, 350. 00 


Total received up to this day_ 39, 883.44 

Expenditures covering salaries, equipment, stationery, and the like, 
up to Dec. 31_.__ 17, 610. 01 


Balance to the credit of the bureau on deposit in the Banco 
Nacional de Cuba_ 22, 273. 43 

The United States is planning to turn over $5,000 a month. 

Mr. Rogers. That will just about use up the remainder of the 
appropriation ? 

Mr. Rowe. It will nearly use it. But each month the requirements 
will diminish because the Commissioner of Patents is now accumulat- 












DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


63 


ing so much money to transmit to Habana, when the bill authorizing 
him to transmit it has been passed by Congress, that the fees will very 
soon begin to mount and will approximate the sum which was esti¬ 
mated when the bureau was established. 

Mr. Rogers. And, as you think that the service is likely to become 
substantially self-supporting after July 1 next, you are not asking 
for an appropriation at this time for the ensuing fiscal year ? 

Mr. Rowe. We want to get a little more definite information as to 
what it will be necessary to request. 

Mr. Rogers. I other words, you are not esstopping yourself from 
coming back and getting some more later ? 

Mr. Rowe. Some more? You mean getting something for the next 
fiscal year? 

Mr. Rogers. In addition to this $56,450 for this year, you are likely 
to need something next year and later? 

Mr. Rowe. Provided the bureau has not become self-supporting. 
But it is very likely that the bureau will soon become self-supporting. 
AVe require a little legislation in this countr} T in order to hand over 
to the bureau the fees which the Commissioner of Patents will collect 
on registrations in the United States. 

Mr. Houghton. I see that the Secretary of State in his memoran¬ 
dum here bases the share that the United States should contribute 
upon the shares that have been contributed by Cuba, on the broad 
theory that we ought to give five times as much as Cuba did. That 
may be one method of determining a proportion, but what does the 
$285,000 plus an abundant estimate mean by way of a building? Is 
it determined merely by multiplying the Cuban quota by 5 or have 
you worked out the needs of floor space equivalent that seemed to jus¬ 
tify any such total. This is going to be very difficult to get this year; 
and the reason seemed to me particularly apt that should Cuba give 
$300,000, then we would have to put up $1,500,000. 

Mr. Rowe. The distribution was made on the basis of population. 

Mr. PIoughton. That does not get the total; that is the ratio. AAThy 
do we put up a building for $800,000 and not $80,000,000 or $80,000? 

Mr. Rowe. Of course, before plans are drawn and before the com¬ 
petition begins, it is necessary to form some sort of an idea as to what 
an adequate building would cost; and as nearly as that estimate could 
be made, it was felt that on that site, a building would cost $1,000,000. 

Mr. Houghton. It might on that site cost almost anything. I 
mean, what is the real reason that we have $825,000 to pay. Do we 
need so many square feet; do we need a certain kind of building; do 
we need a certain kind of equipment; is that figured out so we can get 
it, or is that simply done in this method of ratio building by which 
what anybody else does we multiply by 5 ? 

Mr. Rowe/ It was figured out on this basis that a building to meet 
the needs of the bureau would cost about $1,000,000. Cuba’s actual 
quota would not be $150,000, if the distribution was made on a purely 

population basis. _ 

Mr Houghton. You are prepared, then, to put into the record, 
either formally or informally, the reason why $800,000 is required? 

Mr. Rowe. Yes; we will submit a statement on that. 

(The statement referred to was subsequently furnished by Mr. 
Rowe and is here printed in full, as follows:) 



64 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Translation of an Official Communication Dated December 31, 1919, From 

the Director of the International Registration Bureau at Habana, 

With Reference to the Present Situation of the Bureau. 

* * * It would seem advisable not to delay the construction of a special 

building for the Trade-Mark Bureau. Our archives are increasing with such 
rapidity that their transfer elsewhere will be more and more difficult as time 
goes on. If we allow the months to pass without making definite plans for a 
building of our own, the rental contract for the building now used will expire, 
leaving us in no position to make an advantageous contract, inasmuch as we 
would be at the mercy of real estate owners, who understand the importance 
of the bureau and who would probably take advantage of our position and 
demand an exorbitant rent. The early negotiation of the arrangements con¬ 
cerning a new building constitute, in my opinion, the most urgent need of the 
office. We can avail ourselves of the provisions of the law of December 3, 
1918, referring to the bureau, by virtue of which the President is authorized 
to cede, free of all obligation, to the Bureau of the International Union foi 
the protection of trade-marks a parcel of land from the property of the State, 
on which special building should be erected, and to contribute $25,000 in cash 
as the gift of Cuba toward the construction and equipment of such a building. 

[Translation of Cuban law.] 

REPUBLIC OF CUBA. 

Act approved July 3, 1918, concerning the International Trade-Mark Registration Bureau 

at Habana. 

Article I. The Executive is authorized to contribute ten thousand dollars 
($10,000) toward the initial organization expenses of the International Trade- 
Mark Registration Bureau in Habana, such sum to be expended by the director 
of the bureau and to be made available in such manner and at such times as 
the Executive may deem desirable. 

Art. II. The ten thousand dollars ($10,000) appropriated in Article I shall 
be made available from the general fund of any moneys not otherwise appro¬ 
priated. 

Art. III. The President of the Republic is authorized, when he shall deem 
it desirable, to grant to the International Trade-Mark Registration Bureau, in 
Habana, a lot of land within the city limits from land owned by the Govern¬ 
ment, for the purpose of constructing thereon the permanent home of the 
bureau. 

Art. IV. The cost of constructing the edifice mentioned in the foregoing 
article shall be borne either through proportional contribution by all the nations 
in the northern group, or through the application thereto of the funds of the 
bureau, or through both means. 

Art. V. In addition to the cession of land hereinbefore provided, the Execu¬ 
tive is further authorized to expend twenty-five thousand dollars ($25,000) in 
payment of the contribution of Cuba toward the cost of construction and equip¬ 
ment of the permanent home of the International Trade-Mark Registration 
Bureau of Habana. 

Art. VI. The sum of twenty-five thousand dollars ($25,000) mentioned in 
the foregoing article will be paid from any public funds not otherwise appro¬ 
priated ; and in connection with the cession of land, construction of the 
building, its adornment, etc., the President will deal directly with the director 
of the bureau and with the diplomatic representatives in Cuba of the American 
republics constituting the northern group. 

Art. VII. This act will take effect upon publication in the Official Gazette. 

The Chairman. Have you made any estimates as to the kind of 
a building you would need there? 

Mr. Dickinson. They have asked $825,000—five times what Cuba 
put up. 

The Chairman. I understand that. 

Mr. Kowe. The only thing done was that when the director of the 
bureau was up here we had conferences in the Supervising Architect’s 
office. Of course, those expenses have to be calculated. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 65 

The Chairman. Has the Supervising Architect looked over these 
plans and made an estimate of the kind of building we need? 

Mr. Rowe. The word “ estimate ” is an exaggeration, because you 
can not have an estimate until you have a plan. But the idea was 
that a certain amount of floor space was required, that this particular 
site called for a particular type of building, and the cost was cal¬ 
culated, as far as could be calculated, before we had the plans defi¬ 
nitely drawn. The idea was that w T hen the architectural competition 
was opened, it should then be stated that the specifications and every¬ 
thing should be drawn in such a way as to bring the building within 
this $1,000,000 construction cost. * 

• Mr. McGuire. The Commissioner of Patents and the director of 
the Trade-Mark Bureau held certain conferences as to the minimum 
requirements of such a building; that is, the amount of space and 
the type of equipment needed to keep records of that sort fireproof 
and with due convenience and safety. On the minimum requirements, 
as they regarded them, the director of the bureau conferred with the 
Acting Supervising Architect last summer, and without committing 
himself—since he had no official request from the Secretary of the 
Treasury to commit himself—the Acting Supervising Architect ex¬ 
pressed, quite informally, the opinion that a building of that sort 
would cost approximately $1,000,000 under existing building condi¬ 
tions in Habana. That is the sum total of negotiations so far 
carried on. 

Mr. Dickinson. But there has been a definite proposition suggested 
to the supervising architect stating what these needs are? 

Mr. McGuire. Not formally by the Secretary, which is the only 
way in which he could put himself on record. 

Mr. Moores. How many employees has the bureau there ? 

Mr. McGuire. Approximately a dozen. 

Mr. Moores. Are you acquainted with the amount of space occu¬ 
pied in the Patent Office by the Trade-Mark Bureau of this country— 
-about as much as this committee occupies, is it not ? 

Mr. McGuire. I should say it was very much more. The office 
of the chief examiner of trade-marks is as large as this room and 
the trade-mark records themselves extend for three or four rooms 
beyond that. 

Mr. Moores. This committee has three rooms. It seems to me that 
it occupies about the same space this committee does. 

Mr. McGuire. I believe that the Commissioner of Patents is not 
satisfied with the space he has there. 

Mr. Ackerman. Doctor, do any of the countries contribute toward 
the cost except Cuba and the United States? 

Mr. Rowe. All the countries belonging to the northern group. 

Mr. Houghton. With the exception of Mexico. What is the total 
contribution toward the erection of this building outside of the 
United States. 

Mr. Rowe. About $125,000. 

Mr. Ackerman. Just the difference between $825,000 and 

$ 1 , 000 , 000 ? 

Mr. Roave. No. The total contribution would be the difference be¬ 
tween $825,000 and $1,000,000. The Cuban contribution is their 
land. 


161477—20-5 




66 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. McGuire. Approximately $75,000 would be the total of the 
other countries, as the group now stands, without Mexico. The 
population of the United States constitutes 93 per cent of the popu¬ 
lation of the countries of the northern group which have ratified the 
convention. If Mexico with her population of about 15,000,000, were 
to ratify the convention, our population would be something in the 
neighborhood of 80 per cent of the whole and the quota of the United 
States would be established accordingly. 

Mr. Ackerman. Was there some particular reason whereby this 
building was to be erected in Cuba rather than in the United States ? 

Mr. McGuire. The fact that thfc convention itself designates Ha- 
bana as the seat of the northern registration bureau. 

Mr. Ackerman. And it did so also regarding Rio. 

Mr. Rowe. And the erection of the building at Rio for the south¬ 
ern group will be a matter for the southern group. 

Mr. Houghton. Canada is not in? 

Mr. McGuire. No. 

Mr. Ackerman. Does the United States contribute toward the 
building at Rio ? 

Mr. Rowe. Not at all; it has nothing to do with that; that has 
been apportioned among the southern countries. 

The Chairman. This $825,000 is for the building? 

Mr. Rowe. It is for the building. 

The Chairman. There has to be subsequent appropriation for the 
furnishing ? 

Mr. Rowe. No, this is for furnishing and equipment—on page 10 
the Secretary of State’s report, the fourth paragraph. 

The Chairman. How many feet of floor space did you calculate 
this trade-mark commission would need ? 

Mr. Rowe. Eventually about the space required by the Pan 
American Union. I am afraid I have not got that, but I will try to 
put that in the record. 

(The data referred to, was subsequently furnished by Mr. Rowe, 
appearing above, p. 61.) 

The Chairman. How far have the American commissioners obli¬ 
gated the United States to construct this building? 

Mr. Rowe. There is no obligation. 

The Chairman. No obligation at all? 

Mr. Rowe. There is no commitment in the sense that any Gov¬ 
ernment department or officer has committed the United States for 
this, since it is a matter no one can undertake without authorization. 

The Chairman. And, of course, the United States is much more 
active in promoting this than all the other countries combined. 

Mr. Rowe. From a commercial standpoint it is more deeply inter¬ 
ested. 

Mr. Ackerman. Then what I would assume would be done would 
be delaying this appropriation for a year, in view of the fact that 
the cost of building at the present time is 100 to 150 per cent higher 
than in normal times- 

Mr. Houghton (interposing). And exchange is against us. The 
Cuban dollar is worth more now than our own dollar ? 

Mr. Rowe. Slightly more. 

The Chairman. I am in entire sympathy with your commission, 
and I think it should be encouraged in every way we can, but it does 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 67 

seem to me that the construction of the building costing $1,000,000 
is quite extravagant. 

Mr. Rowe. The building as such has nothing to do with the Inter¬ 
national High Commission; it is not intended to house the commis¬ 
sion or anything of that kind, but is exclusively for the Trademark 
Registration Bureau, and for no other purpose whatever. 

The Chairman. What would be wrong with appropriating enough 
money to rent a good substantial building in Habana for two or three 
years, until the cost of building assumed its normal proportions? 

Mr. Rowe. I understand that at the present time the director has 
rented these quarters and is paying this rental out of the quota as¬ 
signed to each country for maintenance of the bureau. 

The Chairman. How many feet of floor space has he, do you 
know ? 

Mr. Rowe. Not exactly, but what he has will soon become very 
much too small for his purposes. 

Mr. McGuire. The rent is $180 a month. 

Mr. Rowe. In Habana there are very few buildings available, and 
it is one of the cities where renting is most difficult. There has been 
very little building going on in Habana the last tAvo or three years, 

| and this is a one-story building Avhich he finally was able to secure. 

The Chairman. I assume that your idea in the construction of this 
splendid building is to appropriately house the bureau and impress 
I Latin America with the importance we attach to the matter? 

Mr. Rowe. Of course, the bureau has an international significance 
and sooner or later it should be housed with a certain dignity and 
prestige that goes with such accommodations. 

Mr. Dickinson. Is not that the reason why one should be very 
cautious in asking for money now for building purposes? I think 
every one would agree to that general proposition that it ought to 
be properly housed and it ought to be dignified, and, if neces¬ 
sary, to spend $1,000,000 for the building, but is this the time to 
ask for that kind of a building? 

Mr. Rowe. Of course, the return to the United States in the actual 
benefits from this bureau would run into many, many millions of 
dollars. 

The Chairman. We appreciate that, Doctor. The point that I 
have in mind is the wisdom of spending $1,000,000 on the construc¬ 
tion of a building, especially at this time, when the cost of build¬ 
ing is so very high. 

Mr. Rowe. I do not want to labor the point any. The idea is to 
have this building open to international competition of architects. 
That is a long process. I doubt very much Avhether, if you were to 
appropriate the money this spring, any jury would make a decision 
on the architectural plan before the spring of next year. Then, after 
you decide upon that, you have to have the specifications, which 
would probably mean anywhere from two to four years from the 
time you make* the appropriation until the building would be ready 
for occupation. 

The Chairman. We would have to have the money available, and 
that is where the shoe is pinching. 

Mr. Roave. The money would have to be available, it probably 
would not be drawn from the Treasury for three years to come 

Mr. Moores. Who owns the land? 







68 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPKOPKIATION BILL. 


Mr. Rowe. The Cuban Government, at the present time. 

Mr. Moores. Then, there is no particular urgency in buying the 
land? 

Mr. Rowe. They will give the land. 

Mr. Dickinson. Would it not answer your purpose to ask for 
something like $5,000 to have plans drawn for such a building, and 
is not that really what you want now ? 

The Chairman. They do not need that; the Supervising Architect 
can do that. 

Mr. Dickinson. He can not very well hold an international com¬ 
petition. 

The Chairman. No. 

Mr. Rowe. The idea was to provide for competition, just as com¬ 
petition was provided for when the Pan American Building was 
constructed. 

Mr. Flood. Does the Secretary of State make an estimate for this 
building ? 

Mr. Dickinson. Page 10. 

Mr. Flood. I mean, in the preparation of the bill? 

Mr. Dickinson. He bases his estimate on the fact that we ought 
to spend five times as much as Cuba. 

The Chairman. It is based, Mr. Flood, on the population. 

Mr. Rowe. The next item that I desire to submit to the committee 
is the appropriation for the Fifth International Conference of the 
American States. Members of the committee will recall that the 
fourth conference assembled at Buenos Aires in 1910. The thought 
at that time was that the fifth conference should assemble at San¬ 
tiago in September, 1914. The outbreak of the war lead to the 
postponment of the conference, and during the war the Government 
of Chile did not deem it advisable to call the conference. The Chilean 
Government has not as yet formally indicated a time, but it is thought 
that the conference will be called some time before the close of the 
fiscal year 1920-21. That will have allowed a longer interval between 
Pan American conferences than has ever occurred before. The first 
conference was held at Washington in 1889, the second in Mexico City 
in 1901; the third at Rio in 1906; and the fourth at Buenos Aires in 
1910. 

The appropriation of $75,000 was made for the American delega¬ 
tion to the fifth conference by the act of 1914. That was reduced 
to $50,000 in the appropriation bill of last year. The Secretary of 
State requests that in the bill of this year the amount be restored to 
$75,000, because of the fact that the cost of sending a delegation to 
siny foreign country at the present tinie, and especially to a South 
American country, is very much greater than it would have been in 
1914 or prior to the outbreak of the war. 

I may say that the appropriation for the Washington conference 
of 1889 was $124,879.89. For the Mexican Conference, 1901, 
$25,000. Of course, the distance to be traveled, and travel¬ 
ing expenses were very much less in sending a delegation to 
Mexico City. The Rio conference made an expenditure of $27,945, 
and for the Buenos Aires conference the amount expended was 
$106,406. The heavier expenditure in connection with the Buenos 
Aires conference is probably due to the fact that delegations went 
to Buenos Aires on a Government vessel, the entire cost of which 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 69 

was charged to the appropriation. The conference is one in which 
the United States, as the originator of these American conferences, 
must necessarily be represented. 

The Chairman. Let me interrupt you there and ask you wherein 
does this differ from the Pan American conference? 

Mr. Rowe. What is called the International Conference of Ameri¬ 
can States has really more of a political character; that is to say, 
the representatives are diplomatic delegates with powers of diplo¬ 
matic delegates. The questions taken up at the conference are 
questions that deal with international political relations as dis¬ 
tinguished, for instance, from the Pan American Financial Confer¬ 
ence, at which purely financial questions are discussed. For instance, 
I have here the set of questions taken up at the Rio conference. 

The Chairman. How many of these conferences have there been? 

Mr. Rowe. This will be the fifth. 

The Chairman. When was the first one ? 

Mr. Rowe. The first was in 1889; called by Mr. Blaine—the first 
Pan American conference—the first move toward the establishment 
of an American continental organization. 

The Chairman. Could you give us the dates of the subsequent 
conferences, beginning with the one in 1889 ? 

Mr. Rowe. Mexico, 1901; Rio, 1906; Buenos Aires, 1910. The 
fifth conference was to have been called in 1914, to assemble on the 
18th of September, 1914, but was postponed on account of the out¬ 
break of the war. 

Mr. Flood. The appropriation for this conference has been made 
from year to year since that ? 

Mr. Rowe. Made available; except last year it was reduced by 
$25,000. 

Mr. Flood. On the expectation that when peace returned you 
would have this conference? 

Mr. Rowe. Exactly. 

Mr. Dickinson. If the duties are political, why can not that be 
covered by the State Department and those officials in our diplomatic 
service ? 

Mr. Rowe. These conferences are all marked steps in the develop¬ 
ment of our Pan American policy; that is to say, in the first place, 
you bring together at the conference the representatives of all the 
countries in one assembly. You secure thereby an interchange of 
opinion and the possible unity of sentiment on matters affecting all 
the countries in a way in which you can not do in the course of 
isolated diplomatic negotiation. 

Mr. Dickinson. But this policy must be carried out by the State 
Department? 

Mr. Rowe. This is all under the auspices of the State Depart¬ 
ment; in other words, the delegates receive their instructions from 
the State Department. It is a diplomatic conference distinctively 
and exclusively, in that sense, and, of course, the conventions agreed 
upon or treaties agreed upon are signed ad referendum, and must 
then be taken up by negotiation by the State Department on the 
return of the delegation. But each conference has marked a very 
important step in bringing about later agreements, closer relations, 
and stronger spirit of cooperation and better feeling, better compre¬ 
hension of the purposes of the United States and of the countries 





70 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

of Central and South America, and have, served a very important 
purpose in that respect. 

Mr. Flood. Doctor, you have been connected a good many years ; 
with these conferences, have you not ? 

Mr. Rowe. I attended the Rio conference of 1906. Mr. Root made 
the trip to the conference as Secretary of State of the United States 
and addressed the conference. That was the only one of the Pan 
American conferences I attended as a delegate. I attended two of 
the scientific conferences. 

Mr. Flood. You are connected with the financial cenference? 

Mr. Rowe. Yes. 

Mr. Flood. You have seen the good which resulted from these 
conferences ? 

Mr. Rowe. I regard these Pan American conferences as not only 
a matter of importance but a matter of very vital interest to us. We 
are the sponsors; we originated them. It was due to the vision of 
Mr. Blaine that the American Republics came together for the dis¬ 
cussion of their needs; and, having taken the initiative and having 
accomplished this result in the development of Pan American policy, 
it would be almost unthinkable for us to abandon it. 

Mr. Dickinson. Is there any particular reason why you can not 
formulate a political policy when you are simply visiting; at a con¬ 
ference any better than at the State Department in an official way? 

Mr. Rowe. Except that you have this great advantage: You get 
together a group of men in common counsel. If you are negotiating 
a question with one country you talk it over with that one country 
through your diplomatic representative. Where you assemble the 
leading men of all the American States you develop the basis for 
new agreements as a result of interchange of opinion. 

The only other item I have to present to the committee is the 
Third Pan American Scientific Conference. I may preface my re¬ 
marks on this item with a statement that prior to the First Pan Amer¬ 
ican Scientific Conference there were three Latin American scien¬ 
tific conferences; that is to say, the leading men of science of the 
Latin American countries assembled to discuss questions in various 
fields of scientific endeavor. The first congress was held at Buenos 
Aires in 1898, the second at Montevideo in 1901, and the third at 
Rio de Janeiro in 1905. 

The Fourth Latin American Scientific Conference was called to 
convene at Santiago, Chile, in 1908, and the Chilean Government 
decided to broaden the scope of that conference and make it Pan 
American in scope by inviting the United States. I happened to be 
chairman of our delegation to the Santiago convention of 1908. We 
had a delegation of 10 members, and the important result of the 
conference was the fact that very definite ties were established be¬ 
tween scientific men in the United States and in all the countries 
represented at that conference. It was, in fact, a first step and a 
very important step in the development of closer cultural relations 
between the United States and those countries. I think we some¬ 
times forget that the traditional cultural currents of Latin America 
have been toward Europe rather than toward the United States, 
and that the establishment of these closer intellectual ties with those 
countries means that they understand our point of view much more 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 71 

accurately and that many of the misinterpretations of our American 
attitude toward them are thereby eliminated. 

The Santiago conference then, as a mark of deference to the United 
States, designated Washington as the place of meeting of the Second 
Pan American Scientific Conference, and that conference assembled 
at A ashington in December, 1915, and remained in session until 
early in January. 

As is the custom at these conferences, each conference designates 
the place of meeting of the next conference,'and they designated 
Lima, Peru, as the place of meeting of the third conference. 

Of course, it is impossible to speak of the concrete, tangible results 
of such a scientific conference, but it is important to recognize the 
fact that those conferences served to bring about a much closer un¬ 
derstanding between the intellectual leaders in the countries of Latin 
America and the scientific investigators in the United States. 

The Chairman. May I interrupt you with an inquiry: By whom 
are these delegates appointed? 

Mr. Rowe. They are appointed by the President of the United 
States. 

Mr. Ackerman. How many are there from the United States ? 

Mr. Rowe. At the Santiago conference there were 10; that is the 
first time we sent delegates to a conference. At the Washington 
conference the committee was'enlarged, because of the fact that we 
were hosts, and had to have a larger delegation to look after our 
guests. The plan is to send a delegation of about 10, representing 
different branches of science to the conference at Lima. 

Mr. Rogers. The Secretary of State recommends not fewer than 
7 or more than 10, I notice. 

Mr. Rowe. Of course, this Lima conference will probably be com¬ 
bined with a very important celebration. Peru celebrates the cen¬ 
tenary of her independence in 1921, and this conference will prob¬ 
ably be combined with the national celebration. Having been 
brought up in the university atmosphere myself, I can not help but 
emphasize as strongly as possible the importance of doing every¬ 
thing that we can to develop something in the nature of cultural 
ties between the peoples of Central and South America and the peo¬ 
ples of the United States. Purely official governmental relations are 
not sufficient nor adequate to the larger purpose of Pan American 
cooperation that this country has in view, and these scientific con¬ 
ferences are the only international gatherings that serve that pur¬ 
pose, and, as a result of each of these gatherings there are formed a 
series of ties between individuals and especially between institutions 
which are productive of important results. For instance, the San¬ 
tiago conference led to a plan for the interchange of students, for 
offering scholarships to teachers coming from Latin America to the 
United States and vice versa; and in that way establishing currents 
and counter currents of intellectual interchange which, while it is 
intangible, is of very great importance to the American Continent. 

The Chairman. In a word, the International Conference of Amer¬ 
ican States is political in nature and the Pan American Scientific 
Conference is scientific in nature? 

Mr. Rowe. Yes. 

The Chairman. Let me ask you this question: Why could not 
those matters be cared for by the Pan American Union? 



72 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Rowe. You must remember, Mr. Chairman, that while the 
Pan American Union is very deeply interested in all of these con¬ 
ferences, the Pan American Union, as such, is composed of the 
Latin American diplomatic representatives at Washington—the 
governing board being made up of the Secretary of State and the 
diplomatic representatives. They do assemble each month as a gov¬ 
erning board, but they can not in any way serve the purposes of a 
Pan American Scientific Congress. 

The Chairman. Granting that, why can not they handle political 
matters ? 

Mr. Rowe. Because of this fact: They get together for the pur¬ 
pose of dealing with things which the Pan American Union has to 
do. They do not get together for the discussion of a definite pro¬ 
gram such as the Pan American Conference. The Pan American 
Conference comes together with a definite program to discuss, to see 
whether definite agreements can be reached. The diplomatic repre¬ 
sentatives at Washington then supplement the work of the Pan 
American Conference by subsequently taking up matters in which 
the conference has taken the first step. 

Mr. Dickinson. Your whole theory is then that we ought to ap¬ 
propriate here $130,000 to encourage the commercial, social, edu¬ 
cational, and political relations of the South American Republics? 

Mr. Rowe. Yes. 

Mr. Dickinson. And you think the money will be well spent? 

Mr. Rowe. I am fairly convinced that there are few expenditures 
that will give us so large a return. 

Mr. Dickinson. Do you think that the past conferences have pro¬ 
duced such understandings on these various plans that you are justi¬ 
fied in recommending their continuation? 

Mr. Rowe. Entirely so. 

Mr. Conn ally. Is it not a fact that in these various conferences 
a great many matters can be discussed informally and tentatively 
which could not be handled by diplomatic representatives, on account 
of everything being through Government channels and matters of 
record? 

Mr. Rowe. There are a great many such instances. 

Mr. Connally. Is not that really the chief value of that, that you 
have a formal discussion that should not exist? 

Mr. Rowe. Yes; I entirely agree with that. There is no delega¬ 
tion that returns from such international conference that does not 
come back with a great many new views concerning the point of 
view of other countries, and it is a very great help to the Secretary 
of State to have thereafter the impressions received by the dele¬ 
gates of the United States as a result of their contact with the dele¬ 
gates of the other American countries. 

Mr. Connally. From my point of view, I think just purely from 
the political angle it is worth all the money we spend, even though 
the duties of these boards are strictly political. 

Mr. Rowe. I entirely agree with you. 

The Chairman. Granting Mr. Connally is correct in his position_ 

and I am very much inclined to agree with him—what function is 
left for the Pan American Union ? 

Mr. Rowe. The Pan American Union has a very definite and large 
function to perform. In the first place, it has a great educational 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 73 

function to perform, in making the people of the United States better 
acquainted with the civilization, the resources, and the needs of the 
peoples of Central and South America, and making the Latin Amer¬ 
ican countries better acquainted with affairs in the United States. 
The union has permanent organization, issues important publications, 
and w T orks unremittingly month after month in answering all kinds 
of inquiries from citizens of the United States and from people in 
the countries of Central and South America. The Pan American 
Union is the outward expression of the unity of purpose of the Amer¬ 
ican Continent. 

Mr. Powe. For instance, the Pan American Union publishes in 
Spanish and in Portuguese the monthly bulletin, which contains a 
great deal of trustworthy and valuable information, which is widely 
circulated in the United States and in Latin America. In addition, 
a valuable series of handbooks has been issued. The union receives 
thousands of inquiries from people in Latin America with reference 
to all sorts of matters in the United States. It is a great informa¬ 
tional and educational center. 

The Chairman. What is the nature of these inquiries ? 

Mr. Rowe. One man wants to know where he can send his son who 
wants to study engineering, how much it will cost, whether there will 
be anybody here to take care of the boy, who will take care of his 
finances. Another man w T ants to know where he can secure type¬ 
writers of a certain kind; another man wants to know something 
about the preparatory schools of the United States, being desirous 
of having his boy learn English. 

I am quite certain that Mr. Barrett could give you a far more com¬ 
prehensive statement than I can, but I know of innumerable in¬ 
quiries that come to him from all parts of this continent and the 
amount of correspondence with which he has to deal. The Pan 
American Union performs a function of great importance to the 
United States and Latin America. 

Mr. Moores. We all know that with two exceptions in South Amer¬ 
ica and one in Central America, and Mexico, the Latin American 
countries were in hearty cooperation with us during the European 
w T ar. To what do you attribute that ? 

Mr. Rowe. It was in part due to the fact that they appreciated the 
menace to them of a victory of central powers, and in part to the 
fact that they were in touch with the United States, and that they 
were beginning to appreciate a little more fully the purpose and 
policy of the United States. 

Of course, some of the countries acted immediately in order to 
demonstrate their solidarity with the United States. Panama and 
Cuba immediately declared war, practically the same date as our own 
declaration. 

In other cases where war was not declared, declarations were made 
to show the sympathy with the United States. In the case of Bolivia, 
diplomatic relations were severed. At first Guatemala severed diplo¬ 
matic relations and later on declared war; Brazil severed diplomatic 
relations and placed all ports at the disposal of the United States. 

I believe that unity of purpose was accomplished by reason of the 
fact that since 1889 at the time Mr. Blaine started in very tangible 
form the Pan-American movement, we have been moving forward 
toward a closer understanding with the nations of Latin America. 


74 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Of course, the difference of language is a very considerable obstacle, 
which requires much longer effort to bring about these ends than 
if we spoke the same language. But I am convinced that the various 
conferences of a formal and informal nature have all contributed 
toward the end which expressed itself in the unity of purpose of so 
many of the countries when the United States entered the European 
War. 

Mr. Moores. Was it purely Latin-American eccentricity that the 
President’s protege in Mexico was fighting us all the time, when his 
enemy in Guatemala declared war at the same time w T e did on the 
central powers? 

Mr. Rowe. You mean the attitude of Guatemale compared with 
Mexico ? 

Mr. Moores. Yes; was that simply an eccentricity, or what was it? 

Mr. Rowe. I do not know that I have sufficient inside information 
to answer that. 

The Chairman. The committee will now stand adjourned to meet 
to-morrow morning at 10 o’clock sharp. 

(Thereupon, at 1.05 o’clock p. m., the committee adjourned to meet 
to-morrow, Friday, at 10 o’clock a. m.) 


Committee on Foreign Affairs, 

House of Representatives, 

Washing ton, D. CJanuary 9 , 1920. 

The committee assembled at 10.30 o’clock a. m., Hon. Stephen G. 
Porter (chairman) presiding. 

The Chairman. How would you like to take the estimates up, Mr. 
Carr? 

STATEMENT OF HON. WILBUR J. CARR, DIRECTOR OF THE CON¬ 
SULAR SERVICE, STATE DEPARTMENT—Resumed. 

Mr. Carr. Do you care to follow the arrangement of the bill, Mr. 
Chairman ? 

The Chairman. Yes; we would like to do that. 

Mr. Carr. There is one thing I would like to say to the commit¬ 
tee before-1 begin, and that is that at the previous hearing before 
the committee criticism was particularly directed to the offices at 
London and Paris not being open before 10 o’clock in the morning, 
and being closed for two hours in the middle of the day, and 
opened again about 3 o’clock for the transaction of passport business. 

I merely want to say, for the information of the committee, that 
when that matter was brought to the attention of the Secretary on 
the occasion of the hearing on the vise appropriation in November, 
the Secretary sent this telegram to all the missions’and consulates 
in foreign countries, dated November 11, 1919: 

Department receives numerous complaints that Americans visiting missions 
and consulates regarding passports do not receive prompt con ideration. De¬ 
partment holds heads of missions and consulates responsible that visitors re¬ 
ceive prompt and courteous consideration. Pa* sport offices should remain open 
for visitors seven hours each day, keeping open during lunch period if pos¬ 
sible. Inform consulates. 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 75 

So that the department has tried to correct the condition com¬ 
plained of. 

Mr. Conn ally. Mr. Chairman, I want to make myself clear on 
that; I was somewhat misunderstood. I did not notice any trouble 
about people not being able to get service or attention at those places. 
I merely said something about not working long hours; but that 
was really based on the statements of Mr. Linthicum and Mr. Flood, 
who have been over there, rather than my own personal experience. 

What I was talking about was the disposition among the small 
fry at the consulates and embassies to try to imitate and ape the 
foreigners; that is what I am complaining about—trying to walk 
like one, holding his stick like one, wearing his handkerchief like 
one, and trying to talk like one. [Laughter.] 

Mr. Carr. I would just like to say, for myself individually, and 
I think I can say it for the department as well, that I am very much 
obliged to you, not only for your criticisms, Mr. Connally, but for 
the criticisms that Mr. Linthicum and Mr. Flood made, because it 
is by such criticisms that we are able to correct the shortcomings 
in our organization. 

Mr. Connally. Well. T was at Paris, and London, and Pome, and 
also in Belgium, and, as far as the service was concerned, I had not 
any complaint to make; and I did not see anyone who was not get¬ 
ting service. 

Mr. Carr. I would like Mr. Lay, who was in Paris until very 
recently, to say just a word on that point for the information of the 
committee, if I may, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Certainly. 

Mr. Lay. Unquestionably, the condition to which reference was 
made in the criticisms applied to the passport bureau in Paris. We 
formed a passport bureau by consolidating all passport work under 
one roof, in a building apart both from the embassy and the consu¬ 
late general. That was for the purpose of centralizing control for 
all France of passports during the war. 

This building, while adequate during the war because travel was 
somewhat restricted, after the war, when travel resumed, became more 
or less inadequate; and as long as we had the old machinery by which 
we tried to apprehend people inimical to the national defense, espion¬ 
age, etc., the machinery was a very cumbersome thing. 

The consequence was that this passport bureau was burdened with 
a bulk of work that really it should not have had on it at that par¬ 
ticular time. We could not, in other words, relinquish control as rap¬ 
idly as travel was resumed. As a consequence, the building in which 
the bureau was housed became more or less inadequate. We had'a 
tremendous amount of paper work, because every vise recorded any¬ 
where in France came up to the passport bureau for decision. There 
were hundreds and hundreds of reports of various kinds on the move¬ 
ments and activities of individuals; and most of the work of the bu¬ 
reau is unseen by the public, you might say, because of the fact that 
it is paper work. In that sense, the conduct of a passport control 
office is more or less on the order of the work of a bank; its actual 
business hours can not last all day, because they have a tremendous 
bulk of paper work to do. 

I presume the period to which the criticisms were directed was the 
latter part of the summer, when that condition became very acute. 



76 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

We had from 1,500 to 2,000 people visiting this bureau daily, and 
we had very limited quarters; and so far as the interior, the reception 
rooms, were concerned, only a few people could get in there at a time— 
say 75; that would crowd the place absolutely; the rest of them would 
have to stand on the outside in order to keep down a riot, you might 
say—to keep them from pushing each other, because they all wanted 
to get their vises first. There is delay in those things anyway. But 
they would stand on the stairway and make a queue down to this little 
entrance to the building; and to the observer that looks very bad, 
because it looks like a tremendous run on the passport bureau and an 
inability on the part of the bureau to handle crowds; whereas, it 
was done in as orderly a manner as we could have done it; because as 
many people as the reception rooms would hold were let in at once, 
and then as rapidly as they went out of one entrance others were let 
in the other. 

Of course, there was some impatience; there always will be some 
impatience. But I do not think there was as much impatience at our 
bureau, or ever has beeii, as was the case with the other bureaus, in¬ 
cluding the French prefecture of police and the British and other 
bureaus of control. 

That condition was especially acute early in the morning, when 
every person wanting a vise thought he would get in first; so he ar¬ 
rived very early in the morning, sometimes long before it was possible 
to get the office under way; I have seen as many as 800 or 900 people 
accumulate early in the morning to get their vises first. If they had 
strung that out over the whole day, of course, it would have mate¬ 
rially aided us in handling that business; but with a rush of that 
kind at 9 o’clock in the morning and with a limited force to receive 
the people, of course you get a condition that does not look very 
well. 

I think that will explain a portion of the rush and the incon¬ 
venience that Americans had there. 

That condition has been largely changed, because the vises exacted 
of Americans are not the same now as before; they travel with a 
great deal more freedom. We have been able to modify the rules 
as regards traveling Americans, and the Americans have* themselves 
largely disappeared from the bureau, in the matter of applying for 
vises; whereas the number of foreigners applying has correspond¬ 
ingly increased. Therefore, we still have rather large crowds. 

Mr. Houghton. Is there any reason why the bureau can not be 
run, as you say, like a bank, constantly through a certain number 
of hours? Is there any reason why it should shut down at noon for 
two hours? 

Mr. Lay. Well, in France that is the general practice. I thought 
the bureau ran during the lunch hour. 

Mr. Houghton. I do not know myself; because our habit would 
be to run it from one time to another without cessation; and I won¬ 
dered if there was any real reason, if it was not done, why it was not 
done—and the information that we have is that it was not. 

Mr. Lay. There is no consulate in France that closes during the 
lunch hour; the consulate general never closes during the lunch hour 
The passport bureau at that time, and up to recently, was under the 
direction of the embassy. It did not run full tilt during the lunch 
hour, but it had people there who could attend to the callers 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


77 


As a matter of efficient administration, it is better, really, to close 
from 12 to 2 o’clock in France; from 12 to 2 it is almost impossible 
to accomplish anything in the matter of working on the outside, 
with banks or other institutions. Everything closes; there is not 
anything that remains open; and the only person who ever called 
under any circumstances would be some. American who was not 
familiar with that practice in France. Most of them are familiar 
with it after they have been there a little while, because everyone 
that they have tried to see has been out at that hour. It really 
would make for more efficient administration in that particular 
country if it was possible to close during those hours; but the de¬ 
partment has recognized for a long while that Americans should 
have facilities at their disposal throughout the entire day, because 
that is what they are accustomed to in their own country; and for 
that reason the department has not permitted consulates to close 
during the lunch hour; they stay open all day long. 

Mr. Moores. They have a way of closing on holidays, however, 
have they not? 

Mr. Lay. On holidays they close; yes. 

Mr. Moores. Some of our merchants have been very greatly an¬ 
noyed by the fact that several holidays come along together. 

Mr. Lay. You see, in those countries there is a little question there 
of respect to the country itself; because they have their own national 
holidays that, of course, we must observe; and some of those holidays 
are leligious; and where the religious factor is an important one, in 
a country like France, we have to observe their religious holidays; 
otherwise it would be an affront to the French people, you might 
say. Their law requires these things; and furthermore, their law 
requires that they do what they call “ making a bridge ”; that is, 
when a holiday falls on a Friday, they stretch it over until Monday. 
The law requires that; and a business firm breaks the law when it 
does not take the extra holiday and give the employees a recreation 
over the week-end. 

Mr. Rogers. Is the same thing true when a holiday falls on Tues¬ 
day ? 

Mr. Lay. When a holiday falls on Tuesday, Monday is a holiday. 

Now, of course, you can see at once the point of view of the travel¬ 
ing American when that interferes with his business; yet in some in¬ 
stances it is absolutely obligatory on the part of the consulate to ob¬ 
serve strictly such holidays; otherwise the French would be offended. 

Mr. Carr. From the point of view that the consul is a guest of the 
country. 

Mr. Lay. Yes. 

The Chairman. Well, if there are no further questions, we will 
hear Mr. Carr on the estimates. 

Mr. Carr. Is there anything further you wish me to say as to the 
item on page 3, Mr. Chairman, “ Salaries of ambassadors and minis¬ 
ters ”? 

SALARIES OF AMBASSADORS AND MINISTERS. 

Mr. Rogers. I have one comment to make on that, and that is on 
the mathematics in line 10 and in line 17. 

In the first place, it appears that if the recommendation of the 
department is to be followed, there are to be five ministers at $15,000 


78 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

each; and yet it gives the total as $45,000. It should be $75,000; or 
if the present figures stand, the total should be five times $12,000, or 
$60,000, instead of $36,000, as it appears within the brackets. 

Mr. Carr. I see. I do not know how to account for that. 

Mr. Houghton. It is because you put in two new States, Czecho¬ 
slovakia and Poland. 

Mr. Carr. Yes; I see. 

Mr. Rogers! And again, in line 17, page 3, I think that paragraph 
comprehends 26 ministers. 

Mr. Dickinson. Twenty-seven. 

Mr. Rogers. I made it 26. I think it must be 26, because I think 
you have counted Greece and Montenegro as separate States. 

Mr. Dickinson. That is right. 

Mr. Rogers. Twenty-six times $12,000 is $312,000, instead of $336,- 
000, assuming that the $12,000 salary is adopted as recommended by 
the department. 

Mr. Carr. I think that must have happened in this way: I think 
our original estimates did not include Czechoslovakia or Poland in 
the $15,000 salaries, but only the other three, which would have 
made the $45,000. And then a change was made later, and in order 
to bring those two up into that higher class we took them from the 
other class, but failed to change the figures, apparently, in the com¬ 
mittee print. 

Mr. Rogers. And you did not change the figures in either place ? 

Mr. Carr. We are supposed to have revised the committee print 
ourselves, but evidently we did not revise it correctly. 

The Chairman. Yes; we made that mistake, too. 

Mr. Carr. Yes; you were kind enough to refer the revision to us, 
and apparently we failed to make those changes. 

The Chairman. What are the correct figures? 

Mr. Rogers. The correct figures are $75,000 in line 10 and $312,000 
in line 17, page 3; and, of course, that necessitates a revision of the 
total figure in line 24 also. 

The Chairman. That makes the total $387,000. 

Mr. Houghton. That increases the ultimate total $6,000, does it 
not? 

Mr. Carr. I can have that recast if you desire, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. No; that is not necessary. 

Mr. Temple. It increases the amount in line 10 from $45,000 to 
$75,000, which is an increase of $30,000; and it decreases the amount 
in line 17 from $336,000 to $312,000, which is a decrease of $24,000. 

Mr. Rogers. Yes. 

The Chairman. That would make a difference of $6,000 to be 
added to the ultimate total in line 24. 

Does the committee desire to hear anything further on this ques¬ 
tion of the ambassadors, ministers, and consuls? 

Mr. Rogers. If it is in order at this time, Mr. Chairman, I have 
some questions I should like to ask relative to the item on page 4, 
salaries of secretaries in the Diplomatic Service. 

Mr. Houghton. Ought we not to change the total at the bottom 
of the page before you take that up ? 

Mr. Rogers. Well, I take it that we are going to take this bill 
up in executive session. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 79 

Mr. Houghton. I mean you have a total here of $775,000 which 
ought to be $781,000. 

Mr. Rogers. Yes. 

Mr. Conn ally. I notice, Mr. Carr, that you have placed the min¬ 
isters to Czechoslovakia and Poland in the $15,000 class; and yet 
I notice further down that Sweden, for instance, is only in the $12,- 
000 class. Is that not a little out of proportion? 

Mr. Carr. That was done under this theory, Mr. Connally: We 
took all of those ministers who were receiving salaries of $12,000 
and raised them to $15,000 without making any rearrangement; and 
we took all of those ministers who were receiving $10,000 and raised 
them to $12,000 under these estimates. We did not undertake to 
rearrange or change the relative rank in respect to salaries. 

Mr. Connally. I know; that is all right; but then Czechoslova¬ 
kia and Poland had no ministers. Were they classified? 

Mr. Carr. Yes; they were classified; they have a salary of $12,000 
each. 

Mr. Connally. They have ? I did not know that. 

Mr. Carr. Yes; it was the salary fixed by Congress. 

Mr. Houghton. When was it fixed? 

Mr. Carr. It was fixed by Congress last year. 

Mr. Connally. I did not know that. 

Mr. Carr. So that we did not undertake to change anything that 
Congress had finally passed upon, except by raising each of the 
salaries- 

Mr. Houghton (interposing). Let me ask you, is there any rea¬ 
son why the ministers in Poland and Czechoslovakia should receive 
a higher rate than Sweden, or various other countries? 

Mr. Carr. Personally, I do not think so. Personally, I think 
Sweden and Denmark ought to receive as much as Czechoslovakia; 
I think they ought to receive as much as Cuba, for example. 

Mr. Houghton. Yes; one would think so. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. I think there is a good deal left to be desired in the 
classification of those missions. 

Mr. Connally. That is what prompted my question. 

Mr. Carr. The reclassification of the salaries of ministers, plus the 
appropriation of a local allowance, or post allowance, to adjust the 
particular salaries to the particular localities, would be the ideal way 
of arranging it. Then, ior example, if you had a $15,000 salary in 
one place and you wanted to send him to another place where living 
expenses were, perhaps, 25 or 50 per cent more, you could send him 
there with ease, merely increasing the local allowance, which he 
would have so long as he remained in that place, to be discontinued, 
or, rather, readjusted as soon as he left the place. That is the sim¬ 
plest and most effective way of adjusting grade salaries to locali¬ 
ties. 

Mr. Houghton. Is that method followed by other nations? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. The Government which did that most conspic¬ 
uously, perhaps, was the German Government before the war. The 
German Government paid a very small grade salary, and the reason 
it paid a very small grade salary was that it had a retirement pen¬ 
sion based upon the grade salary. So it gave all of its officials rather 
small salaries, in comparison with ours, but fixed a local allowance 
for each post in the service, based upon the relative cost of living, or 


80 


diplomatic and consular appropriation bill. 


the amount or kind of representation which it desired in that par¬ 
ticular place the total of which was considerably in excess of the 
salaries paid by the United States. For instance, I have known ot 
cases in the consular service where the salary of a consul genei a 
was perhaps, $2,500 a year, but the local allowance might be 
and again,that $2,500 man would go to New York as consul general 
and receive a local allowance of, perhaps, $10,00 • , , , 

Mr. Houghton. Yes. That means a large undistributed total at 

the disposition of the department, does it not® 

Mr Care. Either at the disposition of the department or revised 


in detail each year by Congress. .... • . , , a. 

The Chairman. Would there be any objection in yourmmd to the 
raisino- of Sweden, Norway, and Switzerland to the $12,000 class 
and putting Czechoslovakia and Poland in the $10,000 class. 

Mr. Carr. I think it would be unfortunate to reduce any one ot 


Mr. Rogers. This is not a reduction, is it, Mr. Carr? 

The Chairman. It is not a reduction. 

Mr. Carr. Do you mean in the revision of this? 

The Chairman. I did not understand. I do not know. My idea is 
that Sweden and Norway, and Switzerland should have the same rep¬ 
resentation as China and Cuba. 

Mr. Rogers. How about Greece and Portugal and Denmark? Are 
they not first-rate secondary powers? 

Mr. Carr. Denmark certainly ought to be in the same class as 
Sweden. 

The Chairman. Well, that is true. 

Mr. Temphe. I would put Denmark and Sweden in a better class 
than Cuba. 

The Chairman. Yes; it would seem so. 

Mr. Carr. There is a reason for Cuba’s position in the first class: 
At the time the minister to Cuba was given that salary I think the 
United States wanted to put the Cuban mission on just about as 
high a plane as it could, without being entirely out of proportion to 
the others, because of our special relation to Cuba. 

Mr. Temple. The American minister in Cuba is now getting 
$10,000, is he? 

Mr. Carr. He is now getting $12,000. 

Mr. Temple. And the proposal is to make it $15,000? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Temple. Would there be any reason for increasing it from 
$12,000. Or would it be considered a humiliation if we left it at 
$12,000 and did not raise it? 

Mr. Carr. Of course, you have a good reason for not raising it, 
and that is that the Government owns its legation in Cuba and does 
not own buildings in these other countries, except China. So there 
is that reason for not raising the salary of the minister to Cuba. 

Mr. Temple. If we just left it where it is, would that have the bad 
effect that it would have if we reduced the salary? 

Mr. Carr. No ; I think not. 

Mr. Rogers. But the fundamental point is that we are creating 
two classes, and the question is whether a given country is in class 1 
or class 2. Now, Cuba has always been in the preferred class of 
ministers. However you may disguise the fact, the change which 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


81 


you propose would leave it in the second class, and I think Cuba 
would resent that. 

Mr. Temple. Well, that is worth considering, of course. 

Mr. Dickinson. What is your opinion, Mr. Carr, on the elimina¬ 
tion of Turkey from the first division? 

Mr. Carr. I personally do not think—and I believe that is the view 
of the department—that there should be any positive action with 
regard to the grade of the missions to Turkey, Germany, or Austria 
until there is reached a definite settlement in regard to those countries. 
We do not know at the present time whether the wise thing will be 
to have an embassy in Vienna or not. We all think it will not be wise 
to have an embassy or will not be necessarjr to have an embassy at 
Vienna; but if we take any positive step now we act upon the ques¬ 
tion in advance of our possession of the facts on which to take intel¬ 
ligent and final action. And it would be susceptible of misinterpre¬ 
tation. I think it would be wiser not to do anything now- 

Mr. Linthicum. Why do you doubt the wisdom of having an 
embassy in Vienna? 

Mr. Carr. Because if the treaty should go through as it now stands 
Austria will be so reduced in size and importance as to make it un¬ 
necessary to have a diplomatic representative of the grade of ambas¬ 
sador there. 

Mr. Linthicum. What would be the population there—about 
4,000,000 or 5,000,000? 

Mr. Carr. I could not tell you; it would be very small in compari¬ 
son with what it was and the diplomatic mission would be reduced in 
importance. 

Mr. Linthicum. You have embassies in Norway and Sweden and 
those countries, hove you not? 

Mr. Carr. No; only legations. 

Mr. Linthicum. Just a minister? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Linthicum. And that is what you think, it would be better 
to have it at Vienna? 

Mr. Carr. Well, I think probably that will be the ultimate out¬ 
come; but I do not believe we are in a position yet to say what we 
ought to have. 

Mr. Temple. There is nothing in the bill about Hungary, is 
there ? 

Mr. Carr. Nothing at all; there has been no determination of our 
proper relation to that country. 

The Chairman. From the standpoint of the department, there 
would be no objection to a rearrangement of this classification, would 
there ? 

Mr. Carr. I do not think so. 

The Chairman. Personally, I do not think Czechoslovakia- 

Mr. Carr (interposing). So long as you do not reduce the grade 
of a mission. Other countries are very quick to take offense at that 
sort of thing. 

The Chairman. Well, my idea would not be to reduce any, but to 
take Czechoslovakia and Poland out of class 1 and put them in 
class 2. 

Mr. Carr. If you increase the salaries in the bill ? 

161477—20-6 


82 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

The Chairman. Well, whether we do or not. 

Mr. Carr. This reclassification is based upon the theory that you 
are going to increase the salaries of class 1 from $12,000 to $15,000. 
Now, Czechoslovakia and Poland are in the $12,000 class. I think 
it would be unfortunate to reduce them to $10,000. 

Mr. Houghton. But you do not have to. 

Mr. Carr. But I think it might not be unfortunate if you should 
leave them at $12,000, and raise some of the others to $15,000. 

Mr. Houghton. Your proposition is to raise all these second-rate 
ministers to $12,000? 

Mr. Carr. Quite so. 

Mr. Houghton. Now, if Czechoslovakia and Poland were left at 
$12,000, they would be in a class lower than they are now. Is there 
any political reason why that should not be done? 

Mr. Carr. I do not think so. 

Mr. Houghton. Then, why do you leave them in class 1 at $3,000 
additional ? 

Mr. Carr. Merely because we did not attempt to reclassify what 
Congress had already classified. Congress had already placed them 
in class 1; so, regardless of the salary, we did not undertake to place 
them in another class. 

Mr. Houghton. Is there any political motive back of this classifi- 
cation, or is it based largely on the work to be done in the office— 
outside of Cuba? 

Mr. Carr. I think the same reasons that apply to Cuba apply, to a 
certain extent, with regard to China. 

Mr. Houghton. Well, China, of course, is a special case. 

Mr. Carr. But with reference to Czechoslovakia and Poland, there 
was no political reason whatsoever. 

Mr. Houghton. And the Netherlands and Luxemburg? 

Mr. Carr. As to the Netherlands and Luxemburg, I do not think 
at the time it was done there was any special political reason. I am 
inclined to think, in reference to the Netherlands, that the depart- i 
ment would now take the view that it would be wise to keep it in the ; 
first clasp, because of the particular relation of the Netherlands to the 
various international undertakings with which it is so closelv iden¬ 
tified. 

Mr. Houghton. That is a good reason. 

Mr. Carr. And being the seat of the Peace Palace, and so on, I 
think the department would probably take the position that the 
Netherlands ought to be in class 1. 

Mr. Temple. Might there not be political reasons—that is, rea¬ 
sons of policy—in the case of Poland? 

Mr. Carr. It is very easy to believe that there might be. But I may 
say that at the time the salaries were estimated for I think the de¬ 
partment had no political reason in mind for placing them in the 
$12,000 or the $10,000 class. It was thought that, as the ministers 
were all underpaid, it Avas better to estimate for the two new ones in 
the higher class than in the lower one, and thus get more salary for 
them. 

Mr. Temple. Poland is going to be a very important barrier- 

Mr. Carr (interposing). No one can say quite how important 
Poland is going to be. If the Government stands, as we hope it 
will, it is likely to be of tremendous importance. 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


83 


SECRETARIES IN TIIE DIPLOMATIC SERVICE. 

The Chairman. Mr. Rogers, you wanted to ask something about 
the salaries on page 4 of the bill, did you not? 

Mr. Rogers. Yes. As as a foundation for my inquiries, I should 
like to ask Mr. Carr to put in the record a table showing the number 
of secretaries in each class proposed under the new appropriation; 
the salaries and the totals. 

Mr. Carr. Yes, sir; I shall be glad to do so. You said “pro¬ 
posed under the new appropriation ” ? 

Mr. Rogers. Yes; that is, break up that $486,500 appropriation 
so that the committee will see what use you propose to make of it. 

Mr. Carr. We propose to put in class 1, at $6,000, 20 secretaries; 
that is a total of $120,000. In class 2, at $4,000, we propose to put 
27 secretaries, at a total cost of $108,000. In class 3, at $3,000, 41 
secretaries, at a total cost of $123,000. In class 4, at $2,500, 47 sec¬ 
retaries, at a total cost of $117,500. That is, the numbers are dis¬ 
tributed in exact accordance with the present classification, the sal¬ 
aries merely being raised. 

Mr. Rogers. Well, that, as I understand it, totals 135 secretaries. 

Mr. Carr. That totals 135 secretaries exactly. 

Mr. Rogers. In order for you to increase the number of secre¬ 
taries, do you have to have a specific authorization from Congress, 
or do you assume that the grant of a certain sum of money consti¬ 
tutes the authorization? 

Mr. Carr. Congress has pursued a policy for a number of years 
of classifying the secretaries—that is to say, of classifying salaries 
of secretaries and of appropriating in a lump sum, to be distributed 
according to that classification, but without specifying how many 
secretaries there should be in a given class. So that the department 
has pursued a policy of determining for itself, consistent with the 
appropriation, the number of secretaries that should be in each 
salary class. 

Mr. Rogers. Well, if the department desired, it would be able to 
appoint 75 secretaries of class 1, at $6,000, and no secretaries of 
classes 2, 3, and 4? 

Mr. Carr. That is true, but always subject to the consent of the 
Senate and subsequent review b}^ the House. 

Mr. Rogers. I mean approximately that, because 75 secretaries at 
$6,000 would be within the appropriation of $486,500. 

I notice that in the hearings for last year, you stated in a tablo 
which appears on page 47 of those hearings, that there were then 88 
secretaries, divided up as follows: 16 of class 1, 16 of class 2, 36 of 
class 3, and 20 of class 4. And you estimated for the ensuing period 
a total of 110 secretaries, divided up as follows: 16 of class 1, which 
was the old figure; 25 of class 2, as against 16; 44 of class 3, as against 
36; and 25 of class 4, as against 20. In other words, you contem¬ 
plated an increase of 22 secretaries. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. Now, as far as I can see, without any way for the 
committee to arrive at that, except by deduction and questioning, you 
propose to increase the number from 110 to 135; and the department 
has carte blanche in deciding whether you shall have 75 secretaries 





84 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

at $6,000 a year, or whether you shall have something like 500 secre¬ 
taries, perhaps, at $2,500 a year. 

It strikes me that that is an artificial way of appropriating, and 
that it gives a rather wider latitude than you need and wider, per¬ 
haps, than, as a matter of correct legislation, you ought to have. 

Mr. Carr. Well, that adjusts itself, very largely, by the manner of 
operating the service. You can not have more than a certain number 
of secretaries in the first class, because secretaries of the first class are 
the so-called counsellors of embassies. There can not, on the other 
hand, be more than a certain number in each of the other classes, 
because each class must bear a certain relation to the others in order 
to insure an adequate number from which selections may be made for 
promotion. The system of promotion for merit can not be operated 
on any other plan. 

Mr. Houghton. 'But they need not be counsellors; that is within 
your own discretion. 

Mr. Carr. Yes; but the moment you get too many in that class 
you begin to destroy the morale of your service. The salaries natur¬ 
ally follow the experience and capability of the men, and the number 
of offices that you have to cover. For instance, the embassy in Lon¬ 
don scarcely ever will have more than one counsellor, and then there 
will be a number of second, third, and fourth class secretaries. 
There can not be any serious misuse of authority in this regard, 
because, in the first place, the salaries are fixed by Congress in the 
act of February 5, 1915; every change of a man from one class to 
another must have the consent of the Senate, which gives that body 
complete control over the numbers placed in each class; all of the 
expenditures are annually reported to Congress in the most minute 
detail and are, therefore, made subject to inquiry; and, finally, the 
maintenance of the merit system, to which the administration is 
pledged, requires that the higher classes should not be filled up at 
the expense of the lower classes. 

Mr. Bogers. Well, under your present appropriation, which is 
something less than $300,000, you have made your nominal staff the 
same—135—that you propose to continuue under the increase, have 
you not? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Bogers. So that the 135 secretaries, even if we give you the 
new appropriation, are all provided for at this moment, even*though 
there may be some vacancies? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. We have our classification here of 135 secretaries, 
at a total cost of $284,000. 

Mr. Bogers. And you told me the other day that there were no 
vacancies in either of the first two classes, but that there were five 
vacancies in class 3 and 23 vacancies in class 4. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Bogers. So that I think the tendency—and the very natural 
tendency, considering the scale of salaries now existing—is to put the 
men into the higher classes more rapidly than they, perhaps, deserve 

Mr. Carr. No; I can not admit that. I do not think they do £ 0 
up more rapidly than they deserve. I think the marvel is that we are 
able to hold them going up as slowly as they do. 

Mr. Temple. Perhaps they get a higher classification because of 
the lower salaries than they would if the lower grades received higher 
salaries ? 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL, 85 

Mr. Carr. I do not think there is a great deal of that. 

Mr. Rogers. I do not think you quite understand me, Mr. Carr. 
I am entirely in sympathy with a much higher scale of salaries for 
the secretaries; and I think the marvel is that the service is as good 
as it is, and not that it ought to be better. But the question is 
whether, in order to give a man a little higher salary, you ought to 
put him up to class 2, for example, more rapidly than his length of 
service justifies. 

Mr. Carr. Not unless he has demonstrated the qualities that a man 
in class 2 ought to possess. I do not think it is so much a question 
of how much time a man in class 3 has served as it is a question of 
the qualities a man develops in class 3. I think as between two men 
we should only consider the time that the men have spent in class 3 if 
the capabilities of the two men are substantially equal. It is the old 
question of a selective system versus a seniority system; and if we 
do not emphasize the selective system our service is going to go to 
pieces. If we depend upon a seniority system of promotion in either 
or both branches of the service, the service is going to deteriorate. 
So long as men can get promotions for the length of time they have 
served, they are not going to put forth their best efforts, and you 
are not going to place a premium upon real ability and real initia¬ 
tive; whereas if you pursue the plan of a selective system, except 
where the merits are substantially equal, then you put a premium 
on initiative and ability. 

Mr. Rogers. I quite agree that we must have a selective system; 
but even in the proper application of the selective system there is 
some consideration to be given to the period of service of a man. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. For example, even a Metternich or a Disraeli would 
not have been put in a position of counselor if he had not begun his 
service at the bottom; even if his abilities were known, he would 
have been obliged to remain a certain time in the service in order to 
familiarize himself with the duties of that grade. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. Now, the question is whether, in order to overcome as 
far as you can the salary deficiencies, which I believe we all admit, 
you are not putting a man up into class 2, and perhaps into class 1 
also, rather faster than is customary in other services or than you 
w T ould otherwise do in our own service? 

Mr. Carr. No; I do not think so; not to my knowledge, at least. 
You will understand, of course, that I do not have anything to do 
with the promotion of secretaries. 

Mr. Rogers. Yes. 

Mr. Carr. It does not fall under my jurisdiction. But in reference 
to the Consular Service, where, by the way, this same identical plan 
exists, the higher grades are not made use of merely for the purpose 
of increasing a man’s salary. 

Mr. Rogers. You said there were 23 vacancies in the lowest class? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. Those vacancies arose, then, not because the men in 
that class have been pushed up to the higher classes? 

Mr. Carr. No. 

Mr, Rogers. But because you have not been able to get men for 
that class? 


86 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Carr. Because we have not been able to get sufficient secre¬ 
taries. 

Mr. Rogers. How short are you now in the field because of the 23 
vacancies in class 4? 

Mr. Carr. I can not say exactly, but I know there are a number of 
legations that are very much handicapped by lack of secretaries. A 
short time ago—I do not know whether the conditions have since im¬ 
proved or not; but a few months ago we had scarcely a secretary in 
Central America and in some of the South American countries we 
had no secretaries. 

Mr. Houghton. What do you think, Mr. Carr, is the reason of 
your inability to bring men into class 4 ? 

Mr. Carr. It is unquestionably due to two things. In the first 
place, the salary is utterly out of keeping with the work to be done 
and the responsibilities to be assumed and the expenses to be in¬ 
curred. In the second place, there is the fundamental fact that there 
is not enough opportunity of promotion at the top. When a man 
gets up to the grade of counselor, he can not go any further, except 
in very few instances. And you can not attract the kind of men that 
you and I, I am sure, would like to see in the service, unless you give 
them an opportunity to go into something higher than being second 
man at a post at a salary of only $3,000. 

Mr. Houghton. Which one of those two do you think is the more 
weighty? You have assigned two reasons. 

Mr. Carr. Of course, I think the latter. 

Mr. Houghton. So do I. Do you think the other has really very 
much to do with it ? 

Mr. Carr. I think it has a good deal to do with it; and I should 
dislike to be understood as minimizing its importance. Because it 
does not seem to me that we ought to favor any system which makes 
it impossible for a man without means, although he may have ex¬ 
traordinary ability, to go into a service like this and serve his Gov¬ 
ernment. 

Mr. Houghton. Of course, we all agree with that. 

Mr. Carr. I think we ought to pay sufficient salary so that the 
ablest of our young men, regardless of their personal circumstances, 
may find it possible to get into this service and render their country 
good service abroad. 

Mr. Houghton. What age are these young men in class 4 ? 

Mr. Carr. They are usually, I should say, from 21 to 30; around 
that age. 

Mr. Linthicum. What salary do you think they ought to receive ? 
If you raised the salary of class 4, you would naturally have to raise 
the salaries of the other classes also, would you not? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Linthicum. Well, what salaries would you recommend to get 
the proper men into the service ? 

Mr. Carr. I think the scale that the department has submitted 
would, with a judicious use of post allowances, enable us to obtain 
and keep the services of the kind of men who would render the Gov¬ 
ernment the best service. 

Mr. Houghton. Even without the process of promotion ? 

Mr. Carr. You can not get the highest class of men unless you. give 
them something to aspire to beyond $3,000 and being second man at 
a post. 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 87 

Mr. Houghton. Yes; I understand. 

Mr. Carr. You can improve the service very considerably, I 
think, by this scale of salaries. You can prevent by this scale of 
salaries a lot of secretaries, a lot of able secretaries, from leaving 
the service; and I may say that I am perfectly confident that a num¬ 
ber of the ablest men that we have are going to leave the service 
in the near future—I do not mean next week, or perhaps the next 
six months, but in the comparatively near future—unless they can 
have something better to look forward to. I have in mind two or 
three men, at least, who on the outside would command from $15,000 
to $18,000 a year, who are serving to-day for $3,000 in our service; 
one in particular, for whom I have the highest regard, and I am 
sure you would also if you knew him, is a man who could go to 
New York any day almost and get $20,000 a year. He is a coun¬ 
selor to-day at $3,000. When we get to another item I am going 
to read to you an extract from a letter from him which sets forth 
his views of what he is going to be compelled to do if some means 
are not found to make it possible for him to live on his income. 

Mr. Linthicum. May I ask you one question? Will you give us 
an outline of the duties of the secretaries in class 4? About what 
work do they perform? 

Mr. Carr. They do various kinds of work about the office, draft¬ 
ing correspondence; going to the various ministries in the capital; 
getting information for the ambassador, or the minister; seeing vis¬ 
itors ; making social contacts. By the way, it is through those social 
contacts oftentimes that the success of an ambassador or minister 
depends. One reason why you find in Washington, in certain of 
the embassies, a number of young secretaries, who are always to be 
found at social gatherings, dinners, and elsewhere, is that they are, 
you might say, the tentacles at the head of the mission in forming 
contacts, in gathering information, in finding out the sentiment at 
the Capital and among public men; and it is that very thing that en¬ 
ables the head of the mission to perform his most important func¬ 
tions for his Government. 

Mr. Linthicum. And all of that abroad costs considerable money, 
but it is really borne by those men themselves, is it not ? 

Mr. Carr. Those young men? 

Mr. Linthicum. Yes; those who circulate around in social func¬ 
tions, and so on. 

Mr. Carr. It does not cost the Government a cent. They pay it 
out of their own pockets and out of their own private incomes. 

Mr. Linthicum. That is what I thought; and if an American 
goes there whom he is designated to show around, he takes him to 
the entertainments; I know that to be the case; and that expense 
is borne out of his own pocket. 

Mr. Carr. It is borne out of his own pocket, or if he is too poor 
to carry it, it is paid out of the pocket of the head of the mission. 

Mr. Conn ally. What is the present rate of pay of the fourth 
class ? 

Mr. Carr. $1,500 a year. 

Mr. Connally. Is that fixed, or is that the minimum? 

Mr. Carr. That is the maximum for the fourth-class secretary; it 
is fixed by Congress. 

Mr. Temple. It is both the maximum and the minimum. 


88 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Layton. How long has that been true? 

Mr. Carr. It was fixed by the law of 1915, if my memory serves 
me right. I would like just to invite your attention to one more fact 
there: In Washington it is a matter of general knowledge in the 
Government departments that you can not get even a high-grade 
stenographic clerk for less than $1,500; we have difficulty in keeping 
some of our first-class stenographic clerks in the State Department 
at $1,800. They have absolutely no social obligations whatsoever; 
they do not mingle in the set in which the secretaries and members 
of the legations mingle. They have none of the expenses which sec¬ 
retaries have; and yet we expect to get young men to go abroad and 
serve in our embassies as the right-hand assistants of heads of the 
embassies, and to get those young men for $1,500 a year; and we ex¬ 
pect them to go to social functions and official functions of all kinds, 
and mingle on terms of equality with the people who attend those 
functions, to dress well, to belong to clubs, because that is necessary 
to the discharge of their duties, and to do many other things which 
require expenditure of money. And the only reason that we get 
anybody to go is the fact that we have a number of young men in 
this country—it is shown here that the number is not sufficiently 
large—who are willing, from their interest in the social position 
and the other things which are attractive to them, to spend their own 
money in living abroad and in entertaining, for the personal satis¬ 
faction which they derive from the official and social relations, and 
the acquaintances which they acquire, and the service they render to 
the Government. There are a few men who go for other motives. 
Most of them are swayed, I think, very largely by those factors, 
which are of personal interest to them. Now, that" kind of a man 
can not be utilized to the same advantage, or anywhere near the same 
advantage, as the man who is paid a proper wage, who is under the 
entire jurisdiction of the Secretary of State, and who has an interest 
in holding his post in the service. 

Mr. Dickinson. What are the salaries of the other secretaries? 
Give the classes and the salary of each. 

Mr. Carr. The first class is $3,000; the second class is $2,625; the 
third class is $2,000, and the fourth class is $1,500. 

Mr. Dickinson. I notice in the bill reported last year, a copy of 
which I have before me, that the first secretary got $3,500, the second 
secretary $3,125, the third secretary got $2,500, and the fourth sec¬ 
retary $2,000. Was that changed on the floor? 

Mr. Rogers. Yes; it went back to the old scale. Any increase that 
we make is subject to a point of order, of course. 

Mr. Dickinson. Certainly. 

Mr. Rogers. And that point of order was made. 

Mr. Moores. Does not the Government run the risk all the time of 
having ill-paid secretaries of legations either in the pay of yellow 
newspapers or of foreign governments for the sake of information 
they can get ? 

Mr. Carr. Well, I suppose you might say there is a risk there, 
although I know of no case where that has been found true. 

Mr. Moores. I remember one case where a civil-service clerk, a 
stenographer attached to a legation, was in the pay of a New York 
newspaper; I never knew of a case involving a secretary; but the 
secretaries are certainly subject to that temptation. 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 89 

Mr. Carr. We are to a considerable extent, of course, protected 
against that by our system, by which we depend upon young men 
of ample means to enter the service, and therefore they are not 
swayed by those considerations, as underpaid clerks in Government 
departments who have no other means might be. 

Mr. Moores. How many of these secretaries are away from their 
post and attached to the department here in Washington? You 
have roving secretaries, have you not? 

Mr. Carr. Well, we bring some of them here to the department as 
part of our regular scheme of management. 

Mr. Moores. How many have you there now, approximately? 

Mr. Carr. I can not tell you, but I imagine we have six or eight, 
anyway, and perhaps more. 

Mr. Moores. How many traveling secretaries have you ? 

Mr. Carr. Traveling secretaries? 

Mr. Moores. Yes. 

Mr. Carr. None. They are all stationed at posts, unless they hap¬ 
pen to be on duty here at the department. And I may say here that 
the State Department would have broken down during the war if it 
had not been for the fact that we drafted a number of secretaries to 
come back here and help in the department. We had a number of 
secretaries and also a number of consular officers come back and help, 
and that was the only thing that saved the department from going to 
pieces. 

Mr. Rogers. Mr. Carr, is this one of the conditions resulting from 
the unattractive nature of the service to large groups of men, namely, 
that it is so difficult to build up the service as vacancies arise, and 
consequently it is so important not to lose the good men that you 
have that you can not exact of the good men now in the service the 
discipline that you could exact in case you had a seething mass of 
excellent material waiting to get into the service ? 

Mr. Carr. Certainly; that is absolutely true. 

Mr. Rogers. I was told the other day, for instance, of a good secre¬ 
tary who had been working hard and was tired, and he announced 
that he was going off to hunt big game and would be gone for six 
months. He could not very well be spared, but he said they could 
either have him at the end of six months or not have him at all. And, 
consequently, the department felt obliged to yield, because he abso¬ 
lutely could not be replaced. 

Mr. Carr. That is absolutely true. The department has very 
little, if any, independence at all with regard to the secretaries in the 
service. 

Mr. Rogers. Now, to get back to my original inquiry: I think the 
members of the committee, and you probably will agree, that precision 
in legislation is desirable up to a certain point, at least. Now, if you 
have authority under this language to oppoint 78 secretaries at $6,000 
and no others, or 180 secretaries at $2,500 and no others, it seems to 
me that the latitude is much greater than you need. Is there any ob¬ 
jection that you know of to simply incorporate in this bill the table 
which you have given the committee—20 secretaries, of the first class, 
at $6,0*00 a year—$120,000—or whatever the scale might be ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes; I personally see some objections to that, Mr. 
Rogers. 


90 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Houghton. That would leave you without any flexibility, I 
suppose ? 

Mr. Carr. During the war, which was our supreme test, of course, 
of running the service, if we had not had the flexibility that we have 
now I do not know what we should have done. It was only the fact 
that Congress left an enormous amount of latitude in the hands of 
the Secretary of State that enabled us to go through the war with 
both branches of the service as successfully as we did. Where it was 
necessary we could increase the number of men in a class; that was 
particularly true in the case of the Consular Service because occa- ‘ 
sionally we would need a consular officer somewhere and could not 
have sent him without much delay if we had not had so much lati¬ 
tude. If you had specified in the legislation that so many consular j 
officers had to be in particular places we could not have met the sit¬ 
uation, except after long delay, which was utterly impracticable. It I 
is a tremendous advantage to have the power to change the number I 
in those classes if it is necessary, and personally I think that you 
should leave as much latitude in the hands of the executive as pos¬ 
sible, to be checked absolutely by an accounting at the next session of 
Congress of the manner in which that authority has been exercised. 

In other words, it seems to me that it ought to be relatively im¬ 
material to Congress whether it specifies in the bill that there shall 
be so many secretaries, for example, in a certain class, or whether it 
leaves that to the judgment of the Secretary of State, on condition 
that the Secretary of State comes before this committee at the next 
session of Congress and says, “ Gentlemen, I exercised this authority 
which you gave me in this, that, or the other way. I kept so many 
secretaries in this class, that class, and the other class; ” and with 
that understanding you are likely to get almost no misuse of the 
authority. You are likely to leave a great deal of very commendable 
latitude in the hands of the Secretary. 

Mr. Kogers. That theory as applied to its logical conclusion would 
mean a three-line bill, reading something like this: “For foreign 
intercourse, 1921, $11,443,000,” would it not? 

Mr. Carr. Yes, but- 

Mr. Houghton. Well, is that not substantially what we vote on 
anyhow? [Laughter.] 

The Chairman. Mr. Carr, you are basing your reasoning on war 
conditions, are you not? 

Mr. Carr. I am basing my reasoning on war conditions, Mr. Chair¬ 
man; but I do think that we learned a very great many useful facts 
about administration during the war as affecting our department. 

The Chairman. I grant the necessity of great flexibility in times 
of war; but do you need it in times of peace ? 

Mr. Carr. At the beginning of the war, when we most needed lati- 
tude, we could not have got it, probably. Fortunately, we had an 1 
enormous amount of latitude in the foreign service in the beginning 
If we had not had that, we would have gone on the rocks in "the first 
year of the war without any doubt. 

The Chairman. Well, do you think Congress would have declined 
to help you as an emergency measure? 

Mr Carr. Possibly not. * But I am particularly emphasizing the 
loss of time that occurs between the beginning of a certain condition 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


91 


and the time when you get legislation, ordinarily, on details of this 
sort. 

Mr. Connally. May I ask you one question along that line? A 
moment ago you stated that in classifying these secretaries you had a 
system of selection, largely, instead of seniority ? 

Mr. Carr. That is my understanding; yes, sir. 

Mr. Connally. What I want to inquire is, have you any well- 
defined policy by which those selections are made, or is it purely an 
arbitrary selection? 

Mr. Carr. Well, of course, it is based on several considerations. 

Mr. Connally. That is what I was getting at. In the first place, 
there is kept a record of the service of each man, a personal record 
card ? 

Mr. Carr. A personal record card is kept, which embraces the 
opinions of the different chiefs under whom he serves, and any com¬ 
plaints that may be made against him, as well as any commenda¬ 
tions that may be made in respect to him. 

Mr. Connally. That is what I was inquiring about. 

Mr. Carr. That is the foundation of the judgment of the Secretary 
of State in making promotions. 

Mr. Connally. In other words, the immediate superior of the sec¬ 
retary comments on his services, and if he is transferred to another 
chief, that man also comments on him ? 

Mr. Carr. He also comments on him.' Every head of a mission is 
pxpected—I think it is once a year—to send in a written statement in 
regard to the efficiency of every subordinate under him. 

Mr. Connally. That is what I was getting at, to see whether you 
had a personal record system in effect. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. That is true also of the Consular Service, where 
we have the additional safeguard that there is a corps of inspectors 
who go to each place and report periodically upon the office and 
personnel. 

Mr. Moores. Mr. Carr, I think every member of this committee 
understands the arguments in favor of flexibility. But any bill that 
we present will meet opposition. A very large majority of both sides 
of the House believe that the lump-sum appropriations to the Food 
Administration, the Fuel Administration, and other branches of the 
Government service during the war were abused; and we have got 
to meet the hostility growing out of that. 

I wish you would write us a letter stating, as forcibly as you can, 
the reasons for the desirability of flexibility in the matter of secre¬ 
taries and their pay. 

Mr. Carr. In times of peace ? 

Mr. Moores. In times of peace, so that the chairman may be pro¬ 
tected on the floor of the House. We have got to meet a very bitter 
hostility to lump-sum appropriations. 

Mr. Carr. I can well understand that. There is no one more sin¬ 
cerely anxious to help in a proper solution of that sort of problem 
than I am. Several years ago the Secretary of State adopted a cer¬ 
tain form of financial report very largely for the purpose of not only 
himself keeping faith with Congress but of forcing all of his sub¬ 
ordinates to keep faith with Congress. Now, every winter we submit 
to Congress a written report setting forth most minutely the manner 
in which the appropriations which Congress has given the Secretar}^ 


92 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

of State have been spent. We take up each embassy and legation and 
each consulate and tell how much has been spent for heat and light 
and mesenger, telephone, telegraph, rent, and all that sort of thing. 
We take up all the salaries attached to each office. In other words, 
we take up every appropriation that we have and the details of how 
that appropriation has been used, and it is possible at the beginning 
of the session after the close of the fiscal year for Congress to see 
exactly what is done and usually in time to check it up against the 
appropriations for the next year, so that if there has been anything 
done that is not approved by Congress there is opportunity to require 
an explanation and to make such correction of the procedure as may 
be necessary. 

Mr. Limthicum. I was just thinking of the point Mr. Rogers and 
Mr. Moores make against this lump-sum appropriation. In the six 
years I have been a member of this committee we have appropriated 
an unexpended balance in various funds, and I do not think there are 
more than half the Members on the floor of Congress who knew what 
that unexpended balance was. I doubt if members of the committee 
knew and yet it has been going through session after session without 
any question of it. I think that if we want to ascertain these things 
and get them down to a fixed basis, if we are going to arrange this 
same question, as Mr. Rogers suggests, it seems to me the measure 
ought to be arranged because that is more questionable and we appro¬ 
priate a particular sum of money for a particular thing together with 
the unexpended balance, and nobody knows except in the report from 
the department what it is. We have been going along taking it on 
faith that the department has acted properly and economically and it 
has always done so. I think it has been too economical and parsi¬ 
monious in many of these cases. I believe if we could expend more 
money abroad and give more service to the people it would be far 
better than trying to limit the small salaries and things of that kind. I 
am very much interested in trying to give every service abroad be¬ 
cause in the Consular Service it carries itself, and this question of the 
passport bureau at Paris, I think that carries its own expense. There 
is no reason why we should not give the very best service and if we 
are going to face this as to the secretaries we ought to face that other 
question of unexpended balances and let the House know exactly 
what we are doing. 

Mr. Carr. I am very glad to hear you say what you do in regard 
to the modesty of the requests of the Department of State as a general 
proposition in reference to appropriations, because there is one thing 
that has been very evident all the way through, the Department of 
State has never been since this war began at any time quite generous 
enough in its requests to Congress for money. It has always under¬ 
estimated rather than overestimated. 

The Chairman. I agree with that, Mr. Carr, except as to that one 
matter down in Cuba. 

Mr. Carr. That is a matter of opinion* Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Lintiiicum. As to the Cubans, it seems to me Cuba stands out 
alone as far as I can observe. I was noticing in the papers the other 
day a picture of a magnificent palace for the President of Cuba, and 
if you go up here and see the Cuban embassay building, it is a splen¬ 
did structure. It seems to me that the Cubans are trying to do things 





DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


93 


on a big scale, and probably for that reason the department thinks 
we ought to be doing things on a big scale. 

The Chairman. Let us proceed with the next item. 

Mr. Carr. On page 4, lines 15, 17, 19, 21, and 24, and page 5, line 1 : 

Japanese secretary (interpreter) of embassy to Japan, $3,600: Turkish secre¬ 
tary (interpreter) of embassy to Turkey, $3,600; Chinese secretary (interpre¬ 
ter) of legation to China, $3,600; Chinese assistant secretary (interpreter) (to 
the) of legation to China, to be appointed from the corps of student interpre¬ 
ters, $2,000; Japanese assistant secretary (interpreter) to the embassy to 
Japan, to be appointed from the corps of student interpreters, $2,000; Turkish 
assistant secretary (interpreter) to the embassy to Turkey, to be appointed 
from the corps of student interpreters, $2,000. 

This appropriation last year was for secretary-interpreter. I hope 
the commitee will favorably consider the change of the title back to 
what it was. The Japanese, the Chinese, the Turkish secretary has a 
rather definite meaning in this case, but when you change the title to 
sec ret ary-interpreter you impair the prestige of the office in the eyes 
of the local people. You put it on the basis of an interpretership 
and ultimately 1 am afraid it is going to interfere very much with 
the influence of the office. I would very strongly advise that you 
change the title back to that of the Japanese, the Turkish, and the 
Chinese secretary. 

Mr. Houghton. Tn what respect are the duties of the Turkish 
secretary different from that of interpreter? 

Mr. Carr. They are different in this respect: An interpreter ordi¬ 
narily means a man whose sole duty is to interpret from the Turkish 
language, let us say, into the English, and in that way assist his chief. 
All of these positions ambrace that duty. 

Mr. Houghton. That primarily is the reason we have them, of 
course. 

Mr. Carr. On the other hand, the Turkish secretary is the main 
liaison between the embassy and the foreign office and the other min¬ 
isters. He is the man who goes to the foreign office as the repre¬ 
sentative of the ambassador and oftentimes conducts negotiations 
and intervenes for the protection of Americans. He needs to be a 
man with all the local prestige that we can give him, and the prestige 
that goes with the title means a very great deal. 

Mr. Temple. The Japanese secretary is not a Japanese nor is the 
Turkish secretary a Turk? % 

Mr. Carr. Oh, no; all of these gentlemen are American citizens. 
Practically all of them have been educated at the expense of the 
Government, beginning as student interpreters in the missions, 
learning the language, and then serving in the diplomatic missions 
or the consulates, and gradually have been advanced up to the grade 
of Japanese or Chinese or Turkish secretary of the embassy. 

Mr. Temple. Is not that title misleading to people who do not 
know the facts? 

Mr. Carr. That, I think, was the reason that led the committee 
to change the title, because it was constantly misunderstood on the 
floor of the House. But, unfortunately, it is not as happy a selec¬ 
tion for our purposes in the field as it ought to be. It would be 
much better to leave it under the old designation. 

Mr. Moores. May I ask a question as regards Persia? Why have 
we not a secretary-interpreter in Persia or secretary of legation? 


94 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Carr. I think we ought to have one but we never have asked 
for it and we have no corps of students in that country. . Congress 
appropriates, however, a small sum of $2,000, I believe it is, for the 
employment of an interpreter, and then we have had over there for 
several years one of the consuls who was trained in Turkey and who 
acquired a considerable knowledge of the Persian language and has 
been acting more or less as a Persian interpreter. 

Mr. Moores. Persian is a very definite language from Arabic, is 
it not? 

Mr. Carr. Oh, yes, Persian is quite distinct from Arabic. 

The Chairman. Mr. Carr, the Japanese secretary-interpreter and 
those that follow are not included in the classification on page 4 ? 

Mr. Carr. No. 

The Chairman. What is the reason? 

Mr. Carr. Because they are special posts governed by entirely 
different principles in regard to the incumbents from those applying 
to the other secretaries of the service. These Japanese, Turkish, and 
Chinese secretaryships are all filled by men who have been trained 
in the service. They are all filled by men trained in our own service 
who began as student interpreters and who have been advanced up 
through the grades of subordinate consular officers up to the offices 
of Japanese, Chinese, or Turkish secretary-interpreters. 

Mr. Linthicum. Speaking, on page 4, of the wording of Japanese, 
Turkish, and Chinese secretaries, why could not that be worded 
definitely so as to remove all that question of their nationality. You 
say, Japanese secretary to the embassy of Japan. Why could we 
not say secretary to the embassy of Japan? Why make that 
confusion as members of the House might think, perhaps, it would 
refer to the nationality? 

Mr. Carr. If you were using that language it seems to me it would 
rather confuse these language secretaries with the other secretaries. 

Mr. Linthicum. It really means the way it is written, the way 
some members would construe it, Japanese secretary to the embassy 
of Japan. 

Mr. Carr. There is a wording that occurs to me. at the moment 
that might make it explanatory and meet both of our suggestions. 
If you were to say, Japanese secretary who shall be an American 
citizen and acting as interpreter to the embassy of Japan, that 
would express it. 

Mr. Ackerman. Why not put it, “ who has command of the Jap¬ 
anese language,” and “ who has command of the Turkish language?” 

Mr. Carr. Exactly. 6 6 

Mr. Ackerman. State, secretary, embassy to Japan, who shall have 
command of the Japanese language. 

Mr. Linthicum. I can readily see where that word interpreter 
detracts from the dignity of the position. 

Mr. Carr. It detracts from the dignity of the position and impairs 
the man's prestige, and it is prestige we want above all things. 

Mr. Linthicum. In those countries surely ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

The Chairman. What objection would there be to just referring 
to him as assistant secretary of embassy of Japan, or special secae^ 
tary ? 

Mr. Temple. Or special secretary, and as to the reasons that make 
him special, he is the one man that must know the language. 





DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 95 

Mr. Houghton. If the title has a definite meaning abroad, why 
change it at all in these local fields? 

Mr. Carr. That is my point, that it has a very definite meaning, 
and it seems to me we impair what we had gained by the use of that 
title when we transform it into the title of secretary-interpreter. 

Mr. Ackerman. If we did that, would it not leave a loophole later 
on, to secure a man who knew the Japanese language, and later put¬ 
ting on someone as an interpreter ? 

Mr. Carr. If you have a very bad administrative secretary of State, 
it might. 

Mr. Moores. There is no use in putting American citizen in there 
because these rascally Greeks would be naturalized very quick. 

Mr. Carr. I mean that really only for the purpose of making the 
title clear to the House. 

Mr. Moores. There must be thousands of Greeks who are natural¬ 
ized now, capable of being interpreters. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Houghton. On page 5, lines 16 to 18, we have now $688,000, 
as follows: 

CLERKS AT EMBASSIES AND LEGATIONS. 

Clerks at embassies and legations: For the employment of necessary clerks 
at the embassies and legations, who, whenever hereafter appointed, shall be 
citizens of the United States, $688,000. 

Is that to be detailed at all ? 

Mr. Carr. That I shall put in fullest detail in the hearing, and 
it will be detailed fully in the Secretary’s report, which is all ready 
to come down. It is expended now for 339 clerks at the different 
embassies and legations, ranging in salaries from $800 to $4,500. 
There are three special men at $4,500. 

Mr. Temple. At salaries ranging from $800? 

Mr. Carr. Yes; to $4,500. 

Mr. Bogers. What is the rate of compensation of the major part 
of them ? 

Mr. Carr. The major part of them are mostly from $2,400 down 
to $800. Then, there are a considerable number up to $3,000, and 
only three above $3,000, but they are special cases. 

Mr. Bogers. You get a clerk in the embassy or legation receiving 
a salary of $4,000 or $4,500, when the charge d’affaires at the 
top of the heap is getting a salary of $2,600 or $3,000. 

The Chairman. That is what I had in mind. 

Mr. Carr. The reason is very simple. You can get a charge 
d’affaires because he is willing to spend his own money to help in rep¬ 
resenting the Government. You can not get the clerk at so small a 
salary, because he has not any money except his salary. 

Mr. Dickinson. Did this same condition exist prior to the war? 

Mr. Carr. Yes; not nearly to the same extent, because prices have 
gone up. 

Mr. Dickinson. Will that not be relieved to some extent by the 
passing of the war period? 

Mr. Carr. When we pass it; but I am affaid that relief may not 
come for some little time. 

Mr. Bogers. There , is one general observatipn I should like to 
make in connection with this item of $688,000, and the item in page 


96 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

8, line 4, for “ Contingent expenses, foreign missions,” and several 
other items of that nature through the bill. In the past, I think, 
the policy of this committee has been to scrutinize with especial 
care, at all events, only the increases and feel reasonably well satis¬ 
fied if the amount requested was the same as in the previous bill. 
I suspect that the attitude of Congress ahd the country is a little 
different this year. We have brought this up, the House will say, 
to a war-time scale of very large proportions, inflated to a maximum 
to meet war conditions. In the case of the House and, perhaps, in 
the case of the country, we will be expected to scale this down to 
proportions which it had perhaps five years ago, when the total bill 
was, perhaps, a third of what it is to-day. It seems to me, therefore, 
that to meet that the chairman will require some general statement 
from the department as to why the work of the State Department 
in its foreign relationship is going to continue unreduced, certainly 
for the ensuing fiscal year. 

Mr. Carr. I think that is a perfectly just demand to make upon 
the Secretary of State. I can tell you just in a moment about this 
$688,000. I have been talking about the business of our embassies 
and legations in certain of these countries; London and Paris have 
been two places we have especially spoken of, and I might say that 
the Paris embassy is swamped to-day with the remnants of the 
peace conference. The embassy at London has been overburdened 
all during the war, and it has been continuing for a very considerable 
length of time to be a sort of center of all these international things, 
and it imposes upon the embassy an enormous amount of work. 
Down in Pome we have had a lot of increased work. Denmark and 
Sweden have been up to now and all during the war special points 
of observation for the allied countries. They require a large staff of 
people to look after the passport work and people who have informa¬ 
tion that we need. We have had to increase the staff of those offices 
very greatly. For instance, we are spending out of this $688,000 the 
sum of $395,000 for clerks in Denmark, France, Germany, Great 
Britain, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden, and Switzerland. The reason 
for it is very obvious, because these countries are immediately sur¬ 
rounding the Central Empire countries, and there have been many 
persons calling upon our missions in the surrounding neutral coun¬ 
tries for services. How long that will continue I am unable to say. 
but I should naturally think there would be a very considerable 
reduction now that the war is over. 

Mr. Houghton. Then we must make a difference between what 
might be called ordinary and extraordinary expenses. 

Mr. Carr. I think what I am going to say will show that. Pun¬ 
ning over the list of embassies and legations, we have in Argentina 
3 people paid out of this appropriation, Belgium 6, another place 3, 
another 8, another 5, another 4, another 1, and so on, but when we get 
to Denmark we find that there are 11 people. In Great Britain there 
are 25; Italy, 21; Sweden, 12; Switzerland, 15; France, 75. That 
tells the story. 

Mr. Rogers. How many to Germany, which you cited originally? 

Mr. Carr. Twenty-two in Germany at the present time, but that 
is due to the fact that since the armistice, of course, we have had a 
mission, an unofficial mission, in Berlin, charged with various func¬ 
tions, including the gathering of information. 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


97 


Mr. Houghton. You spoke of the Diplomatic and Consular Service 
as a whole in South America. Are they on a peace basis or war 
basis ? 

Mr. Carr. Practically on a peace basis. 

Mr. Houghton. Will it compare favorably with three or four 
years ago ? 

Mr. Carr. Except in the matter of secretaries; yes, I think so. 

Mr. Houghton. There is an increase, however? 

Mr. Carr. There is some increase; yes. As a matter of fact, it is 
going to be utterly impossible ever to get our consuls and our missions 
back to the small stall' of the 1914 days. 

Mr. Houghton. I should assume that. But I was trying to get 
a line so that we could prove that extraordinary expenses were 
occurring. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Temple. It seems to me the normal is going to be larger than 
ever in South America; Germany, England, and France having been 
disturbed more than we were by the war, and that the increase of 
business due to that requires an increase in consular work. 

Mr. Houghton. There is no question about that. It seems to me 
if we go to the House with a lump increase it is going to be hard to 
accomplish anything, but if we can show that through a large part 
of the world there is nothing but a normal growth to consider, while 
elsewhere we are under extraordinary conditions, it will be easier. 

Mr. Linthicum. That brings up -another element. Have you 
something to say on the other side of the ledger as to the increase in 
receipts in the Consular and Diplomatic Service? 

Mr. Carr. Unfortunately we have not increased receipts for this 
reason, that the receipts of the Consular Service are based upon the 
certification of invoices of merchandise imported into the United 
States and, of course, during the war our imports of articles on which 
| the great majority of invoice fees was collected have been largely 
! cut off. We have been in the main an export Nation during the war 
and, consequently, there have not been collected as large a number 
of fees in the Consular Service as were collected in 1914. For the 
year ending June 30, 1914, w T e had over $2,000,000 receipts from the 
Consular Service in the way of fees; in 1919 it was $1,364,000. So 
there was $700,000 less than we had in 1914. That is due entirely to 
the fact that we have not been importing. 

Mr. Temple. The suggestion is made that there be an analysis of 
the situation showing the reason for these things, because it will 
unquestionably help us on the floor of the House. 

Mr. Carr. I would like to do everything I can to help the commit¬ 
tee in that respect. 

Mr. Houghton. Is there any way you can couple up the expansion 
of the Diplomatic Service with the enormous increase of work during 
the past three years ? That would make it rather normal. 

Mr. Carr. Yes; I can do a great deal of that with the Diplomatic 
Service and I can particularly do it with the Consular Service. You 
are going to meet this same situation with the consular contingent 
expenses. The trouble there is going to be that we probably have not 
asked you for enough money instead of too much, for this particular 
reason, that in proportion to the work of the Consular Service a? 

161447—20-7 



98 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

compared with that of the Diplomatic Service, the Consular Service 
did not have at any time during the war as large a fund at its dis¬ 
posal as the Diplomatic Service had. It was less provided for. 
With reference to the Consular Service there is this great im¬ 
petus that is being given to our export trade from which there i 
are no fees. None of that comes back to the Government in any 
way. The return from export trade is a return which has gone to 
the individual, not to the Government. It is only in reference to j 
the import trade that there has been a direct return from the Con¬ 
sular Service to the Government. We have not been importing as I 
much as we did before the war. We probably will not import for j 
some time as much as we did before the war in so far as concerns ; 
articles from the invoices of which consular fees are derived. 1 
Meanwhile, our work is going to be greater so far as our export trade 
is concerned, and in addition to that we have this enormous new re- 
sponsibiliity for American owned and operated ships Avhich will 
bring an almost incredible amount of work on the consuls, assisting 
distressed seamen, handling of vessels, oftentimes financing vessels, 
and so on. Then, we have in addition to that this enormous task of 
controlling aliens coming into this country. There is an appropria¬ 
tion of $450,000 for the remainder of this ^fiscal year for that pur¬ 
pose. There will unquestionably be a very large amount of work to 
be done in keeping undesirable aliens out of the country. As a 
matter of fact, I am using my clerk hire and contingent fund now, 
and have been since July 1, carrying on the work which this $450,- 
000 is to cover from now on. How much that outlay is going to 
amount to, I^gnot know. 

Mr. Hoi|(jffl^x. Is it not true that the first thing we all seek to 
realize is this tremendous demand for economy? You go home and : 
hear nothing else. If now we come in with a bill that makes a sub- j 
stantial increase over anything incurred during the war what will ; 
happen? Foreign trade'has increased enormously, the requirements | 
of foreign service have increased enormously, and we have had to j 
build a larger organization. Everybody knows that. But we have ! 
got to go into detail to justify the increase. 

Mr. Temple. If it is not a paying business, if the Diplomatic Serv¬ 
ice requires larger expenditures, if it is necessary and inevitable busi¬ 
ness from the complications of the war or our management of foreign I 
affairs and requires additional expenditures, that is reasonable. 

Mr. Houghton. That is true, but there are a great number of men 
downstairs and throughout the country who say, “ Let us get America 
out of this thing. Why should we be spending all this money doing 
this, that, and the other thing, all over the world. Let us get back.’ 
We find that feeling almost everywhere. 

The Chairman. That is true as a general proposition. 

Mr. Houghton. If we can show in some large way that this ex¬ 
penditure is not committing us to perpetual expenditures of this 
sort, that it is simply, as you say, a clearing up, that in itself consti¬ 
tutes a rational explanation of why it is necessary to expend this 
money now. 

The Chairman. You probably misunderstood me. I did not dis¬ 
agree with that proposition. I feel that we should have that state¬ 
ment. 





DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 99 

Mr. Rogers. There is one other point, is there not, Mr. Carr, that 
is, the especial application of this item, the contingent expense item, 
and also to the corresponding items for appropriations for the con¬ 
sular service, namely, that these several expenditures in the last two 
or three years have not included any expenditures to speak of in 
Germany, Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria, Turkey, and Russia. 

Mr. Carr. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Rogers. Now, as far as the first four of them together are 
concerned, and perhaps as far as the fifth is concerned also, during 
the fiscal year for which we are appropriating, we shall have both 
embassies and legations on the one side, and consulates on the other, 
out of which you have paid very considerable expenses from this 
fund ? 

Mr. Carr. Certainly. We have no consulates in Germany, and 
have not had any there during the past year. There are no con¬ 
sulates in Austria. All are going to be established, and on a larger 
scale than during the prewar days, because of the greater number of 
duties that will have to be performed. 

Mr. Linthicum. Are you doing anything in Russia at all? 

Mr. Carr. No; there are no offices in Russia, with the exception of 
those in Vladivostok and Irkutsk, and several traveling officers in 
Siberia. We have had young men in Siberia ever since the revolu¬ 
tion in Russia, to inform us of what was going on. It was necessary 
that the Secretary of State should know what Kolchak and Semenoif 
and others w 7 ere doing; what they represented; how great their fol¬ 
lowing was; their attitude toward the United States, and many 
other facts upon which the policy of this Government could be deter¬ 
mined. These men have traveled back and forth over the Trans- 
Siberian Railroad, undergoing severe hardshps; suffering discom¬ 
forts of all kinds, in order that the United States could be adequately 
informed and American interests be protected. As you already know, 
one of these officers who was dispatched to Turkestan in 1918, to keep 
the Government informed of the political and military situation 
there, and to endeavor to the best of his ability to obstruct the Ger¬ 
mans in their efforts to obtain cotton and other necessary supplies 
from that region, was arrested and kept a prisoner by the Bolsheviki 
for 5 or 6 months, being for the most of the time in constant 
danger of execution. In southern Russia we have had a consul at 
Tiflis, and are now sending a consul general with a large staff to 
Odessa. 

The indications are that trade will soon be resume^ with Russia, 
and it may be necessary to return consuls to that countrv. In that 
case we shall no longer be able to carry on the w 7 ork with consuls 
at Petrograd, Moscow, and Odessa, but our trade as well as the 
necessity of keeping v^ell informed of the development in all parts 
of that country will make it necessary that we station officers at 
Novorossiisk or Rostof, Kief, Kharkof ’ Baku, Ekaterinburg, Omsk, 
Irkutsk, Samara, and numerous other places. This condition is also 
true of Turkey, Bulgaria, Roumania. and other places in the eastern 
part of Europe. There are several consuls in Turkey, one in Rou- 
mania, and one in Bulgaria at present, but once the United States 
enters into formal relations with those countries, it will no longer 
be able to extend proper protection to its own interests and those of 


100 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

American citizens through the kind of diplomatic and consular 
organization which it possessed in 1914. There will have to be more 
offices, and those offices will have to be better staffed, and all of the 
expenses of operating the various offices will of necessity be much 
greater than in 1914. Therefore, instead of estimating the needs 
in those countries on the basis of prewar conditions, due allowance 
must be made for the radical changes that have taken place in the 
basic conditions under which the two branches of the foreign service 
must be carried on. 

The Chairman. You have had this appropriation for this item 
in 1918, 1914, and 1915? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. In 1914, it was $75,000; in 1915. it was $100,000; 
in 1916, it was $100,000. 

The Chairman. Where was this? 

Mr. Carr. In this particular item. But in 1918 it ran up to 
$488,000, and in 1919, to $688,000. 

Mr. Houghton. That is your point right there. The other depart- 
ments can decrease expenditures but apparently this department can 
not at this time. 

Mr. Carr. That is very true; it can not. There are certain things 
that you will doubtless find can be properly reduced. There are cer¬ 
tain things, on the other hand, which you can not reduce and dis¬ 
continue without costing ultimately a great deal more than you 
would spend by appropriating the total requested. 

Mr. Houghton. The trouble I am afraid of, without professing 
to be an expert, is that unless we show a sound basis at the outset, with 
unexpended balances lying over, you may run into an arbitrary cut. 
That is the thing to be afraid of. 

Mr. Rogers. What percentage, very roughly speaking, of the j 
necessary increase of your total foreign-intercourse budget would 
have been attributed in 1914 and 1915 to the nonintercourse countries 
which I enumerated a moment ago—Germany, Austria-Hungary, ! 
Bulgaria, Turkey, and Russia? 

Mr. Carr. I can not say, but I could figure it out for you. 

Mr. Rogers. I think it might be of interest to guess whether it 
was 20 per cent or 80 per cent, because right there you would account 
for that much of an increase over last year. In respect to Russia and 
Germany, our service has been and still is withdrawn from tJiose 
countries, but with respect to Austria, Turkey, Bulgaria, and Rou- 
mania we are expending practically as much as we did before the 
war, having at*present a commissioner in Vienna, a consul and a mis¬ 
sion in Turkey, a mission in Poland, a high commissioner and a con¬ 
sul general in Constantinople, consuls in Prague and two or three 
places in Russia, and consuls at various places in the Balkans. 

While technically our officers have been withdiawn up until com¬ 
paratively recently from these countries, actually the expense has not 
been lessened, but rather increased. A large amount of business, 
such as ascertaining what was going on in these countries in order 
that the executive branch of the Government might know what 
policy should be adopted, has required a doubling or trebling of 
forces around the countries mentioned, at considerably greater ex¬ 
pense than would have been the case had the officers resumed their 
old posts in the countries themselves. Prices have been increased, 
lines of communication have been destroyed, transportation has been 





DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


101 


interrupted, so as to greatly increase the expenditure of the Govern¬ 
ment, while on the other hand, owing to the interruption of exports 
from those countries to the United States, the income from consular 
fees has been greatly reduced. 

Mr. Houghton. Might I make a suggestion, Mr. Chairman? 
Would it be possible, instead of taking the bill as a detailed mass of 
figures, to have Mr. Carr, or somebody, give us in a large way, in 
four or five or six groups, the reason why these large sums are re¬ 
quired not so much here and here, but in general terms ? 

The Chairman. How about that, Mr. Carr? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Houghton. What I am trying to get is a picture of the situa¬ 
tion. 

Mr. Carr. That falls very definitely into two or three groups. In 
the first place, you have your foreign intercourse proper. In the 
next place, you have the Diplomatic Service. In the next place 
vou have the Consular Service. They fall definitely into several 
groups in which you can draw pretty well a line between these 
peace-time expenditures and war-time expenditures and see why war¬ 
time expenditures must continue. 

Mr. Houghton. That is exactly what I am trying to get. 

Mr. Carr. Why you can not just discontinue them now is because 
there are certain things in which the interests of America must be 
carried on. That is true of this diplomatic appropriation here, in 
this particular item of which we were speaking. As I figure the 
expenditures, there are nearly $400,000 of that $688,000 being spent 
at a small group of offices loaded with war-time expenditures that can 
not just yet be discontinued. We must not reduce the Copenhagen 
office until we have opened up with the Central Powers and reestab¬ 
lished our own offices there, because if we do then we will not know 
what is going on in the Central Powers. 

The Chairman. The reasons are good. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

The Chairman. Will you put that in writing and furnish the best 
argument you can? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

The Chairman. If there is no objection, we will adjourn until 10 
o’clock to-morrow morning. 

(Thereupon, at 12.15 o’clock p. m., the committee adjourned, to 
meet again at 10 o’clock Saturday, January 10, 1920.) 


102 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Committee on Foreign Affairs, 

House of Representatives, 
Saturday, January 10, 19W. 

The committee met at 10 o’clock a. m., Hon. Stephen G. Porter 
(chairman) presiding. 

The Chairman. Mr. Carr, you may proceed with the next item. 

STATEMENT 0E MR. WILBUR J. CARR, DIRECTOR OF THE CON¬ 
SULAR SERVICE, AND MR. TRACY LAY, AMERICAN CONSUL. 

SALARIES, INTERPRETERS TO EMBASSIES AND LEGATIONS. 

Mr. Carr. Mr. Chairman, on page 6 there are a few bracketed 
words where the language of this bill disagrees with the language 
of the appropriation for the current year. I would like the com¬ 
mittee to accept the italicized phraseology in preference to that in 
the brackets. 

On page 7 lines 16, 17, 18, and 19 were, for some reason, omitted 
from the estimates, and I think it ought to go into the bill and that 
the committee should disregard the brackets. In lines 1 and 14 
the same observation applies as in respect to the bracketed language 
on page 6. 

Mr. Newton. In reference to the language in lines 16, 17, 18, and 
19, on page 7, do you propose explaining that later? 

Mr. Carr. You mean in regard to the withdrawal of the brackets 9 

Mr. Newton. Are you going into the reasons for that? 

Mr. Carr. I can give you those reasons now. That provision was 
put in the Diplomatic and Consular appropriation bill some years 
ago as a precautionary measure to prevent the possibility of any¬ 
one drawing the salary of an interpreter or a student interpreter 
being allowed any part of the salary appropriated for the secretary 
of legation or of any other officer. As a matter of fact, the comp¬ 
troller would not have allowed that. 

Mr. Newton. What was the reason for leaving it there? 

Mr. Carr. I think that, since Congress has carried that provision 
in the bill as a safeguard, Congress would perhaps prefer to have it 
in the bill, and there is no reason why it should not be. 

CONTINGENT EXPENSES, FOREIGN MISSIONS. 

On page 8, lines 4 to 22, there is an item for contingent expenses 
for foreign missions. This is another of the lump-sum appropria¬ 
tions, the items of expenditure of which and the estimated items of 
which I shall put in the record in the fullest manner possible. I 
may say further that the expenditures for the year ending June 
30, 1919, will be included in the minutest detail in the Secretary’s 
report, which will be sent to the Congress next week, I think. There¬ 
fore the entire expenditure of this sum is open to the fullest inspec¬ 
tion and consideration by Congress. 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


103 


Detailed statement of expenditures made by missions abroad for contingent 
expenses from appropriation, “ Contingent expenses foreign missions,” fiscal 
year 1919. 

Amount. 

Messenger, janitor, etc_ $192,140. 24 

Gratuities--- l, 094. 86 

Cab, carriage, and boat hire_ 10, 476. 48 

Lighting service---- 16,141. 37 

Printing and binding_ 7 , 372 .15 

Postage- 9 , 620. 46 

Telegrams- 705, 513. 81 

Telephones- 8, 759. 66 

Duty and freight on furniture, etc_ 2, 864. 37 

Traveling expenses_ 1, 291. 90 

Loss by exchange_ 127, 360. 72 

Stationery supplies_ 34, 291. 34 

Newspapers- 8, 898. 99 

Fuel and illuminants_ 27, 303. 83 

Supplies for cleaning and toilet_ 5, 327. 87 

Water and ice_ 2, 676.14 

Uniforms_ 2, 729. 44 

Miscellaneous_‘_ 57, 619. 62 

Rent of office__ 83, 916. 70 

Repairs to buildings_ 13,090. 77 

Repairs to furniture and fixtures_r_•._ 7, 801. 92 

Furniture and fixtures_ 16, 760. 72 

Books_ 2, 045. 84 


Total expenditure_ 1, 345. 099. 20 

CONTINGENT EXPENSES, FOREIGN MISSIONS. 

The following is the estimated rate of present expenditures under the appro¬ 
priation for the fiscal year 1919-20: 

Amount. 

Stationery, etc_ $41. 700 

Printing_ 27, 000 

Rent_ 83, 900 

Newspapers, books, etc_ 11, 700 

Postage_ 10, 800 

Telegrams_ 850, 000 

Furniture_ 20, 500 

Typewriters_ 5, 500 

Transportation, freight, cab hire, etc_ 15, 500 

Telephone_ 8, 750 

Lighting, fuel, etc_ 43, 450 

Miscellaneous office equipment- 4, 500 

Repairs to buildings and furniture- 20, 800 

Loss by exchange- 120, 000 

Miscellaneous_ 50, 000 


Total_1,314,000 

The purpose of this appropriation, as it appears from the language 
of it, is to provide for the ordinary running expenses of the Diplo¬ 
matic Service. That is, for rent, for telegraphing, for postage, 
stationery, furniture, heating, lighting, office equipment, and for loss 
by exchange, which has been considerable. 

* Out of this whole amount there are two conspicuous items, one 
for telegrams and the other for loss by exchange. Those are only 
two items, but they are large ones. That spent out of this fund for 
telegrams for last year amounted to $705,000. 












































104 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


When these estimates were submitted, the estimate for next year 
was a possible $850,000 for telegrams. With reference to that item 
I may say that it has been found impossible since the war began 
to do the current diplomatic work through the mails. Practically 
everything has had to be done by telegraph. Things happen so rap¬ 
idly that if you should undertake to do that work by mail and give 
the instructions to ambassadors and ministers by mail, you would 
never accomplish anything. It is quite impossible. So we have not 
only had to send our instructions by telegraph, but we have had to 
get, sj^stematically and in very large volume, information from all 
of the countries of the world which in any large way figured in the 
world’s affairs. 

During the war, of course, we had reports constantly coming in 
from all of the allied countries as to what was going on there, as 
to what the position of those governments in regard to various ques¬ 
tions was, and then we had from various other neutral countries 
telegraphic correspondence, telegraphic dispatches as to what was 
going on there. 

During the peace conference, of course, we had a very large tele¬ 
graphic bill, not necessarily all between the department and the 
peace conference; that was probably the smallest amount of it. But 
the peace conference had to keep in touch with all the diplomatic 
officials all over the world in order to have first-hand information. 

Mr. Newton. Would that expense come out of an appropriation 
of the Department of State, or from the contingent fund at the dis¬ 
posal of the peace conference ? 

Mr. Carr. Of course, the telegraphing done by the peace con¬ 
ference came naturally out of the peace-conference fund. But the 
expense of sending telegrams to the peace conference came out of the 
contingent fund for foreign missions—that is, out of this fund. 

Now that the peace conference is over and the affairs of the world 
are becoming somewhat adjusted, it is a little difficult to say just 
how much telegraphing is going to be necessary. I am Trank to say 
I do not know, and I do not know of anyone who does. I do not 
believe we are going to need all of the $850,000 which is estimated, 
but what part of it will be needed I can not say. 

The Chairman. I can not see how you will need that large sum. 

Mr. Carr. I think the probability is we can scale that down. 

Mr. Rogers. I notice in this analysis of past appropriation acts 
that as late as 1917 you received less than $400,000 for this purpose. 

Mr. Carr. That is true. 

Mr. Rogers. For this whole item? 

Mr. Carr. That is true. 

Mr. Rogers. In other words, although about three years of Euro¬ 
pean war had passed, involving the meeting of many expenses, you 
were able to get on without hardship, and with mail conditions 
extremely bad, with a total sum only one-third of that which is here 
asked for. It does seem to me that this is a case where Congress 
can properly economize a little bit. 

Mr. Houghton. What is the one-third ? 

Mr. Carr. That is the difference between $400,000 and $1,300,000. 

Mr. Houghton. That covers all the corresponding items in the 
act of 1917? 6 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 105 

The Chairman. But the telegrams represent approximately one- 
half of the expense. 

Mr. Carr. A little more than half. 

Mr. Houghton. Has any elfort been made to go at this matter 
with the idea of saving money; in view of the bulk of the work the 
| department does, do you get a special rate from the cable companies ? 

Mr* Carr. \es; we get a special rate from the cable companies 
I which is considerably less than the commercial rate. Then, we use 
1 codes almost entirely, and those codes save approximately, I should 
j say, as much as 80 per cent of the original cost of the telegrams. 

e have cut the cost of telegraphing as low as we know how to cut it. 

Mr. Houghton. That has been studied and worked over? 

Mr. Carr. That has been studied and worked over. I think that 
we get as good a rate as it is possible to get, and I think we get as 
economical transmission as is possible to get through the use of code. 
That has been studied a great deal and new codes have been devised 
from time to time, and I do not think a great deal of improvement 
can be effected there. 

Mr. Houghton. Have the rates gone up in the last two or three 
years? 

Mr. Carr. I do not know about that. Of course, they have on the 
land lines, but I do not know about the cable rates. I rather think 
they have not. 

Mr. Ackerman. They have gone down, have they not; have the} 7 
not made lower rates to foreign countries by means of wireless com¬ 
munications, and so forth? . 

Mr. Houghton. Does it seem to you that with the peace confer¬ 
ence out of the way there would be as much telegraphing as hereto¬ 
fore? 

Mr. Carr. No; I do not think there will be nearly so much; but 
how much there will be it is quite impossible for me to even predict. 

Mr. Newton. I know the tendency is, after there has been a pro¬ 
lific use of telegrams when they have been needed, to continue to use 
them when the urgent occasion for sending them has ceased—to con¬ 
tinue sending them when it is not really necessary. What steps 
are being taken by the department to do away with any such natural 
tendency on the part of officials? 

Mr. Carr. The department has been gradually seeking to reduce 
expenses by cutting out this, that, and the other thing started during 
| the war. The telegraphic bill in July was running $80,000 a month. 

! In October it was down to $77,000, and in December it is estimated 
to be about $55,000. There will be a considerable reduction if that 
rate of reduction should continue. I think it will be possible to 
make further reductions. 

Mr. Newton. I was wondering if that was caused by a reduction 
in the general business done by the consulates and the foreign offices, 
or whether it merely represented the transferring of busines pre¬ 
viously done bv telegraph to the mails ? 

Mr. Carr. It represents both. A great deal that was necessary 
during the war and until after the peace conference adjourned was 
done away with. It was no longer necessary. A certain amount of 
Government telegraphing between the missions and the peace confer¬ 
ence and repeating the same matter between the missions and the 




106 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Department of State was also done away with, the one operation 
sufficing. 

Then, on the other,hand, a certain amount of business is gradually 
being turned back as rapidly as possible into the mail channel. 

I was talking about that with the Secretary yesterday and he 
agreed with me that we might make still further reductions in tele¬ 
graphing and throw the business back into the mail channels, but 
we can not nearly get back to normal for some time to come and 
probably never to the 1914 basis. 

The Chairman. Who made this estimate of $850,000 for telegraph¬ 
ing expenses? 

Mr. Carr. It was made on the basis of last year’s expenditures, and 
was made up largely by myself. 

Mr. Houghton. You estimate an increase over last year of about 
15 per cent, from $705,000 to $850,000. 

Mr. Carr. Yes; and the reason for that was this. At the time the 
estimate was made we did not have the figures for last year’s expendi¬ 
tures on the one hand, and were expending at the rate of even a 
greater sum for telegraphing. 

Mr. Rogers. I suppose it is for some very remote and very histori¬ 
cal reason that this paragraph begins with the expression, “ To enable 
the President to provide, at the public expense, all stationary, blanks, 
records, and other books, seals, presses, flags, ensigns, as he shall 
think necessary for the several embassies and legations,” etc. 

Mr. Carr. That follows a section of the Revised Statutes which 
was enacted many years ago, which authorizes the President to pro¬ 
vide at the public expense stationary, blanks, etc., for the foreign 
service. It was without appropriation. 

Then this same language was used when we came to make a spe¬ 
cific appropriation for that purpose, and that has stood ever since. 

Mr. Houghton. I wanted to ask whether there is any control in 
the department over the sending of cablegrams and telegrams. Do 
they have to pass through any one set of hands, or are there a great 
number of people, any one of whom can send a cablegram or a tele¬ 
gram ? 

Mr. Carr. They all, of course, pass over the desk of one of the 
executive officers, that is to say, the Secretary, the Assistant Secre¬ 
taries, or over my own desk. 

Mr. Houghton. A clerk down there has no right to send a cable¬ 
gram or a telegram? 

Mr. Carr. No. 

Mr. Houghton. If I want to find out about something I do not go 
to a clerk and have him send a cablegram or telegram; the clerks 
are not authorized to do that? 

Mr. Carr. No; it must go over the desk of the Secretary, or one of 
the three Assistant Secretaries, the undersecretary, or my own deck. 

Mr. Houghton. That would be taken care of when the telegrams 
came in, not as a mere formal checking, but the question will be 
asked whether that information ought to be asked for by cable instead 
of using the mails? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. Not onlv whether it ought to be asked for by 
cable, but whether, if the cable is to be sent, the message is too long. 
For instance, I have many times used a blue pencil on a telegram and 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 107 

later found that I had in a few minutes saved $25 or $50 by reducing 
the number of words. 

Mr. Houghton. There is a systematic, businesslike effort made to 
control that and to minimize the amount of cabling? 

Mr. Carr. Oh, yes. So far as we have machinery with which to 
do it, we do that. If we had adequate personnel and could devise 
a means of passing the telegrams through the hands of somebody 
who had time enough to revise them we could possibly save a con¬ 
siderable amount. But I think the most effective mode of sav¬ 
ing expense on telegraphing is by discontinuing the telegraphing 
made necessary during the war and resuming the transaction of busi¬ 
ness through the mail, and that will be done as rapidly as the mail 
facilities answer the purpose. 

Mr. Rogers. From time to time during the past year I have had 
letters from the peace commission at Paris that came to me, as indi¬ 
cated on the envelope, by courier. Were those paid out of the com¬ 
mission fund or this fund? 

Mr. Carr. The couriers were paid, up until about the time the com¬ 
mission adjourned, from the commission fund—from the allotment 
made to the commission. There are some couriers now being paid 
out of this fund since two or three months ago, because it is impos¬ 
sible to send official correspondence to Europe at the present time— 
to certain parts of Europe, at least—through the mails. It does not 
reach its destination or not without unauthorized persons having 
had access to it. 

Mr. Rogers. Do those couriers come under the head of dispatch 
agents? 

Mr. Carr. No; they are not mentioned in the language of this 
section. 

Mr. Rogers. But they are paid from this fund ? 

Mr. Carr. They are paid from this fund. 

Mr. Rogers. What heading does that come under? 

Mr. Carr. It comes under the head of “Traveling and miscel¬ 
laneous expenses.” 

Mr. Ackerman. Do you keep a regular force of couriers at this 
moment going back and forth across the Atlantic? 

Mr. Carr. Not across the Atlantic, but in Europe. I think we 
have none coming across the Atlantic, if I remember correctly, but 
we have them in Europe, going from a central point, namely, Paris, 
to certain places, like Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Vienna and Buda¬ 
pest, and even to Constantinople. 

Mr. Ackerman. Do you know how many there are? 

Mr. Carr. I think there are some 5 or 10. 

Mr. Ackerman. Are they American citizens? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Ackerman. How much are they paid—do you know ? 

Mr. Carr. They are marines, and they are getting the marine’s 
pay, and we pay their expenses. 

Mr. Ackerman. Will you be good enough to tell me about what it 
costs for “ compensation of kavasses, guards, dragomans, and por¬ 
ters” in the aggregate? 

Mr. Carr. Nothing was expended for that purpose during the past 
fiscal year. 



108 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Ackerman. I would like to know that very much. 

Mr. Houghton. What was the amount for this purpose a year 
ago ? 

Mr. Carr. A year ago it was $1,310,000, the same amount as is 
asked for in this item now. 

Mr. Houghton. Did you have any unexpended balance? 

Mr. Carr. For the last fiscal year we seemed to have a deficiency. 
Our total expenditure is $1,340,000. 

Mr. Houghton. Going back to page 5, in the item for clerks at 
embassies and legations, for which you are now asking $688,000, 
did you have an unexpended balance in that item last year ? 

Mr. Carr. I think we will not have a deficiency in the $688,000, 
but I can not say as to the item of contingent expenses. 

Mr. Houghton. I am looking for any unexpended balances you 
may have. 

Mr. Carr. There was spent, apparently, $649,802.60; so there is 
evidently a very small unexpended balance. But I might explain 
any small unexpended balance in a clerk-hire appropriation in this 
way, that there always is normally a small unexpended balance, 
because, owing to the allowances which they get on a basis of the 
annual salary, there will be weeks or perhaps months in which that 
salary will not be used by reason of somebody resigning and the 
time elapsing between the resignation and the filling of the place 
again. So there is always a certain amount of unexpended balance 
which can not be taken up and is not utilized. 

Mr. Houghton. I would like to know what unexpended balances 
you may have in any of these items. 

Mr. Carr. I will be glad to furnish that information. 

The Chairman. What is the amount of loss on exchange? 

Mr. Carr. I think we expended last year $127,360. 

Mr. Houghton. That was out of what amount of total appro¬ 
priation ? 

Mr. Carr. That was out of our whole diplomatic and consular 
appropriation, which is considerably over $2,000,000. 

In some of the countries, of course, the loss by exchange has been 
very great. For instance, in China, the loss by exchange has been 
enormous, and in Persia it has been enormous, owing to the deprecia¬ 
tion of the American gold dollar in those countries, or rather to the 
rise of the value of local currency. For instance, in China, the silver 
monetary unit has gone from about 43 before the war until it is 
now over a dollar. 

In September, 1914, the value of the Mexican dollar in United 
States currency was 43, and in September, 1919, it was 87 and a 
fraction. A bank buying a draft drawn by the consul general in 
1914 gave a rate of 42, while in September, 1919, the bank gave a 
rate of $1.03. That explains it, so far as China is concerned. 

A very similar situation existed in Turkey, and for a time a very 
similar situation existed in Italy, and I believe at the present time, 
to a moderate extent, the same situation exists in Brazil and some 
other places. 

Mr. Newton. What is the cause of this, trade conditions? 

Mr. Carr. The United States, which had formerly had a favor¬ 
able trade balance with China, has been buying more from China 
than it has sold to her, hence it constantly owed China money, which 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 109 

indebtedness had to be settled in silver. Meanwhile England had to 
buy enormous quantities of silver for use in India. Japan also 
bought large quantities of silver for coinage purposes. The pro¬ 
duction of silver did not keep pace with the demand and hence the 
price, as measured in gold, has risen. It required twice as much 
gold to buy a Chinese silver dollar in 1919 as it did in 1914, thus a 
consular officer selling a draft on the United States would get about 
one-half as much gold for it as^ie received for it in 1914. 

Mr. Newton. Is that going to continue or not? 

Mr. Carr. Nobody knows. There is a shortage of silver, the de¬ 
mand has not decreased, and I do not think anybody can tell what 
is going to happen in Europe in regard to exchange conditions there. 

Sir. Newton. So you see no real relief warranting a reduction in 
an estimate of that kind? 

Mr. Carr. No ; I do not. Before the war business men would buy 
a cargo of tea at Hongkong and pay $50,000 for it. To-day to get 
a like cargo of tea, making no allowance whatsoever for increased 
cost of producing it, they pay $100,000, or thereabouts. The consul 
in China has a salary which at the old rate had possessed a certain 
purchasing value, and he has to have that salary increased now by 100 
per cent in order to purchase the same amount of food and pay the 
same rent as he did in 1914. 

Mr. Houghton. That would not be included in this item, would it ? 

Mr. Carr. That particular thing would not be included, but it 
illustrates the point. 

Mr. Newton. How would our rate of exchange be affected sq 
materially by the Chinese situation, when the value of the Mexican 
dollar has merely come up to the value of our gold dollar ? 

Mr. Houghton. Exchange is based, after all, on orders in and 
orders out. That is the fundamental thing there. On top of that 
came the silver dollar, of which you speak, and it is those two things 
together that make the difference. If we have to pay a large sum 
of money to China and we have to pay a little difference in exchange, 
incidentally, the pressure goes against us. But if you reverse the 
pressure, tihina has to pay us a great deal and we pay China very 
little. It is those two elements that make up the situation in so far 
as the difference in exchange is concerned. 

I was wondering whether any effort had been made to ship any 
actual silver. Was there enough of an item in the Chinese exchange 
to make any reason for the Government shipping $50,000 or $100,000 
actual Mexican dollars out there? 

Mr. Carr. They did not do it. 

Mr. Houghton. I suppose it was not large enough to pay for the 
risk. 

Mr. Carr. I do not think that is large enough. I tried to interest 
the Treasury Department in the shipment of gold, and for a time we 
did overcome a certain amount of our exchange difficulty in some 
countries by an occasional shipment of gold to the head of the 
mission; but then we reached the point where the Treasury Depart¬ 
ment could not let us do that, and we had to stop. 

Mr. Houghton. You referred to it here as the most striking case. 
There would have been a world smash if the English had not bought 
the silver to send out there. 





110 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Carr. That is quite true. 

The Chairman. Before you leave that item, outside of the sug¬ 
gested reduction in the amount to be appropriated for telegrams, 
can you suggest any other place where peace conditions will justify 
a reduction of the estimate? 

Mr. Carr. I think not. In fact, I am quite sure not. The matter 
of rent is a continuing thing. Stationery is only $41,000, anyway. 

Mr. Rogers. What is the amount of the rent item ? 

Mr. Carr. You mean the rent of offices? 

Mr. Rogers. What is the amount? 

Mr. Carr. The amount is $83,900. 

Mr. Rogers. It seems that that would not go very far. Is that 
the total amount for the service? 

Mr. Carr. That is all that is paid for rent throughout the Diplo¬ 
matic Service. 

Mr. Newton. Ambassadors and ministers furnish their own quar¬ 
ters ? 

Mr. Carr. Except in a few places. 

The Chairman. Do they furnish their own offices where the offices 
are separate from the embassies? 

Mr. Carr. No. The offices usually in Europe are separate from 
the embassy; in Rome, in Paris, and in London, and I think in 
most of the places the offices are separate. They used to be separate 
in Vienna. In Berlin Mr. Gerard had an embassy in which the 
offices were situated also. In such a case the ambassador pays for 
the building in which he resides and in which his office is located* 
and the Government pays proportionately for the rooms which are 
used as an office. 

Mr. Houghton. We had a case yesterday of some consul or consul 
general you mentioned who received a salary of $5,000 that was j 
given $4,000 by way of an additional compensation to take care of i 
the local expenses. Where does that money come from? 

Mr. Carr. That comes out of the appropriation for post allow- j 
ances. 

Mr. Houghton. That does not refer to rent as is provided for in 
this item? 

Mr. Carr. No ; this sum is devoted solely to the rent of the busi¬ 
ness offices of the embassies and legations, and you see it is a pretty 
small amount when you consider that we have representatives in 
about 48 countries. 

Mr. Houghton. That is to say, if the minister or ambassador pro¬ 
vides a living house for himself, you would pay office rent for the 
rooms he uses as offices for the transaction of the Government busi¬ 
ness? 

Mr. Carr. We would make him a certain allowance, based upon 
the number of rooms he was devoting to a business office for that 
purpose. 

The amount required for repairs to buildings will be $13,000, at 
least. That means repairs to buildings owned by the Government. 

I do not think there is anything there that could be cut down without 
great detriment to the service. 





DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Ill 


1RANSPORTATION OF DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR OFFICERS IN GOING TO 
AND FROM THEIR POSTS. 

Mr. Chairman, although it is not a new item, you may wish to have 
a word or two said about the item for the transportation of diplo¬ 
matic and consular officers in going to and returning from their posts, 
at line 23 on page 8, for which we are asking $145,000. The language 
is self explanatory, and I will furnish the committee with as many 
copies as you wish of the regulations promulgated by the Secretary 
or State, governing the expenditure of money for transportation. 
J he regulations are issued by the Secretary of State in pamphlet 
xorm, following the language of the act, and the expenditures are 
restricted in such a way as to meet the needs of the service as far as 
practicable, consistent with the amount appropriated, so far as we 
can foresee them. 

Mr. Houghton. Do you have a mileage rate, as we have in the 
House? 

Mr. Carr. No; we had a mileage rate, but it was so inadequate and 
worked so unjustly, especially in time of disturbed transportation, 
that we asked Congress to do away with the mileage rates and allow 
us actual itemized expenses. The mileage rate worked out like this, 
that a man might go on a mileage basis from here to Hongkong, 
traveling on a steamer direct there, pretty economically. But as it 
often happened he was unable to get a connecting steamer, if he was 
going on to Singapore. He might have to wait at Hongkong under 
enormous expense for days, and sometimes during the war, for weeks. 
The mileage covered none of that expense, and every now and then 
we would have a stranded consul on our hands. The mileage rate 
was not only inadequate but it was not adjustable to conditions. 

Mr. Begg. How often are they permitted to come home? 

Mr. Carr. This expense for transportation is applicable only when 
they are going to or coming from their posts, or traveling under 
orders of the department, and in no case is it applicable to leave of 
absence. 

Mr. Begg. If a man were an ambassador or consul for 10 years, he 
w T ould have no opportunity to come home? 

Mr. Carr. Not unless he came at his own expense. That is one 
of the worst features of the service—that a man goes out and serves 
his Government, say, in the Far East, and it costs him half his salary 
to come home on a leave of absence, and he has to save carefully for 
two or three or four years before he can get enough money to pay 
his way home, and then when he comes home the law permits him 
to stay for only 60 days. 

I would like to have Mr. Lay give his experience along that line. 

Mr. Lay. I came home on leave in the month of March, 1919, for 
the first time in six and a half years. It cost me a little over $1,500 
to make my trip to the United States and back, and my salary was 
$2,500, and during my 60 days’ leave in the States I worked about 
30 of those days on correspondence addressed to me by various busi¬ 
ness organizations of the country, and on certain work which the 
Department of State desired that I should do while on leave. 

Mr. Brow t ne. Where were you as consul? 

Mr. Lay. In Paris. 




112 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Houghton. Has the department made any recommendation 
in that regard? 

Mr. Carr. The department has not made a definite recommenda¬ 
tion on that point. It has been working for a number of years to 
get this matter of transportation expense adjusted so it would be 
fair to the officers concerned. I think myself that consuls ought to 
be required to come home once in so often, and I think the Govern¬ 
ment ought to pay their expenses in bringing them home. 

Mr. Temple. Could not that situation be met by the Secretary of 
State by issuing an order to a consul to report in Washington on 
certain business ? He would be traveling under orders. 

Mr. Carr. Of course, Mr. Temple, in the first place we are pre¬ 
cluded from doing that because our appropriation so far is barely 
sufficient to pay traveling expenses in the ordinary course of business 
when they go to and from their posts. And the language of this act 
also prevents the Secretary of State from ordering them here for 
leave of absence. It is perfectly true that a man ordered on duty j 
in the State Department gets his traveling expenses, but we can not 
order everybody on duty in the State Department. We ought to 
have a provision which would enable the Secretary of State to say 
to a man who had been so many years in China, “ It is time for you 
to come home, and you are obliged to come home, and the Govern¬ 
ment will pay your expenses.” 

I may say for the information of the committee that that is | 
precisely what every big business firm operating abroad does. The 
United Fruit Co., operating in Central America, does not permit one 
of its representatives to live longer than a certain time in the Tropics 
until he is required to take a vacation, and he takes a certain part 
of it at the expense of the company. Likewise the Standard Oil 
Co., operating in China and other parts of the East, requires its 
representatives or employees to take a vacation once in so often. 
If I am not incorrect in my understanding it pays their expenses 
to the United States. That is generally the custom among the big 
companies operating abroad, and particularly so among the Brit¬ 
ish companies, and by the British Government in the management 
of its consular service. It gives a man a cumulative leave of ab¬ 
sence at the end of a Certain time at the Government’s expense. This 
is not done by private business enterprises or by other Governments 
as a favor to the employee, but because it makes the employee of 
greater value to them through protection of his health, keeping him 
in frequent contact with his home country, and keeping his informa¬ 
tion fresh and up to date. 

Mr. Newton. Then it is true in the case of British officials, no 
matter what capacity they are in. in the colonial or consular service, 
is it not? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

The Chairman. What do you estimate it would cost the Govern¬ 
ment to allow our representatives to return home at times to be 
designated by the Secretary of State? 

Mr. Carr. It is pretty hard to make that kind of an estimate 
except by figuring it up, but with $150,000 expended in the way indi¬ 
cated you could put new life into the service. 

Mr. Newton. I do not see how a man can properly represent the 
United States in its business interests unless he sees something of 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 113 

his home country every now and then, to say nothing of his 
health. 

Mr. Carr. We ought to bring every officer in the service back to 
this country after a certain length of time. We ought to give him a 
leave of absence; that is one thing. But we ought to do something 
more than that. 

The Chairman. Do you not think we should go a step further 
and adopt the plan of the Navy Department, having these men 
serve at their posts abroad for a certain time and then bring them 
; home for a certain period of time? 

Mr. Carr. For a certain length of time; it is a question of how far 
you can carry that. I believe in it in principle. I think we ought 
also to have a generous number of consular and diplomatic officers 
in the State Department. Then, I think we ought to bring back men 
| on leave of absence, and we ought to detail these men and make 
| it a part of their duty to visit not only chambers of commerce and 
commercial associations, but I believe we ought to make it their 
business to visit and study industrial communities and commercial 
communities in the United States. 

Mr. Houghton. You could get tremendous support for that. 

Mr. Carr. I would have them do that, if for no other purpose than 
that of becoming familiar with conditions and seeing what America 
is doing, and be able to carry correct impressions and ideas into 
| the foreign field and utilize them in connection with their intercourse 
i with the people with whom they come in contact abroad. 

Mr. Houghton. It would be a tremendous service in giving infor¬ 
mation to everybody, and you can get an immense amount of sup¬ 
port for that. 

Mr. Temple. Also, when he goes back, it seems to me it would be 
a good idea to send him back to the country with which he is already 
familiar. One case has been brought to my attention of a man who 
had gone down to Australia and who had become pretty well ac¬ 
quainted with business conditions down there, and then he was sent 
to another part of the world, where his knowledge of Australia 
would be of no particular use. If you could have men working in 
pairs, so that when a man would come back from Australia another 
man would be sent out there to keep in touch with the situation 
and the man at home would be able to keep in touch with the situa¬ 
tion while he was at home, and both men would always have fresh 
information, and you would always have the same men specializing 
on the same countries. 

The Chairman. I wish you would draft your idea into concrete 
form in reference to that proposition. 

Mr. Carr. There is also something else there that I had not 
thought of bringing before the committee, but if you will permit me 
to do so, I would like to, not because, perhaps, it is so directly rele¬ 
vant to this bill as it may be to something else in which I hope the 
committee may take a deep interest. 

The one thing which this Government has suffered from for years, 
in my opinion, has been the lack of coordinated information about 
other parts of the world. It is one thing to get information about 
what kind of reapers are needed in South Africa and what they 
ought to be sold for in order to compete with the German manufac- 

161477—20-8 






114 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


turer of reapers or the British manufacturer of reapers, and to 
connect up an agent over there with the exporter over here. That is 
very commendable and most useful. But it does not touch the big 
questions in foreign commerce and the big questions in international 
relations. 

The basis of all our international relations, as I see it, is the eco¬ 
nomic cause; back of every political movement the world over is an 
economic question or consideration. If we could keep our State 
Department promptly and continuously informed of what is going 
on in both the economic and political fields the world over and could 
interpret political movements in the light of their economic setting 
or basis and could then bring that coordinated knowledge to bear 
upon the questions with which it is necessary to deal in our relations 
with other Governments and also utilize it in the formation of wise 
international policies for the promotion and protection of our own 
interests abroad, I believe we could do for this country something 
which we have never done in the past, are not able to do now, and j 
which, if not done in the future, may have an adverse effect of a 
very serious nature in the course of the next 25 or 50 years, and it is j 
in terms of 25 and 50 years rather than in terms of 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 ] 
years that, in my opinion, we ought to be thinking. 

Mr. Temple. Would not that really produce great results in five 
or ten years? 

Mr. Carr. I believe it would produce great results in five or ten 
years. But it is impossible to say what results it would produce in 
25 or 50 years. We are dealing at the present time with enormous 
forces in the world, and we are dealing with them in a very unintel¬ 
ligent manner. We are not looking at them as a business man would 
look at forces entering into the operation and planning of a great 
business. We have no adequate organization either here or abroad 
to carry on our foreign relations in the far-sighted intelligent way 
that they ought to be carried on. We are looking at foreign rela¬ 
tions and foreign trade for the most part in terms of individual 
cases rather than in terms of policies and principles which, once 
adopted and maintained, would automatically dispose of many les¬ 
ser questions of diplomacy and trade for a considerable period.* We 
ought to be looking at diplomatic and commercial relations from 
the standpoint of what they are going to be in this country in 25 
or 50 years, and I believe the extent to which we do that kind of 
work is going to determine some time in the future just how suc¬ 
cessful this country will be in avoiding future conflict with other 
nations. 

Mr. Begg. Is the Secretary of Commerce or the Department of 
Commerce doing any of that work now? 

Mr. Carr. The Secretary of Commerce is doing what I first spoke 
of, and a very commendable work, in gathering information and 
distributing it among business men. But it is not within the func¬ 
tion of the Secretary of Commerce or any domestic department to 
do the thing which I am talking of just now. 

Mr. Begg. Could you not supply the Department of Commerce 
with that particular economic information about these other coun¬ 
tries? The thought I have is that if the Department of State under- 
, takes that will not there be a duplication of work, unless there is 
some restriction on the Department of Commerce? 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 115 

Mr. Carr. Absolutely not, because the Department of Commerce 
is a domestic department for the promotion of trade, by gathering 
concrete economic facts and placing them in the possession of the 
business man on which he can form his impressions about entering 
foreign fields to sell his products, and many other things of a similar 
character. The Secretary of Commerce is not dealing with diplo¬ 
matic policies or great commercial policies, because those things have 
to be dealt with in the department of foreign affairs or the State 
Department. 

The Secretary of State ought to be able not only to have his own 
force in the field and be thoroughly informed, but ought to be able 
to focus in his department everything in every other department 
which has any possible relation to foreign affairs, so that when the 
State Department speaks at a foreign capital its statements may be 
received wfith the full knowledge that it is speaking for all branches 
of the Government of the United States and not for any one branch. 

(Thereupon the committee adjourned to meet Monday, January 12, 
1920, at 10 o’clock a. m.) 


Committee on Foreign Affairs, 

House of Representatives, 

Monday , January 12, 1920. 

The committee this day met, Hon. John J. Rogers, presiding. 

Mr. Rogers. At the last hearing, on Saturday, the last item we 
had up for consideration w r as that at the bottom of page 8 and at 
the top of page 9 relating to the transportation of diplomatic and 
consular officers in going to and returning from their posts. 

INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARY COMMISSION, UNITED STATES AND MEXICO. 

On pages 9, 10, and 11, down to the item on page 11 for the Inter¬ 
national Boundary Commission between the United States and Mex¬ 
ico, the only item of any especial importance is that at the top of 
page 10 relating to emergencies arising in the Diplomatic and Con¬ 
sular Service, which the Secretary of State discussed when he was 
here a w T eek ago. Perhaps it will save time if the committee will 
ask you questions about any of the items down to the bottom of 
page 11, in which they are interested, rather than ask you to make 
a general statement in connection with any of those items. 

EMERGENCY FUND. 

Mr. Houghton. Information has been given the committee in re¬ 
gard to the item on page 10 for $700,000? 

Mr. Rogers. The Secretary of State testified about that. 

Mr. Newton. Were there any figures given showing how that was 
expended ? 

Mr. Rogers. That was very fully discussed in the testimony given 
by the Secretary of State. In substance, he called attention to the 
fact that this was the secret fund of the State Department and he 
suggested that an arrangement could be made by which a subcom¬ 
mittee of this committee could examine the vouchers that make up 
the expenditures. 

Mr. Dickinson. I think the committee should have some knowl¬ 
edge of the unexpended balance at the end of the fiscal year. 




116 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Rogers. Of course, they could riot have knowledge of the bal- *■ 
ance at the end of the fiscal year 1920 at this time. 

Mr. Dickinson. I mean the previous years. 

Mr. Rogers. The unexpended balance here mentioned is the bal¬ 
ance for the fiscal year 1919. . 

Mr. Dickinson. Can you give any estimate of that? 

STATEMENT OF MR. WILBUR J. CARR, DIRECTOR OF THE CONSU¬ 
LAR SERVICE—Continued. 

Mr. Carr. The Secretary of State made a statement before the 
committee that he doubted whether there would be any balance left. 
It is quite impossible to say at the present time whether there will 
be any balance left, because no one knows exactly what drafts will 
be made upon this fund. The balance now remaining is about 
$380,000, and there are a number of large drafts which will be made 
against it before June 30, 1920. 

Mr. Houghton. Is this fund larger than it used to be? 

Mr. Carr. It is very much larger than it used to be before the war. 
Before the war it carried from $90,000 to $100,000. 

Mr. Houghton. Is there a tendency to put the amount back to 
that sum ? 

Mr. Carr. There has been no tendency so far because of conditions 
abroad which the Department of State has had to meet. 

Mr. Houghton. That can be regarded as an emergency item, then? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. I would not in any circumstances advise the cur¬ 
tailment of that fund at the present time because I do not think 
we can see clearly enough into the future to safely reduce the fund. 
That is the only fund which the President and the Secretary of 
State have for making certain kinds of investigations, which are 
provided for nowhere else, that is for work of an essentially confi¬ 
dential character. 

Mr. Newton. I notice it provides in lines 6 and 7 for an appro¬ 
priation “To meet the necessary expenses attendant upon the execu¬ 
tion of the neutrality act.” 

Mr. Carr. Precisely. 

Mr. Newton. There will be no expenditures made for the purpose 
of carrying out the provisions of that act, will there ? 

Mr. Carr. There are always some expenditures made to carry out 
the provisions of the neutrality act at all times. We can never count 
upon other Governments remaining entirely peaceful or the absence 
of conditions which require the United States to enforce its neutral¬ 
ity statutes and make investigation into the facts before doing so. 
We have certain neutral obligations, and we pay the expenses con¬ 
nected with the execution of the neutrality act out of this particular 
fund. It has been notably so along the Mexican border when Mexico 
has been in a turbulent state; we have had neutral obligations to 
meet under our laws, and the' expenditures have come out of this 
fund. 

STEAM LAUNCH FOR EMBASSY AT CONSTANTINOPLE. 

Mr. Dickinson. I am curious to know something about the item 
on lines 9 and 10 of page 9, for the hiring of a steam launch for 
the use of the embassy at Constantinople, for which you are asking 

$1,800. 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 117 

Mr. Carr. That is an item which is peculiar to Constantinople. 
The embassy proper is located in the city of Constantinople. Every 
foreign mission has its summer residence on the Bosporus, some 
distance away. Also, there is occasion to visit the opposite side 
of the channel from time to time, and to do other things which 
have to be done in some kind of a launch. So it is simply a choice 
of having one ready constantly for use or endeavoring to pick up 
one when it is possible to do so, which is not a satisfactory arrange¬ 
ment. So for years the embassy has had at its disposal this $1,800. 

Mr. Dickinson. Is not an item for an automobile carried as an 
incidental expense at some of the other capitals, and could that not 
be done in this case ? 

Mr. Carr. As a matter of fact. I suppose it could be done in that 
way, though I may say for your information that we do not main¬ 
tain automobiles for the embassies. 

Mr. Connally. If you are going to carry it at all, would it not be 
preferable to carry it in this way, because the money might be spent 
for some other purpose if it were not carried in this way ? 

Mr. Carr. I presume that is the precise reason why it is carried 
in this form, and it was not deemed desirable to have it paid out of 
a lump sum. 

Mr. Rogers. As a matter of fact, I suppose we have not been ex¬ 
pending anything under this item for some years, and we may not 
for some time to come. 

Mr. Temple. We did in 1915. 

Mr. Carr. We still have on hand the amount appropriated last 
year. 

Mr. Rogers. Are there any other questions in relation to any of 
the items down to the bottom of page 11? If not, suppose you say a 
word or two in reference to the item relating to the International 
Boundary Commission between the United States and Mexico, with 
special reference to the reappropriation of unexpended balances 
which are asked for. 

INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARY COMMISSION, UNITED STATES AND MEXICO. 

Mr. Carr. That recommendation has been submitted to Congress 
i on the suggestion of the American representative on the Boundary 
Commission, who appeared before the committee last year and ex¬ 
plained his needs himself. 

Mr. Rogers. That is Judge Hill? 

Mr. Carr. That is Judge Hill, yes. I presume you understand 
that the reason he wants that unexpended balance appropriated is 
because he expects that there will be this year some expenditures, 
or a smaller expenditure, whereas next year there may be a larger 
expenditure, and he did not want to ask for a new appropriation to 
the extent of the amount he wants to expend. If you will notice, he 
decreases his demand for a new appropriation by $5,000 plus the 
unexpended balance. Last year, that is, the year ended June 30, 
1919, there was an unexpended balance of $5,135, which, of course, 
went back into the Treasury. 

Mr. Rogers. Is Judge Hill in Washington? 

Mr. Carr. Not so far as I know. But I assume the committee 
would desire to have him before it to explain this item. 



118 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Rogers. I think so. I think the committee will have a great 
deal of curiosity to know why it is going to be necessary to use 
$40,000 in connection with the boundary between the United States 
and Mexico, in view of the unsettled conditions between the two 
countries. 

Mr. Carr. Let me call your attention to the hearing before the 
committee last year, when Judge Hill appeared before the committee 
in reference to this item. The appropriation given him for the 
present year was for the purpose, not exactly of plotting boundaries, 
but for making some investigations into the means of controlling 
the waters tributary to the Rio Grande in such a way as to prevent 
the floods of the Rio Grande and the constant shifting of the bed of 
the stream, and with it the boundary between the United States and 
Mexico. 

Mr. Dickinson. Would this item come within the rule of being 
not only necessary, but being imperative under existing conditions 
down there? 

Mr. Carr. That is a question. A certain part of this is an 
international obligation, and that, of course, is because it is done 
by virtue of treaties between the United States and Mexico; that is, 
the ascertaining of the boundary. 

Mr. Dickinson. What part of it? 

Mr. Carr. The part of it that relates to the investigation into 
means of controlling the waters tributary to the Rio Grande is not, 
I believe, a part of the treaty, but was considered by the commis¬ 
sioner and by Congress to be a very desirable work to undertake to 
the end that possibly the work of this boundary commission might 
be shortened and made eventually unnecessary. 

Mr. Dickinson. Can you give the committee an estimate as to 
what part of this item comes under the treaty obligation? 

Mr. Carr. I can not give you an estimate" of the proportion that 
comes under the treaty obligation. I would have to refer you to 
Judge Hill for that. It seems from the data I have here, according 
to estimates made before this committee last year, that it was under¬ 
stood this work would continue for about two years, in the making 
of surveys and investigations into the possibilities of controlling the 
tributary waters. 

Mr. Rogers. Have you any information as to what work Mexico is 
doing, corresponding with this item? 

Mr. Carr. I have not, except that I understand that the Mexican 
commissioner is working with this commission. 

Mr. Rogers. Have you any estimate as to how the expenditures for 
the last fiscal year were apportioned ? 

Mr. Carr, i have not here, but it will be easy to get that data. 

Mr. Rogers. My impression is, without having discussed the matter 
with the committee, that the feeling will be quite general that this 
will be a good place for some saving. 

Mr. Houghton. Is not the same thing true in connection with the 
boundary line between Alaska and Canada, and between the United 
States and Canada? 

Mr. Rogers. That is on a different basis. For the last half-dozen 
years the political situation between Mexico and the United States 
has been such that no effective work could be done. On the other 
hand, between the United States and Canada, and between Alaska 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 119 

and Canada, the political situation is absolutely settled and stable. 
In addition to that, we have had on the boundary an extremely 
efficient commissioner who has been running the affairs of that com¬ 
mission on behalf of the United States. There has been some doubt, 
especially under the administration of Mr. John Wesley Gaines, the 
commissioner to the South, whether the work there was being done 
wisely and whether it was useful work. 

BOUNDARY COMMISSION, UNITED STATES AND CANADA. 

Mr. Houghton. What is the imperative element in connection with 
the Alaska-Canada boundary? 

Mr. Carr. I would say in a word or so that this work of agreeing 
on the boundary line between the United States and Canada is a 
treaty obligation undertaken by virtue of a treaty between the United 
States and Great Britain. It has been going on for a long period 
of years. It is now virtually nearing completion. The appropria¬ 
tions have been gradually decreased until the estimate for 1921 is 
only $55,000 as against $250,000 and $300,000 in past years. It would 
really be a pity to stop that work now when it is so near completion, 
and it will take only a short time longer, I think. I do not think it 
will occupy more than a year or so to have the whole work com¬ 
pleted. 

There is an increase here of $15,000, which is for the express pur¬ 
pose of re-marking in a little more detailed manner the boundary out 
in Western Canada so as to fix the ownership of certain mining prop¬ 
erties which have been opened up out there, and the work, I think, 
has extended there so as to bring the question of the boundary into 
dispute, as to whether the properties are in British or American 
territory. So that, I think, to carry this particular work on would 
be not only in the interest of the Government but in the interest of 
our own people out there. 

Mr. Mason. Twenty years ago, when we made that treaty, I re¬ 
member seeing them at work on that boundary. That was 20 years 
ago. This is under the same treaty, is it not, and the work has not 
yet been completed ? 

Mr. Temple. The treaty was made in 1908. 

Mr. Mason. There was a treaty made in 1898 in regard to Alaska? 

Mr. Carr. They have come from the Arctic Circle all the way down 
the west side and then across from the Pacific to the eastern end of 
Maine and along the St. Lawrence River, and they have practically 
marked the entire boundary now. The only part remaining to be 
completed is that in the eastern part of the United States, a short 
stretch there, and this part in British Columbia, which needs to be 
marked in more detail for the benefit of American mining interests, 
and a short distance in Minnesota. 

Mr. Temple. There is a part in Maine, and some in New York, 
and a part in Minnesota that has not yet been marked. 

Mr. Rogers. On pages 4 and 5 of the letter of the Secretary of 
State in explanation of the items of the bill, you will find a fairly 
detailed statement of the purposes and basis of the expenditures 
under this item. . 

Are there any other questions on any of the items down to the 
bottom of page 13 ? If not, the next new item is on page 14, provid- 





120 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


ing for the International Prison Commission. Is that a treaty obli¬ 
gation, Mr. Carr? 

INTERNATIONAL PRISON COMMISSION. 

Mr. Carr. That is not a treaty obligation, but it is an obligation 
that was undertaken by virtue of a provision in a law enacted by 
Congress. For example, the diplomatic and consular appropriation 
bill for the year ending June 30, 1913, contained the language— 

That the United States shall continue as an adhering member of the Inter¬ 
national Prison Commission and participate in the work of the said commission, 
and the Secretary of the Treasury be, and is hereby, authorized to pay the 
pro rata share of the United States in the administrative expenses of the In¬ 
ternational Prison Commission and the necessary expenses of a commissioner 
to represent the United States on the said commission at its annual meetings, 
together with necessary clerical and other expenses, out of any money which 
shall be appropriated for such purpose from time to time by Congress. 

So the appropriations for the years from 191(5 to 1919, inclusive,, 
were made for that purpose, but so far Congress has not made an 
appropriation for the current fiscal year. 

Mr. Begg. Is the commission still functioning? 

Mr. Carr. It is functioning so far as it can, without any money. 

Mr. Begg. What is the purpose of the commission—investigation, 
or something else ? 

Mr. Carr. Investigation, and considering ways and means to im¬ 
prove prison legislation in the different countries in reference to 
the treatment of prisoners, the general improvement of prisons, and 
so forth. I think they have really done a very useful work in very 
many ways. 

We have found it advisable in view of the moral obligation of the 
United States as a member of this commission to pay this pro rata 
share of the expenses of the commission, or its quota, to ask Congress 
to appropriate as a deficiency the amount which it failed to appropri¬ 
ate for the current year, and that is now before the Committee on 
Appropriations. 

Mr. Begg. Will $2,550 be sufficient to pay our share of the ex¬ 
penses and the commissioner’s salary ? 

Mr. Carr. I think the commissioner gets no salary. That amount 
is practically all for expenses. That is about all that is paid under 
that item. 

Mr. Houghton. In the act you referred to you say that the Secre¬ 
tary of the Treasury was directed to pay these expenses? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. The letter of the Secretary of State, in explaining this 
item, on page (5, says that “ Appropriations for the years 1916-1919, 
inclusive, were $2,250.” The amount asked for here is $2,550. Which 
is the correct amount ? 

Mr. Carr. The $2,550 is the correct amount. 

Mr. Ackerman. Is the amount of our share based on a percentage 
of the total cost of the prison commission, or is it simply an arbi¬ 
trary sum? 

Mr. Carr. The quota is based upon population, as in the case of 
many of those commissions. 

Mr. Temple. It ranges between 25 and 50 francs per million of 
population. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 121 

Mr. Ackerman. What is the total amount of the expenses of the 
commission a year? 

Mr. Carr. Last year the accounts audited up to June 30, 1919, 
amounted to $1,513, but that did not include all the expenses. 

Mr. Ackerman. That was the share of this Government. What 
was the entire cost of maintaining the International Prison Com¬ 
mission ? 

Mr. Carr. That I can not tell you. 

Mr. Begg. Can you tell me readily what countries are participat¬ 
ing in the work of this commission? 

Mr. Carr. There were 38 countries represented in the congress 
of 1910, and 20 countries are adhering members of the commission. 
1 do not have the names of the countries here, but they would include 
practically all the important countries. This prison commission, 
by the way, exists by virtue of the initiative of the United States 
itself, which under the authority of a joint resolution of Congress 
in 1871, sent a commissioner to Europe for the purpose of getting 
other nations interested in this subject, and the United States has 
been represented at the various conferences held in Stockholm, in 
Home. St. Petersburg, Paris, Brussels, Washington, London, and 
so forth. 

Mr. Begg. May I ask you another question? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Begg. As I understand it, the commission has been in existence 
since 1916, and we made appropriations from 1916 to 1919. Have 
we been paying any since then? 

Mr. Carr. We had been paying for some years before this time. 

Mr. Rogers. Since 1896? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Begg. I would like to ask another question. Have they done 
anything more than to investigate? 

Mr. Carr. Yes; I think they have done a great deal. For in¬ 
stance, they make a report annually. 

Mr. Begg. To whom? 

Mr. Carr. To the various Governments. The report is usually 
printed by Congress. 

Mr. Begg. It stops there, does it not ? 

Mr. Carr. I think they have had considerable effect on general 
prison administration throughout the world. 

Mr. Temple. That is all they can do. It is then up to the various 
Governments. As I understand it, the indeterminate sentence and 
parole are the results of their investigations and reports. 

Mr. Begg. I want to know whether we have profited in any way 
by their investigation. In 24 years we ought to be able to get some 
tangible records. 

Mr. Temple. It is said that the indeterminate sentence and the 
parole of prisoners and other prison reforms have come very largely 
out of their investigations and reports. 

Mr. Carr. If I might suggest, if we did not get anything more out 
of it than a mere participation in it and the exchange of ideas with 
the representatives of the other Governments, it would be worth many 
times the small amount which Congress appropriates for the purpose. 
It is one of those things—and there are a number of them in this 
bill—concerning which the value is not to be estimated at all by the 








122 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


amount of money which goes into them. They are worth infinitely 
more than we can possibly imagine, from the amount of money con¬ 
tributed. 

Mr. Begg. Another thing I can not understand is where you have 
been able to get men to serve on this commission for no salary for 24 
years. 

Mr. Carr. There are many men, especially scientists and students 
who would be very glad to serve their Government by representing 
it at these conferences, merely if their expenses were paid. They 
are not usually men of considerable fortunes, and they can not 
afford to do these things at their own expense. But they will be 
very glad to give their services to the Government if the Govern¬ 
ment will pay their traveling expenses. 

Mr. Smith of Illinois. Simply from the humanitarian stand¬ 
point ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. A member of this particular commission, I hap¬ 
pen to know, received the Indian member of this commission not 
long ago. There was no appropriation for that kind of expense on 
the part of our representative on this commission, so rather than see 
the Indian member turned away or thrown entirely on his own re¬ 
sources, in his desire to look into the prisons of the United States 
and find out what we w T ere doing in that regard, the commissioner 
representing the United States spent his own money in taking care 
of the Indian commissioner. I tell you that merely to indicate to 
you the attitude of the men who are members of some of these commis¬ 
sions toward questions of that sort. That is not a question of money; 
it is a question of science, a question of securing better treatment of 
prisoners and promoting more enlightened work in that direction. 

Mr. Newton. We have a prison reform association in the United 
States. I know in my own city there are men who spend their own 
money purely from a humanitarian standpoint to further the aims 
of that association. 

Mr. Carr. That is generally true of certain types of men in all 
countries. 

Mr. Connally. Is it not true with reference to this particular 
commission, as it is with all these various international commissions, 
that it is not so much for the benefit of the State Department in 
getting a knowledge of these different countries as it is to assist the 
State Department in connection with our international intercourse? 

Mr. Carr. It benefits the State Department in its general inter¬ 
course as between the United States and other nations. And, still 
more, it does what Dr. Rowe so well explained the other day: It 
starts groups of men in this country cooperating with groups of men 
in other countries. When we get that going on in several different 
lines of work—in several different professions, if you please—in the 
course of 10, 15. or 20 years a marvelous work has’been done which 
means a great deal toward a better understanding, and that better 
understanding means a great deal toward decreasing the difficulties 
which, let us say, our merchants have in their relations with other 
countries in carrying on commerce with other countries. 

It means a great deal of difficulty removed which our Secretary 
of State has to encounter in bringing about better relations and in 
bringing about the settlement of questions with other countries. All 
these things have a very direct bearing upon our foreign relations, 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


123 


our political relations, and a distinctly important effect upon our 
commercial relations with other countries. Judging the matter from 
the extent to which I have had to look into it, I have thought that we 
ought to do more of it, that we ought to Gfive more energetic support 
to international commissions. T think they accomplish a commend¬ 
able and an important work. 

Mr. Ackerman. I understood vou to sav our representative on this 
commission had served for 24 years. 

Mr. Carr. No; the present representative on the commission was 
appointed at a very recent date. 

Mr. Ackerman. Is he appointed for a special term? 

Mr. Carr. No. 

Mr. Ackerman. For as lon<r as he may serve? 

Mr. Carr. For as long as the administration wishes him to serve. 

BUREAU or interparliamentary union for promotion of interna¬ 
tional ARBITRATION. 

Mr. Rogers. There is a somewhat similar item on the next page, 
“Bureau of Interparliamentary Union for Promotion of Interna¬ 
tional Arbitration.” That was carried in the bill for some years, but 
was dropped last year? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Mason. From what I have been informed, that is a very use¬ 
ful organization. 

Mr. Carr. That was a matter in which this committee was particu¬ 
larly interested, and in which it has been particularly interested for 
a good many years. Mr. Bartholdt used to be especially interested 
in it. 

Mr. Newton. Did not Mr. Moores attend an interparliamentary 
congress in Switzerland not long ago? 

Mr. Carr. Yes; I think so. I think this bureau had its origin in 
the relationships which sprang up between various legislative bodies 
in different countries. There have been conferences held in various 
countries by the representatives of the principal countries of the 
world, and other countries have been members of those conferences. 

PAN AMERICAN UNION. 

Mr. Newton. I want to ask you a question in reference to the item 
on page 14 for the Pan American Union. It is provided there that 
there shall be credited to the appropriation of $100,000 any moneys 
received from the other American Republics for the support of the 
union. Just how much support have these Central and South 
American countries contributed to that fund? 

Mr. Carr. They contribute an amount based upon population— 
their proportion according to their population. I can not tell you 
offhand iust what that amount is. 

Mr. Newton. Do they pay it? 

Mr. Carr. Yes; of course. 

Mr. Rogers. My recollection is that we pay about 80 per cent, based 
on copulation, and the other 20 Republics pay the other 20 per cent, 

Mr. Carr. I think that is correct. 

Mr. Newton. I presume that is the reason it is made up in this 

form. 



124 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. Up to last year our quota was $85,000, and it ran 
last year to $100,000, did it not? 

Mr. Carr. It ran last year to $100,000, upon the suggestion of the 
representatives of the member Governments to make that recom¬ 
mendation to all Governments, and the recommendation was made 
to this Government, and this Government provided its quota of 
$ 100 , 000 . 

Mr. Rogers. I suppose nothing has happened to make it appro¬ 
priate to reduce that amount to the original figure ? 

Mr. Carr. I think not, because one of the reasons why that was 
made was because of the increased expenses in running that organi¬ 
zation. 

interparliamentary union. 

Mr. Rogers. Mr. Carr, you have not really contributed very much 
information in regard to this Interparliamentary Union. Is there 
anything more you can say on that item ? What is the history of the 
appropriation? 

Mr. Carr. The history of it is that an American group in the 
Interparliamentary Union, made up of members of the American 
Congress, was organized in the spring of 1904, on the initiative of 
Hon. Richard Bartholdt, a Member of Congress from Missouri, and 
ever since that time an American group has participated in the 
different conferences of the union. They had been having biennial 
conferences up until the war began. They held conferences at 
Paris, London, Rome, Berne, The Hague, Brussels, Budapest, 
Christiania, Vienna, and Geneva, and in 1904 Congress appropriated 
$50,000 for the expenses of a conference which took place in St. 
Louis, Mo. 

The bureau is located in Brussels. There are 20 different coun¬ 
tries which make annual contributions, according to the size and popu¬ 
lation of the different countries, for the maintenance of the bureau, 
including Great Britain, Germany, Russia, France, Austria, Italy. 
Spain, Japan, Turkey, Belgium, The Netherlands, Portugal, Hun¬ 
gary, Greece, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, Roumania, and Ser¬ 
bia. It is composed of members of the various parliaments of the 
world. The bureau at Brussels keeps a list of the various members 
and directs their formation, attends to the execution of the decisions 
of the council, and keeps documents concerning international arbi¬ 
tration as well as other documents of the union. 

Mr. Rogers. Do you know what the total budget is? 

Mr. Carr. I do not have the details of the total budget, but there 
is a very complete history of the union in House Document 645, 
Sixty-second Congress, third session. 

Mr. Rogers. How long have we been appropriating this $2,000 a 
year for this purpose? 

Mr. Carr. We used to appropriate $2,500, but in 1915 we reduced 
it to $2,000. 

Mr. Rogers. Was last year the first year in which we eliminated 
it from the act? 

Mr. Carr. Last year seems to be the first year that that appropria¬ 
tion was eliminated. There was an appropriation in 1919. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 125 

Mr. Begg. I want to ask you this question seriously: The league 
of nations is a fact in Europe, or will be. Will these other coun¬ 
tries contribute to this organization, with the provisions as they are 
in the league of nations? 

Mr. Carr. I do not know. 

Mr. Begg. It seems to me this is a wholly useless proposition if 
the league of nations functions. 

Mr. Carr. No; I should not agree to that, because this is a union 
made up of representatives of the legislative bodies of the world, 
whereas the league of nations is a league made up of the Govern¬ 
ments of the world. 

Mr. Begg. But if I understand the league of nations rightly, it 
takes absolute control of matters of peace and war in all countries 
that are members of the league for providing a satisfactory means 
whereby adjustments of conditions between nations must be handled. 

Mr. Mason. I have read the last report on that proposition, and I 
have read the covenant of the league, and I think your question is 
very timely, for my recollection is that all of the activities are pro¬ 
vided for. I am very strongly for this Interparliamentary Union, 
but since you asked the question it does seem that all the activities 
provided for in this Interparliamentary Union are provided for in 
the league of nations, and, with the exception of the United States, 
that has been practically adopted by all the countries. So it would 
seem as if this might be duplication. They get statistics and they get 
reports and they keep people posted upon all questions of interna¬ 
tional arbitration, and they want to bring it about. 

Mr. Carr. May I suggest that quite irrespective of what the 
league of nations may or may not accomplish, which none of us 
knows at the present moment, I wonder if we clearly note the dis¬ 
tinction between the kind of thing the Interparliamentary Union 
is and a league such as the league of nations, in which the different 
governments are represented as governments. 

As I understand the matter, the International Parliamentary 
Union is not a governmental organization. It is an association of 
legislative bodies of the different governments, which is quite a 
different thing from an association of representatives of the execu¬ 
tive branches of the different governments. This is for the purpose, 
as I understand it, of influencing public opinion in the different 
countries. The other kind of organization would be for the pur¬ 
pose of coordinating executive action in the different countries, or 
governmental action. 

Mr. Connally. Let me make this suggestion along that line. 
Under the form of the league of nations, even with the strong res¬ 
ervations proposed, the league of nations would not obtain juris¬ 
diction of a dispute if the nations themselves decided to settle it by 
arbitration. So there is nothing inconsistent in the work of this 
union and the existence of the league of nations, because if those 
men by their own machinery and method of arbitrating a dispute 
can settle it, it is never referred to the council of the league of 
nations for settlement, and I think that is very attractive work 
which is carried on, because if private individuals can settle their 
disputes without resorting to the courts, good lawyers always advise 
them to do that. 



126 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Carr. Indeed, I should suppose the Interparliamentary Union 
would be a very useful adjunct to the league of nations or any other 
organization of that sort. 

NINETEENTH CONFERENCE, INTERPARLIAMENTARY UNION. 

Mr. Rogers. In this connection, I would like to invite the attention 
of the committee to the item on page 23, extending the appropria¬ 
tion of $40,000 made for the 1919 conference of the Interparlia¬ 
mentary Union, which was supposed to have been held in Wash¬ 
ington in 1915, but which was, of course, postponed because of the 
war, and has been postponed year after year since that time. This 
committee dropped this item from the current appropriation act, and 
I notice the department asks its restoration. I think whatever 
action we take should be somewhat with reference to these two items; 
in other words, they go together. 

The committee last year dropped out both of these items. The 
question would naturally be presented this year whether that action 
shall be continued, or both items be restored, and I think it may 
be we will use the wording of the second item as well as that of 
the first for this purpose. 

Mr. Carr. With regard to the second item for the Nineteenth 
Conference of the Interparliamentary Union, the department had 
the impression that the dropping of that item was largely because 
of the war situation, and that possibly with the restoration of peace 
Congress would wish to consider the holding of that congress. 
After all, it is a matter for the legislative branch of the Govern¬ 
ment rather than for the executive branch of the Government to 
consider, and the item was put into the estimates by the Secretary of 
State in order that it might be brought to the attention of Congress 
for such action as that body might wish to take. 

Mr. Rogers. Have there been conferences held in 1915 or since 
which in a sense replaced the one intended to be held at Washing¬ 
ton ? I was interested to see what relationship the conference which 
Mr. Moores has been attending bore to the one which was to have 
been held in Washington? 

Mr. Carr. I have no information about what has taken placy 
since the war began. 

Mr. Houghton. Might I suggest that we pass those items until 
we go into executive session? 

Mr. Rogers. Very well. 

INTERNATIONAL RAILWAY CONGRESS. 

Mr. Rogers. The next new item is the item on page 16, asking for 
an appropriation of $400 “ to pay the quota of the United States as 
an adhering member of the International Railway Congress for the 
year ending April 15, 1921.” 

Mr. Houghton. There could not be any question about that, could 
there? 

Mr. Rogers. It has been dropped for four years. 

Mr. Carr. The United States became an adhering member of the 
International Railway Congress in 1905. Although the obligation 
is not based upon a treaty, the expenses of the sessions of the con- 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 127 

gress are distributed over five-year periods and therefore the pro rata 
is understood in each case to cover a five-year period. The last pro 
rata period of the United States began in 1915 and continued until 
1919. The last appropriation made by Congress was for the fiscal 
year 1916, when $400 was appropriated. There was an error in the 
accounting, in that 400 francs instead of $400 was asked for in 1915 
and 1917. These two amounts of $160 were paid out of the 1916 
appropriation, and the remainder of the appropriation reverted to 
the Treasury. 

The Belgian Government has now asked us, explaining this 
error, for the quota for the fiscal year 1918-19, and the quota for 
the fiscal year 1917-18, the difference between the quota due and 
that actually paid for the fiscal year 1916-17, which is $400 less 
$80, or $320, and the difference between the quota due and the amount 
actually paid for the fiscal year 1915-16, $400 less $80, which is 
$320, or a total deficiency of $1,440. 

Mr. Newton. That is now before the Committee on Appropria¬ 
tions? 

Mr. Carr. That is now before the Committee on Appropriations. 
All of that relates to those amounts, and the amount of $400 is in¬ 
cluded in the regular estimates for the fiscal year 1921. 

That brings up the matter of the international obligation which 
the United States incurred by going into an association where the 
dues are a certain amount every year, and then without serving 
notice of withdrawal in accordance with the terms on which it 
entered, suddenly cease to make an appropriation, and it shows very 
clearly that we not only do not cancel our legal and moral obliga¬ 
tions by ceasing to appropriate but that we are likely to be called 
upon later on by the Government having control of the bureau to pay 
our dues. It is the same sort of thing as going into a club and with¬ 
drawing before the end of the year and not paying your dues. You 
are expected to pay at least to the end of the year in which your 
withdrawal takes place. There is not any question about the United 
States being morally obligated under the conditions which I have 
set forth to pay not only the deficiency but to pay its dues up until 
the end of the period prescribed by the rules of the association. 

Mr. Begg. What is the judgment of the Department of State as 
to the advisability of continuing as a member of this organization? 

Mr. Carr. I think the Department of State would undoubtedly 
favor our continuing as a member in an association of this sort, be¬ 
cause as the country having the greatest number of railways in the 
world, I think we ought to be interested in being a member of an 
international railway association. 

REIMBURSEMENT OF CONSUL ROSS HAZELTINE. 

Mr. Rogers. The next new item, on page 16, is for the reimburse¬ 
ment of Consul Ross Hazeltine, and the amount asked for is $164.25. 

Mr. Begg. He actually lost the money, did he not? 

Mr. Carr. He actually lost the money. He took every reasonable 
and proper precaution, I think. Nevertheless, his consulate was 
destroyed, and the money was destroyed. The money was in the 
safe, but it was destroyed" It does not seem quite fair that he him¬ 
self should be the loser. 




128 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Rogers. Are there any precedents for this sort of reimburse¬ 
ment ? 

Mr. Carr. I do not recall any exact precedent for this. 

Mr. Rogers. It seems common justice, and I wondered why it has 
not been brought to our attention. 

Mr. Carr. The only case I recall in any way similar to this was 
one where the money was missing, through robbery, and Congress 
did not appropriate for reimbursement, so far as 1 recall. 

Mr. Temple. It occurs frequently in other departments. 

Mr. Connally. What are the requirements in your department 
as to the proper method to be pursued by consuls for the custody 
of funds? Are they required to keep them in a safe or in a bank? 

Mr. Carr. They are expected, and ordinarily they do keep their 
official money in* banks, but always, at their own risk. If a bank 
should burn down and the money "would be lost, the consul unques- 
tionaly would be responsible to the Government under his bond. 
In this case, for some reason, the consul carried this small amount in 
his safe. You will notice that it is a very small amount of money, 
which he doubtless had on hand for current needs. The consulate 
was destroyed and the money was lost. It does not seem quite fair 
that he should bear that expense. 

Mr. Rogers. I should like to read a paragraph from the Secre¬ 
tary’s letter, on page 7, in connection with this item, because we want 
to save a point of order on this in the House. The Secretary says: 

Through the destruction by fire of the American consulate at Port Antonio, 
Jamaica, on August 26, 1917, the American consul at that post, Mr. Ross 
Hazeltine, suffered the loss of official funds, through no fault of his own, valued 
at $164.25. At the time of their loss the funds were deposited in the official 
safe of the consulate, in which they were burned, and his efforts to save the 
money, although unsuccessful, were none the less thorough. As the depositing 
of such funds in the consular safe was in the line of his official duties, it is 
felt that the Government could not properly attach such personal responsibility 
to Consul Hazeltine as would force him to bear the loss of these funds. No 
valuation of personal effects or articles other than official funds lost in the fire 
are included in the amount of the estimate. 

SALARIES AND EXPENSES, UNITED STATES COURT FOR CHINA. 

Mr. Rogers. In reference to the items in the United States Court 
for China, suppose you make a statement, to the committee about the 
small changes in amounts in that item and then we will proceed to 
the legislative changes proposed on pages 17 and 18. I will say, 
parenthetically, that perhaps you may not recall that on October 18 
of this year Judge Lobingier was in Washington and he testified quite 
fully before the committee with relation to the changes which he 
recommended, both in the amounts to be carried in the first item 
and also the legislative cases, which are set out on the succeeding 
pages, and if the committee desire to inform themselves fully as to 
his reasons for the changes they will be found in the printed copy of 
the hearings when he was before the committee. 

Mr. Carr. Referring, first, to the item for salaries and expenses, 
beginning on line 20, page 16, you will notice that the words “ and 
court reporter ” are added after the word “ stenographer,” on line 21. 
and the salary of the stenographer and court reporter is increased 
from $1,800 to $2,400. The reason for that is that a man competent 





DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 129 

to do the court reporting can not be had for $1,800 a year in China 
at the present time, and particularly so, as I testified before the com¬ 
mittee the other day, because of silver having gone up to such an 
extent that a salary in China to-day, payable in gold, requires almost 
double the amount of gold that it did two or three years ago. So 
that the only way, so far as I know, of getting a satisfactory report 
of the proceedings in the Court for China is to have a properly 
qualified stenographer, and I think unquestionably there should be 
the same rules observed there as in courts in the United States and 
that they should have the services of a court reporter. 

Mr. Newton. Even with this increase he is not getting the compen¬ 
sation he did before the financial situation changed ? 

Mr. Carr. No; $1,800 in 1914 would be about $900 now. 

Mr. Rogers. I should like to put in this record two or three sen¬ 
tences from Judge Lobingier’s testimony before the committee in 
October. He says: 

At the present time the court reporter’s salary is $1,800. My present reporter, 
who is a good one, has telegraphed me his resignation since I have been here. 
The business houses in Shanghai have offered him more. I can not obtain or 
retain a reporter who is competent to do the work for $1,800. I have asked 
for an increase to $2,400, which will be much more than met if the committee 
adopts this schedule of probate fees. In fact it means an increase of $600. 
The reporter does a great deal of outside reporting. The present reporter has 
really been a deputy clerk, and he does a great deal of correspondence and is 
a very competent man, and perhaps with this increase I might be able to get 
him to withdraw his resignation. 

Mr. Carr. It is practically the question of the influence of exchange 
on salaries in China. 

Mr. Rogers. There is no increase in this item except the increase 
of the salary of the stenographer and court reporter from $1,800 to 
$2,400? 

Mr. Carr. That is the only increase. The other change in figures 
in that item is simply a rearrangement. I might say in regard 
to that rearrangement that Congress, by the language of this provi¬ 
sion, authorized Judge Lobingier to print and bind the opinions of 
the court, because the opinions of the court had theretofore not been 
printed and bound and made available in any orderly manner, as 
they should be. They should be available to all of the lawyers prac¬ 
ticing before that court in China. Congress gave that authority 
with an appropriation of $1,000. The amount of $1,000, unfortu¬ 
nately, will not enable the judge to do that work. He thinks, with 
his regular appropriation for expenses and sufficient latitude, he may 
be able to save enough out of that to enable him to do this collecting 
and printing and indexing of the opinions of the court. I think it 
would be a most commendable thing to permit him to do and very 
much in the interest of all Americans living in China. It means 
no further expense to the Government. 

Mr. Rogers. The first paragraph of the proposed legislation is 
intended to authorize the judge to appoint a United States com¬ 
missioner ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. That is a proposal of the judge of the United 
States Court for China, and has the approval of the Department of 
State, because at the present moment there are two minor courts 
in Shanghai where there ought to be only one. The law establish- 

161477—20-9 





130 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

ing the United States Court for China, passed, I think, in 1905 or 
1906, gave the United States Court for China jurisdiction of all 
cases involving not more than 60 days’ imprisonment or $100 fine, 
and those minor cases were left in the consular court, and by a sub¬ 
sequent law the judicial jurisdiction in that minor consular court 
was vested in a vice consul. A short time ago—last summer, in 
fact—a case came before the United States Court for China, and 
that court decided that notwithstanding the law, because of a 
change in that law which took place later, the United States Court ! 
for China had concurrent jurisdiction even in the minor cases. | 
So that the vice consul, on the one hand, is trying cases of a minor 
nature, and the United States Court for China, on the other hand, j 
is trying cases of a minor nature. 

The vice consul is not a lawyer practicing in the United States 
Court, and the judge, of course, and his commissioner are lawyers. 
There is not any doubt that the cases ought to be tried in the United 
States Court for China. There is a bill before Congress, or it 
was before Congress at its last session, designed to transfer to and 
consolidate in the United States Court for China all judicial func¬ 
tions in the city of Shanghai. That bill was not passed, but it did 
contain a provision similar to this one. The State Department very 
cordially indorses the request of the judge of the United States 
Court for China that this provision should, even though it is open 
to a point of order, if possible, be put through Congress and enacted 
into law at the earliest moment so that we may get rid of this conflict 
of jurisdiction and place the judicial functions where they belong. 

Mr. Mason. It seems to me we heard the judge on that subject, 
and we practically unanimously agreed to recommend that. 

Mr. Rogers. This language as now presented is not as it was 
drafted by the judge. I suppose this has been revised by the State 
Department. 

Mr. Carr. The language drafted by the judge, as I recall, left the 
appointment of the commissioner entirely in the hands of the judge 
and gave the judge the right to fix his salary. The Department 
of State feels that owing to the intimate relation of the United 
States Court for China to the international relations of the United 
States with the Government of China and the fact that the mere 
presence of a United States judicial organization on Chinese soil 
is really by virtue of a treaty with China, the Secretary of State 
should retain the power at least of approval of the appointment of a 
commissioner and fixing of his salary. 

Mr. Begg. Who appoints the judge? 

Mr. Carr. He is appointed by the President. 

Mr. Begg. And confirmed by the Senate? 

Mr. Carr. And confirmed by the Senate. 

Mr. Begg. Then why should not his subordinate get his appoint¬ 
ment and confirmation through the same source? 

Mr. Carr. Because it is customary for judges in the United States 
to appoint commissioners. The law provides for them. 

Mr. Begg. I do not see the connection. If the judge is appointed ' 
by the President and his appointment is approved by the Senate, 1 
why should his appointee be approved by the Secretary of State? 

I know what you said, but that does not seem quite logical. 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


131 


Mr. Carr. The reason is that this court occupies a peculiar relation 
to the United States in that it is on foreign soil. 

Mr. Begg. Is that not true of the judge, too? Is not the sub¬ 
ordinate court on the same ground as far as that is concerned? 
Why should not the Secretary of State approve the appointment of 
the principal judge, if there is any argument along that line? 

Mr. Carr. I imagine the Secretary of State has something to say 
about the appointment of the judge in the first place, although the 
law does not provide it. 

Mr. Begg. 1 can not see the importance of that in connection with 
the subordinate position when you do not apply it to the principal 
position. 

Mr. Rogers. The appointments of the district attorneys, the mar¬ 
shal, and the cleric of the court are all confirmed by the Senate? 

Mr. Carr. Yes; the appointment of the district attorneys and the 
marshal, and the clerk of the court are confirmed by the Senate. 

Mr. Rogers. There would not be any great objection to having 
the appointment of this commissioner also confirmed by the Senate, 
would there? 

Mr. Carr. I suppose not. 

Mr. Cox nally. Why would it be proper to require that in the 
case of China, when every 'Federal judge in the United States ap¬ 
points his own commissioner? 

Mr. Rogers. That is true, but the suggestion is that since the con¬ 
firmation of the appointment of these other officials by the Senate 
is provided for, you might as well have the same thing apply in 
this case. 

Mr. Conxally. Because it is a measure under the Secretary of 
State. I suppose that is why the Secretary of State desires to have 
some supervision over the appointments. 

Mr. Ackerman. You stated that this court is on foreign soil. Is 
it not in the foreign portion of Shanghai, where the United States 
has been given a part of the city, where they hold absolute jurisdic¬ 
tion just as they would in the United States of America? For in¬ 
stance, there is a United States post office there and they use United 
States postage stamps, and they exercise authority over that portion 
of Shanghai, just as they do in the city of Washington. 

Mr. Carr. It is not quite that. We might have been in that posi¬ 
tion if we had done as we ought to have done a number of years 
ago. Just as certain territory for foreign settlement was handed 
over to the British, and other territory to the French, a certain por¬ 
tion of Shanghai was offered to us. But we never accepted it, and so 
v r e have not an American settlement there in the strict sense of the 
word, as the French and the British have. But, nevertheless, our 
consul is a member of the body of consuls who have a large share in 
the general municipal government of Shanghai, and there is that 
reason why the Secretary of State should have something to say 
about the selection of any American governmental representative in 
the city of Shanghai. 

Mr. Ackerman. I have been in Shanghai a number of times and 
it seemed to me that the jurisdiction was almost the same as if you 
were in your own country. 

Mr. Temple. Is it not true that the jurisdiction is not territorial 
at all, but personal? If an American citizen in any part of China 
commits a crime he is tried in the American court? 



132 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Ackerman. He is brought to Shanghai to be tried? 

Mr. Carr. Or the court goes to him. 

Mr. Temple. The Chinese Government does not have jurisdiction 
over American citizens in China. 

Mr. Ackerman. Is it by treaty? 

Mr. Temple. It has been since 1844. 

Mr. Begg. What about trial by jury? 

Mr. Temple. They do not have juries there. There was a murder 
case tried there without a jury, which was carried to the United 
States Supreme Court. It has the same jurisdiction as a church court, 
not over territory, but over the person. 

Mr. Rogers. I do not see why you have cut out that part of the 
item on page 18, beginning on line 9 and running to line 16, and 
put a paragraph at the bottom of page 17 in the-same language in 
italics, as if it were a new paragraph.' 

Mr. Carr. That is a clerical error. It should not be there in that 
fashion. 

Mr. Rogers. Then we will cut out the italicized paragraph at the 
bottom of page 17. 

Mr. Carr. That is already law, and not subject to a point of order; 
and the first paragraph on page 18 is practically law at the present 
time, except for a detail or so. 

Mr. Connally. Was not the idea to let the clerk of the court act 
as commissioner? 

Mr. Carr. I think so. 

Mr. Connally. That provision was put in there so as not to let 
him get over $5 a day while he was acting as commissioner, I sup¬ 
pose ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Connally. The clerk of the court is appointed by the judge 
without confirmation by anybody. If the court should appoint a 
clerk and the Secretary of State did not approve his appointment 
as commissioner, he would have to appoint some one else, and that 
would make two jobs instead of one, and the idea of the judge, as 
I understand it, is to combine the two offices in the clerk and save 
extra compensation. I see your point, but, personally, I can not see 
very much in the argument about the Secretary of State approving 
the appointment. 

Mr. Houghton. What is the reason that would lead the Secretary 
of State to desire to have the approval of that man ? 

Mr. Carr. In order to have a certain control over the kind of men 
who go into that place. 

Mr. Begg. How is he going to know what kind of a man he is ex¬ 
cept upon the word of the judge? 

Mr. Carr. He has many ways of knowing. He has a minister in 
Peking and a consul general in Shanghai, and he has an inspector for 
the Far East. 

Mr. Connally. It is a practical proposition. Is it not reasonable to 
suppose that the judge would not appoint some one whom he knew to 
be not desired by the Secretary of State? 

Mr. Carr. No ; I think he would not. 

Mr. Connally. The commissioner is to be ex-officio judge of the 
consular court? Is that not called a consular court because the func¬ 
tions have been discharged by the consuls? 





DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


133 


Mr. Temple. Under the provisions of the treaty this consular court 
is established. If it is a consular court provided for by treaty, it 
gives the Secretary of State some jurisdiction. 

Mr. Carr. It has generally been accepted, although there is noth¬ 
ing in the law about it, that the United States court for China was 
in a sense under a sort of quasi jurisdiction of the Secretary of State. 

Mr. Smith of Illinois. Its actions might affect the diplomatic re- 
| 1 at ions of the country, and, of necessity, it seems to me it should be 
under the jurisdiction of the State Department. 

Mr. Carr. The relation of the Federal Government with the other 
United States courts is through the Department of Justice. The re¬ 
lation of the Federal Government to the United States Court for 
China has always been through the Secretary of State. 

Mr. Houghton. Who would recommend the appointment of a 
judge—the Secretary of State? 

Mr. Carr. In regard to the judges so far appointed, my recollec¬ 
tion is that the Secretary of State has invariably recommended them. 
The first judge was Mr. Wilfley and the next judge was Mr. Thayer. 
I know the first one was recommended by Secretary Root and the 
second one I think was recommended by tiie Secretary of State, and 
the present judge was recommended by Mr. Biyan while he was Sec¬ 
retary of State. 

Mr. Rogers. I want to ask you a question about the paragraph at 
the top of page 18 in reference to the rate of exchange as it affects 
the salaries. These settlements of exchange are to be made from the 
total amount appropriated for salaries and court expenses for the 
fiscal years ending June 30, 1919, and June 30, 1920? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. It is rather an unusual provision, is it not, to refer 
back to previous fiscal years as the basis for making a payment of 
this kind ? That is carried in the current law ? 

Mr. Carr. That is carried in the current law T , and it was put in 
on the recommendation of the district attorney in Shanghai, who 
I think appeared before this committee and the Senate Committee 
in advocacy of it, and Senator Saulsbury also appeared before the 
Senate Committee in advocacy of it. It was because the court was 
not receiving the same sort of treatment in so far as the settlement of 
its accounts was concerned that the consular officers in China were 
receiving, and this was done as a means to secure that same treat¬ 
ment. 

Mr. Rogers. Do you mean that reference to these two fiscal years 
was necessary to make an identity of treatment? 

Mr. Carr. In the last year it referred to the fiscal year immediately 
preceding. 

Mr. Rogers. The item in the current law refers to the years end¬ 
ing June 30, 1918, and June 30,1919. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. What is the occasion for referring to two fiscal years? 

Mr. Carr. The reason is that under the law the appropriation 
does not lapse for two years after it is made, so that the 1919 ap¬ 
propriation would not lapse until 1921. That is the reason for 
mentioning both the years. Both of them would be available within 
that time. 




134 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Rogers. Judge Lobingier in testifying before the committee 
■urged legislation, either in the form of fundamental law, or on an 
appropriation bill, which would permit the courts to exact an in¬ 
heritance tax from estates which come before his court for adminis¬ 
tration. In his testimony before the committee, he urged legislation, 
either in the form of fundamental law, or on an appropriation bill, 
which would permit the court to exact an inheritance tax from 
estates which come before his court for administration. In his 
testimony before the committee in October he laid great stress on 
that point, and he proposed that this language should be put in as 
a proviso on the diplomatic and consular appropriation bill: 

Provided, That in probate and administration proceedings there shall be 
collected by said clerk before entering the order of final distribution and paid 
into the Treasury of the United States a percentage of the value of the estate | 
in China, as follows: One per cent where such value does not exceed $50,000; j 
2 per cent where suclr value exceeds $50,000 and does not exceed $150,000 ; 3 
per cent where such value exceeds $150,000. 

His viewpoint was that a decedent in China was able to leave his 
property untaxed, whereas if that same man happened to die in 
the United States he would have left an estate subject to quite a 
heavy tax, and further, that if this sum of money should be ob¬ 
tained through the medium of an inheritance tax it would make this 
court self-supporting and would make Congress feel that it could 
allow the court to branch out in new directions. I notice the Secre¬ 
tary of State does not recommend that legislative provision. Is 
that because he is opposed to it or because he thought it was useless 
to try to put it into an appropriation bill? 

Mr. Carr. In the first place, as the judge had the proposition 
phrased, the Secretary did not quite approve of it. My recollection 
is that the amount or percentages which the judge specified exceeded 
the inheritance tax prescribed by the Government of the United 
States and that the feeling in the department was that if an inherit¬ 
ance tax was to be collected it should be not in excess of that col¬ 
lected by virtue of any act of Congress applicable elsewhere. And 
second, that if a tax of that character were to be collected—indeed, 
if any fees of the sort were to be collected—they should be made re¬ 
turnable direct to the Treasury of the United States, and that that 
should be very clear, which it was not in the language of the pro¬ 
posal submitted by the judge, as I remember it. The matter was 
discussed as to whether- 

Mr. Rogers (interposing). On that point, Mr. Carr, the language 
of the proposal “ There shall be collected and paid into the Treasury 
of the United States a percentage,” and so forth. 

Mr. Carr. That is very clear there. It was not in the first draft of 
the proposition which I saw, and which I discussed with the judge 
to the best of my recollection. There was also another question, to 
answer your inquiry, precisely. We doubted whether that was a 
thing to put in this bill, and we did not submit it on that account. 
We thought that if it were a proper thing to put into a bill it would 
be better to put it into a bill revising the law with reference to the 
courts, and such a bill is already pending before Congress. 

Mr. Rogers. In other words, is the policy of the department to 
recommend as little new legislation as possible? 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 135 


Mr. Carr 1 es. The only reason for recommending this para- 
giapi in leterence to a commission is to get rid of what appears 
now to be a very conflicting procedure and one not calculated to 
serve the interests of the country in Shanghai. 

Mr. Rogers Is the item at the top of page 18 in italics subject to a 
point of order? 

Mr. Carr. I think not. 


Mr. Rogers. It may be subject to a point of order as far as the 
reference to June 30, 1920, is concerned, but it would not be subject 
to a point of order otherwise. 

Mr. Carr. It might be* subject to a point of order in so far as specific 
acts are concerned, although in its general nature it has already been 
included in the last bill. 

Mr. Rogers. The provision of the current act is, “ In settling the 
salaries for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1918, by the disbursing 
officers to the officials of the United States Court for China, the same 
rate of exchange used in the payment of salaries to consular officers 
in China for said fiscal year is hereby authorized and approved, these 
settlements to be made from the total amounts appropriated for 
salaries and court expenses for the fiscal years ending June 30, 1918, 
and June 30, 1919.” I think that language is identical with the 
language in italics on page 18, except the changes in dates. 

Mr. Carr. That is my understanding, in which case, I take it, it 
would not be subject to a point of order. 

Mr. Rogers. Not so far as June 30, 1919, is concerned. 

Mr. Connally. I want to ask you a question about the rate of ex¬ 
change. We have that proposition every year regarding the rate of 
exchange on silver in China. When money goes up in China, do not 
other things go down ? That is the experience in every other part of 
the world. Money is a relative thing; when money is high other 
things are cheap, and when money is cheap other things are high? 

Mr. Carr. In this situation in China, the medium of exchange in 
China is silver. A given amount of silver, ordinarily, in China will 
buy a given amount of any commodity. 

Mr. Connally. By weight, or otherwise? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. For instance, let us say, you are buying a bag of 
rice in Shanghai, a Chinese product, and it was worth, let us say, a 
Mexican dollar in 1914. But the value of silver in its relation to 
gold, which is not used in China for the settlement of accounts, has 
cdmpletely changed. The price has gone up, so that a Mexican 
dollar which you use in exchange in China would cost now approxi¬ 
mately twice the amount in gold which it cost in 1914. 

Mr. Connally. I understand that. That demand for silver and 
that value for silver is not restricted to China. Why does not that 
rise in the value of silver make silver worth twice as much every¬ 
where else in the world ? 

Mr. Carr. It is. 

Mr. Temple. The trouble is you can not buy as many silver dol¬ 
lars in gold, as formerly. 

Mr. Connally. I understand that. If silver is worth more than 
other things are worth, and other things are worth less, it looks to 
me as if it would buy more. 

Mr. Carr. You are dealing in China, a silver country, with pre¬ 
cisely the thing you were dealing with before 1914, and the only 





136 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


consideration you are met with in China is the increased cost of pro¬ 
ducing the article which you wish to purchase, but when you bring 
that cost into relationship with gold by selling the article to another 
country or buying something from another country on a gold basis, 
then you get into the difficulty growing out of the increased value 
of silver with relation to gold. It has more than doubled since 1914. 

Mr. Temple. Is not this another way of saying the same thing, 
that in this country we buy silver as a commodity because gold is 
the standard? In China silver is the standard and gold is the com- i 
modity. You trade a commodity with no standard of value for their 
standard, and our men can not buy as much salary; that is, they can 
not buy as many silver dollars for their gold salary as they could 
in 1914. 

Mr. Connally. Why will not that silver dollar buy twice as much 
goods as it would before? 

Mr. Temple. For the same reason that the gold dollar will buy 
twice as much in this country. 

Mr. Begg. Suppose my salary, for instance, in 1914 would get me 
one silver dollar. To-day it gets me 50 cents, one-half of a silver J 
dollar. In 1914 that silver dollar bought me a pound of rice. How 
much rice will it buy me to-day ? That is the proposition. 

Mr. Temple. Yes; a half dollar will buy half the amount of rice. 

Mr. Begg. Will it, or will it buy me still a pound of rice? 

Mr. Connally. That is it. 

Mr. Houghton. Are you not leaving out the question of the vol¬ 
ume of trade in the two countries? If you buy in China there.are 
going to be a certain amount of bills in this country. 

Mr. Begg. On that particular proposition there is just one ele¬ 
ment in adjusting a man’s salary: How much can he buy to-day 
out of his salary in comparison with what he could buy five years i 
ago? We are confronted constantly with the proposition to raise j 
salaries because of high prices. Have prices risen in China as in 
other places, or have prices relatively gone down, and can a man ; 
live on half as much ? 

Mr. Temple. To measure it in silver they have gone up. 

Mr. Begg. It is not a question of that; it is a question of pounds. 

Mr. Temple. You can not buy as many pounds in silver money. 

Mr. Begg. Is it a fact that their 50 cents in silver to-day, which 
represented a dollar in silver a year ago or 10 years ago, will still 
pay for a pound of rice ? 

Mr. Carr. No. In the first place, it costs more to-day to raise 
a pound of rice in China. 

Mr. Begg. I do not care about that. The question is whether he < 
can get a pound of rice for the same proportion of his salary check 
that he could get before? 

Mr. Carr. If a man is paid a salary of $3,000 in gold, before he can 
use it in China he has to get the equivalent of the gold in the silver i 
money of China. In getting the equivalent of that gold in China he 
gets half as much silver for the gold as he previously got. 

Mr. Begg. How much does he get in living items which he needs 
every day ? 

Mr. Carr. He gets half as many of the Mexican dollars in silver ] 
for the amount of gold which he has. Then he pays as many Mexi¬ 
can dollars for an article, and a little more than he paid in 1914. 






DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


137 


Mr. Begg. That answers my question. 

Mr. Carr. There is not any question at all about the depreciation 
of gold salaries in China and some of the other countries where 
silver is at a premium. 

Mr. Connally. I am in favor of fixing proper salaries in United 
States money all over the world, and if the salary is too low I would 
make it higher, and if the salary is too high I want to lower it. 
I am not in favor of this kind of a policy. If a consul who is 
living over there and getting $2,500 salary and can not live on it, 
let us give him whatever is necessary for him to live on, and let 
him look after the exchange. I do not believe in doing business 
in this way. It is not a fair test, because you only get the testi¬ 
mony of a lot of fellows in China who are out of joint, and you get 
the testimony of some other fellows in some other place who are 
out of joint, and we have to take (what they say about it. It 
seems to me that the best way to do is to add this difference brought 
about by the difference in the exchange rate to their salaries, and 
not to legislate in this way. You can not take the conditions that 
exist in one country and legislate to meet those conditions and then 
apply that to conditions in the rest of the world. 

Mr. Carr. If you will permit me a word there, I would like to 
say that within seven or eight months—I think it can be done in 
that time—the State Department will, I hope, have a system 
worked out by which we will do practically what Bradstreets and 
other agencies of that kind do, fix an index number for each coun¬ 
try, based upon a certain number of commodities entering into the 
cost of living there. I think we will be able to give you a pretty 
close mathematical rule for measuring the correctness of the amounts 
we ask you to appropriate. If you attempt to fix salaries in China 
and exchange goes wrong in Chile, you have two fixed salaries 
then, and if you want to transfer a man from China to Chile, you 
will have a man in China getting $5,000 a year according to the 
salary fixed by Congress, when he ought to have only $2,500 a 
year in Chile, and you will be wasting $2,500 a year; whereas, if 
in addition to a moderate salary you had a lump sum distributable 
upon the basis of a definite system such as I suggest, we will have a 
perfectly flexible method, one which has been adopted and which 
was used very greatly by Germany before the war and which will 
continue to be used by France, and by Italy, and which is admitted 
to be the most feasible and really the soundest method of arranging 
the salaries in the service where you are dealing with so many differ¬ 
ent conditions. 

(Whereupon, the committee adjourned to meet to-morrow, Tues¬ 
day, January 13,1920, at 10 o’clock a. m.) 


Committee on Foreign Affairs, 

House of Representatives, 
Tuesday , January 13 , 1920. 

DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL FOR 19 21. 

The Chairman. Mr. Carr, I believe you were down to line 17 on 
page 18 at the conclusion of the hearing yesterday. 





138 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


STATEMENT OF MR. WILBUR J. CARR, DIRECTOR OF THE 
CONSULAR SERVICE—Resumed. 

Mr. Carr. Mr. Chairman, if I may ask the indulgence of the ! 
committee for just a moment I would like to correct my testimony ; 
with regard to the first paragraph on page 18, which is with regard 
to the settlements of salaries of officers of the United States Court 
for China, expenses for two preceding years. That item originated 
in this way: There was formerly a post-allowance appropriation 
made for the officers in China, based upon exchange, but did not in¬ 
clude officers of the court for China. The instructions, however, 
were inadvertently conveyed to the officers of the court by the lega¬ 
tion, and the officers collected their post allowance according to the 
rule laid down for the diplomatic and consular officers. Their ac¬ 
counts were disallowed and they were held indebted to the Govern¬ 
ment for that amount of money. They came before Congress and 
asked for the insertion of this provision in the appropriation act for 
the settlement of those accounts out of the appropriation already 
made by Congress. The post-allowance expenses have since been ‘ex¬ 
tended to the court officers. This paragraph may very, well come , 
out of the bill. 

Mr. Browne. Which paragraph is that? 

Mr. Carr. The first paragraph on page 18. I am sorry I did not 
recall that yesterday when I testified before the committee: 

Mr. Moores. I move that it be taken out, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. We can do that when we mark up the bill, Mr. 
Moores. 

Mr. Moores. It can be done by consent. 

Mr. Rogers. Mr. Carr, there is just one more inquiry on that 
point that I would like to make. In the current post allowance, is 
a provision included for the officers for the court for China ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. Because, of course, it is a retroactive provision. 

Mr. Carr. Quite so. 

Mr. Rogers. For the fiscal year ending last June. 

Mr. Carr. Last June, but it was inserted in the current appropria¬ 
tion in moving the court for China. 

Mr. Rogers. In the acts for 1918 ? 

Mr. Carr. 1918-19. 

Mr. Rogers. Yes. 

Mr. Mason. What is the next item, Mr. Chairman ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes, sir; that is my recollection. 

INTERNATIONAL OFFICE OF PUBLIC HEALTH. 

The Chairman. Line 17, page 18, “ International Office of Public 
Health.” Have you anything to say with regard to that, Mr. 
Carr. 

Mr. Carr. Nothing other than that it is included with the first item 
on page 19 in this general statement. That is one of those interna¬ 
tional obligations which we incurred by virtue of a treaty and to 
which we are as a government expected to pay a certain member¬ 
ship fee. This is our membership fee in that organization, and it 
is a legal as well as a moral obligation on the Government. 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


139 


INTERNATIONAL SEISMOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION. 

Mr. Mason. What is that International Seismological Association? 

Mr. Carr. The International Seismological Association is an asso¬ 
ciation which is devoted to the study of earthquakes, and in regard to 
that, I might say, that in addition to that they have several other 
associations embraced in this bill, such as the Radiotelegraph Con¬ 
vention, on page 20, the International Geodetic Association, 
on page 22. All of these are scientific bodies, and some of them 
were called into existence on the initiative of the German scientific 
bodies. Their future is at the present moment being discussed by 
the International Research Council. It is an international scientific 
association, and met last August or September at Brussels. They 
took up the whole question of the disposition of the different scien¬ 
tific bureaus and they are not yet ready to present to the Govern¬ 
ment of the United States a concrete plan for the handling of those 
international bureaus, but it is probably going to be found neces¬ 
sary to have a general rearrangement of them. A number of these 
bureaus are, I think, specially mentioned as bureaus to be brought 
up under the League of Nations when that goes into effect, so that 
while the Government is legally bound to pay its quota, the disposi¬ 
tion of these international associations is likely to undergo a change 
in the very near future, when I presume the question of quota will 
also be revised, as well. 

That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

PECUNIARY CLAIMS COMMISSION. 

The Chairman. The next is on line 6, of page 19, arbitration of 
outstanding pecuniary claims between United States and Great 
Britain. 

Mr. Carr. That was brought into existence by virtue of a treaty, 
an agreement between the United States and Great Britain; and the 
only purpose of this small appropriation is to keep a very small 
number of people who have knowledge of the records of this claims 
commission and can therefore assist inquirers and others who may 
want to know or need to know what took place before the commis¬ 
sion. The work of the commission was suspended when the war 
broke out, and has not yet been resumed. Presumably it will be 
resumed at some time in the future. 

Mr. Rogers. We formerly expended $65,000 annually for this 
work. 

Mr. Carr. The only purpose of this is to hold together the records 
and the library, and have somebody there that is acquainted with 
them to examine the records for the benefit of those persons who have 
an interest in questions which have been before the commission. 

Mr. Houghton. This money will be expended during the coming 
year. 

PEACE PALACE AT THE HAGUE. 

The Chairman. The next is line 19, page 19, “ Peace palace at The 
Hague.” 

Mr. Carr. There is an obligation on the part of the Government 
to pay our part of the maintenance of this palace. 






140 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


INTERNATIONAL RADIOTELEGRAPHIC CONVENTION. 

The Chairman. The next is line 1, page 20, “ International Radio¬ 
telegraphic Convention.” 

Mr. Carr. That is also an international obligation based upon a 
treaty. 

Mr. Rogers. The next item, “ United States section of the Inter¬ 
national High Commission,” was very fully taken by Dr. Rowe. 

WATERWAYS TREATY, UNITED STATES AND GREAT BRITAIN. 

The Chairman. The next item is line 15, page 20, “Waterways 
treaty, United States and Great Britain: International Joint Com¬ 
mission, United States and Great Britain.” 

Mr. Carr. I think that'probably the committee will, as usual, wish 
to hear from the chairman or secretary of that commission rather 
than from me. There is no increase in that appropriation asked for. 

The Chairman. Who is chairman of that commission? 

Mr. Carr. I do not know who is chairman now. 1 will get in 
touch with them. They have offices in the Southern Building, and 
Mr. Kluttz is secretary of the commission. 

The Chairman. Will you have the chairman here to-morrow at 
10 o’clock? 

Mr. Carr. To-morrow morning at 10 o’clock; yes, sir. 

THIRD PAN AMERICAN SCIENTIFIC CONGRESS. 

The Chairman. The next is, “ Third Pan American Scientific 
Congress,” at line 17, page 21. 

Mr. Carr. That was covered by Dr. Rowe, as was also “ Fifth 
International Conference of American States,” at line 23. 

PAYMENT TO PANAMA. 

The Chairman. The next item is at line 12, page 22, “ Payment to 
the Government of Panama.” 

Mr. Carr. That is payment to the Government of Panama in pur¬ 
suance of our treaty of November 18, 1903, and is the payment we 
make for the privilege of constructing the Panama Canal. 

Mr. Mason. That is the ninth annual payment? 

GEODETIC ASSOCIATION. 

The Chairman. The next item is in line 18, on page 22, “ Interna¬ 
tional Geodetic Association for the measurement of the earth.” 

Mr. Carr. With regard to the International Geodetic Association^ 
the same may be said of that that was said a moment ago as to the 
seismological association. Its status is uncertain. It is an associa¬ 
tion orginally organized by some scientists of Prussia, and, there¬ 
fore, its continuance in the present form is now under consideration 
by. the International Research Council and by the International 
Scientific Congress, members of which met and discussed the sub¬ 
ject last August or September. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


141 


While the Government lias an obligation to keep up its observa¬ 
tory, which is located at Ukiah, Calif., until the disposition of the 
association can be determined, it is not known what the future of 
the association will be. It is believed, however, that we should con¬ 
tinue to support our observatory at Ukiah, Calif. 

Mr. Rogers. That observatory is appropriated for, I presume, 
through the sundry civil bill? 

Mr. Carr. My recollection is that this is all the appropriation 
i made for it. 

Mr. Rogers. I presumed that it costs very much more than $1,500 
a year to maintain the observatory. 

Mr. Carr. As a matter of fact, it costs a very little more than that. 

Mr. Mason. I presume that some of the expenses are paid by the 
Navy Department; I suppose the Navy officers are paid through the 
! regular naval appropriations. 

Mr. Carr. We used to pay $4,000 into the association. The asso¬ 
ciation in turn alloted to this country, or rather spent in this country 
more than that sum for the maintenance of two small observatories, 
one out at Ukiah, Calif., and the other, Gaithersburg, Md. When the 
war broke out, and the Allies went to war with Germany, the allied 
governments then undertook the support of the observatories in their 
territories themselves. Congress made a small appropriation—I for¬ 
get what it was—a very small appropriation bv which the United 
States undertook to maintain this observatory at Ukiah, Calif., and 
the one at Gaithersburg, Md. Afterwards the Gaithersburg ob¬ 
servatory ceased to be a charge on that appropriation and the ob¬ 
servatory at Ukiah is the only one that is kept up. 

Japan likewise took control over and supported the observatories 
located in her territory. That condition still exists. Now, you notice 
this appears only to pay for our membership in the association. 
We have our membership fee in the association and that, whatever* 
sum it is, that is spent for the maintenance of that observatory at 
Ukiah, is to be deducted from whatever quota is due from the United 
States. In other words, when the final account is rendered these 
amounts that we have spent on our observatories in this country will 
be deducted from the amount due from us under the general rules 
of the association. 

Our regular membership fee was $1,500, and then we began in 
1015 to spend $3,000. That was merely for the upkeep of the ob¬ 
servatory at Ukiah. So that, instead of there being an appropriation 
in some other bill, it appears that the amount spent there is really 
what is inserted in this bill—$1,500 a year. Does that answer your 
question ? 

Mr. Rogers. Yes, indeed. 

Mr. DrcKiNSON. Is there any particular reason why that item 
should not be cut out of the bill ? 

Mr. Carr. It is one of the bureaus we discussed yesterday. We 
are a member of this association and have been for a long time, 
along with a number of other governments. If we do not provide for 
our membership fee, we shall be asked for it some day and then have 
to provide for it in a deficiency act. So, it is just about as broad as 
it is long as I see it. In this case, we supported our own observatory 
on the theory that whatever the support cost us would be deducted 
from our regular quota, and I believe that we ought to continue to 



142 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


pay that until the disposition of that association in some other way 
is determined. 

INTERPARLIAMENTARY UNION. 

The Chairman. The next item is, “ Nineteenth Conference Inter¬ 
parliamentary Union.” I saw Mr. McKinley this morning and he 
said he would like to be heard in case there was any objection to that 
item. 

Mr. Moores. You know we invited them to meet here and they 
have not accepted. This provides for an appropriation of $40,000. 

Mr. Rogers. I am opposed to this item. 

Mr. Sabath. To what item? 

Mr. Rogers. To this item on page 23. I think I ought, in fairness, 
to say that, in case Mr. McKinley wants to be heard. 

Mr. Moores. I will ask that Dr. S. D. North be heard, and I desire 
to be heard, if there is any objection. 

(There was a roll call of the House.) 

The Chairman. I would like very much to continue, as Mr. Mon¬ 
dell and the Speaker are very anxious to get this bill on the floor. 
We could declare a recess of 30 minutes to go down and answer the 
roll call and then come back. I believe that we ought to finish with 
Mr. Carr to-day and the other items as soon as we can. 

Mr. Mason. I want to be heard on some of those items. 

The Chairman. We will be delighted to hear you. I think we 
had better take a recess for an hour so that we may get lunch., 

(Whereupon at 12.10 the committee took a recess.) 

after recess. 

The committee reassembled at the expiration of the recess. 

STATEMENT 0E MR. WILBUR J. CARR, DIRECTOR OF THE CON¬ 
SULAR SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF STATE—Resumed. 

Mr. Carr. 1 think we Lad just finished with the Interparlia¬ 
mentary Union, on page 23. 

The Chairman. That is a treaty obligation, is it not ? 

Mr. Carr. That is a treaty obligation, with the International Com¬ 
mission on Public and Private International Law. Work is supposed 
to be under way on that, and has been under way since, I think, 
about 1915; but, so far as I can find, none of the money has thus 
far been spent. 

salaries, consular service. 

The Chairman. The next is salaries in the Consular Service. 

Mr. Carr. For salaries in the Consular Service there is no increase 
requested. Inasmuch as last year Congress gave us a considerable 
increase, it was not thought that we should ask for an additional 
appropriation this year. Indeed., under the rule which the Cabinet 
adopted, we would have been unable to ask for an increase in the 
scale of salaries this year, because the decision was that no increases 
in salaries should be requested in the estimates. 

The Chairman. What were the appropriations for the item in 
1914 and 1915? 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 143 

Mr. Carr. The appropriations in 1914 and 1915 were $1,062,000 ; 
in 1916, $1,107,000; in 1917, $1,164,000; in 1918 and 1919, $1,233,500; 
and last year $1,974,500. 

Mr. Kogers. You are asking the same amount this year as last 
year ? 

Mr. Carr. We are asking the same amount this year as last. Not 
only do we need the number of men we have but the amount appro¬ 
priated for their salaries is really at a rate considerably lower than 
the purchasing value of those salaries in 1914. 

When I say that our salaries are really on a scale at present of 
$2,500 to $3,000 for a vice consul, of $3,000 to $8,000 for a consul 
and consul general, there being only two posts above $8,000, I think 
I can show easily that our salaries do not reach the standard set by 
the old salary scale of the British, by which they give their consuls 
from $3,893 to $4,866, or, with their representation allowance, $4,379 
to $6,812. Our consuls general receive from $5,500 to $8,000; there 
; being only two places above $8,000, I do not include them. The 
British, on the other hand, receive in salary and representative allow¬ 
ance $6,325 to $9,245, and, in addition to the representation allow¬ 
ance and the salary, they give, according to the needs of each post, 
a local allowance similar to our post allowance, the amount of which 
I do not happen to have. 

But you will see at a glance that their salaries, generally speaking, 
are considerably in advance of our salaries and their allowances are 
more numerous and more generous than our allowances. 

So that the point I am really making is that I think this salary 
scale of ours is an absolute minimum, and I think that Congress 
will have to be asked in the very near future to reconsider the salary 
scale and the total income of our officers abroad. 

Mr. Connally. When you ask for that $1,974,500, does the law 
i fix the compensation of consuls? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Connally. Or does it merely fix the classifications at which 
you have power to appoint ? 

Mr. Carr. The law says that there shall be consuls general at 
$12,000, $8,000, $6,000, $5,500, and $4,500, and consuls at $8,000, 
$6,000, $5,000, $4,000, $3,500, $3,000, $2,500, and $2,000. 

Mr. Connally. Does the act say how many there shall be of each 
class ? 

Mr. Carr. No ; the act does not provide that. 

Mr. Connally. It leaves that up to the State Department; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Carr. It leaves it to the State Department to say how many 
shall be in each class. But, understand, the State Department’s 
action on that matter is governed by several considerations. In the 
first place, it must maintain a relationship between the different 
classes which will afford a safe basis of promotion from a lower 
class to a higher class; that is to say, you can not have a great many 
men in a higher class and only a few men in a lower class, because 
then you .will not have any satisfactory opportunity for selection 
when von come to promotion. On the other hand, no promotion of 
any officer can be made without the advice and consent of the Sen¬ 
ate ; so that at least one House of Congress always has absolute con¬ 
trol of the number of men who shall be in each class. 



144 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Connallv. Do you mean that every time a man is raised 
from class 2 to class 1 he has to be reappointed and confirmed by the 
Senate ? 

Mr. Carr. He has to be reappointed and confirmed by the Senate, 
exactly as in the case of Army and Navy officers. 

Mr. Rogers. And that is true of the secretaries also ? 

Mr. Carr. That is true of secretaries of legations and embassies. 
So that Congress has at all times, through the Senate, complete con¬ 
trol of every step that is taken in the matter of promotion and of 
the regulation of the number of men in each class; and the sal¬ 
aries of the various classes are all fixed by law, and the total ap¬ 
propriation is limited by Congress. While giving the Executive 
a certain amount of latitude in readjusting classes, as was found 
desirable last year, when on the recommendation of the Secretary of 
State a certain increase in the appropriation was made, with the 
distinct understanding that we should just omit class 5 of consuls 
general, at $4,500, and raise the minimum of that office to $5,500; 
that we should omit the eighth and ninth grades of consuls, $2,500 
and $2,000, and make the entrance to the service $3,000 or $3,500, 
Congress made the appropriation, fixed the limit upon the appropria¬ 
tion, and it then rested with the Executive and the Senate to make 
that readjustment; and that is a very much more satisfactory way. 
It is really a much more businesslike way than to specify in the leg¬ 
islation the number of men in each class, thus making a hard-and-fast 
rule over a considerable period of time and taking up the time of 
Congress through a course of hearings for the purpose of getting two 
or three more in one class and two or three less in another class. 

Mr. Rogers. May I ask two or three questions here, Mr. Chair¬ 
man? 

The Chairman. Certainly. 

Mr. Rogers. The law provides that every consul general, consul, 
vice consul, and wherever practicable, every consular agent shall be 
an American citizen. That, of course, is an absolute mandate, so far 
as the consuls general, consuls, and vice consuls are concerned. Are 
there any exceptions now employed by the department to that man¬ 
date? 

Mr. Carr. Consuls general, consuls, and vice consuls ? Every con¬ 
sul general, consul, and vice consul in the service is an American 
citizen; there are no exceptions. 

Mr. Rogers. What is the proportion of citizens to noncitizens 
among consular agents? 

Mr. Carr. The total number of consular agents who are American 
citizens is 61; the total number of foreigners is 47. And I may say 
there that one of the purposes for which you appropriated last year 
a sum for approximately, 150 vice consuls of career, was for the pur¬ 
pose of replacing those foreign consular agents. We are, unfortu¬ 
nately, not very far along in that, because we have not been able to 
get a very large number of career vice consuls thus far. We are 
having an examination again on the 19th of this month for consuls 
and vice consuls, and our ultimate aim is to replace the majority, if 
not all, of these consular agents who are foreigners with vice consuls 
of career. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 145 

Mr. Rogers. Well, of course, I am very thoroughly in sympathy 
with the Americanization movement in the department, as you know 
from experience. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. At the same time, there are consular agents of the 
United States at certain places that I can—I recall, like Bloemfon¬ 
tein, South Africa, and Oaxaco, Mexico, where they get only $2.50, 
or $5, or $10 a year as their compensation. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. And members of the committee will recall that they 
get one-half of the fees taken in; and I think at Bloemfontein, for 
example, the annual fees the last time I looked it up amounted to 
$5, so that the compensation of the consular agent there was $2.50; 
and it would be clearly uneconomical and undesirable, at this stage, 
at least, to impose a hard-and-fast rule on the State Department to 
supply American citizens at minute and unimportant places like 
that. / • 

Mr. Carr. I frankly think that there are places, and there may be 
found to be a considerable number of places from time to time, where 
it is really not worth while to send a salaried American and to pay 
all the expenses of running an office, when you can get the little 
amount of work—a little notarial work and perhaps a few invoices 
signed—done by a business man there who will do it for the small 
proportion of the fees which he receives, and be glad to represent 
the. United States in that humble capacity. 

That, however, has to be watched ydth a good deal of care. Occa¬ 
sionally, you will find that you can get from a local business man, 
by giving him the designation, for instance, of consular agent, a very 
considerable service for the United States Government, merely be¬ 
cause he is honored by the designation, and he will go out of his 
way, and has means with which to go out of his way, to serve the 
interests of the United States. But you can not lay out a hard-and- 
fast rule that that is always a good thing to do. 

Mr. Rogers. You expect, however, to increase the 61 Americans 
and decrease the 47 foreigners within the next fiscal year quite mate¬ 
rially, I gather? 

Mr. Carr. Yes; we hope to get from the next examination an ad¬ 
ditional number of vice consuls, in which case we hope to supplant 
a number of these foreign consular agents with men of that descrip¬ 
tion. 

Mr. Rogers. I think the other figures which you have on that 
statement in vour hand would be of interest to the committee. 

Mr. Carr. I will say that consular agents are paid by one-half 
the fees they collect, provided that their total compensation shall in 
no case exceed $1,000 in any fiscal year. 

Twenty-eight of these agents—18 Americans and 10 foreigners— 
get compensation ranging from $500 to $1,000 a year. Eighty of 
them, 43 Americans and 37 foreigners, get compensation ranging 
from nothing to $500 a year. So that, out of the total number of 
consular agents, 108, there are only 28 who receive a compensation 
in excess of $500 a year. 

Mr. Conn a lly. You have no consul at Luxemburg, have you? 
You have a consular agent there, have you not? 

161477—20-10 





146 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Carr. We have none now; we had a consular agent there who 
was a native of Luxemburg. 

Mr. Conn ally. You say you have none there now ? 

Mr. Carr. We have none now. 

Mr. Connally. You did have one last year, did you not? 

Mr. Carr. We did have one there until about the middle of the 
war period, I believe. 

Mr. Connally. Well, I was over there last spring, and I thought 
we met the consular agent. 

Mr. Carr. A man of the name of Lerulle used to be consular agent 
there. 

Mr. Connally. I thought he was still acting; he was a citizen of 
Luxemburg; he had been to the United States a number of times. 

Mr. Carr. He is no longer consular agent; I have forgotten 
whether he died or resigned. 

Mr. Rogers. Mr. Carr, I received yesterday from the Department 
of Commerce one of their daily series of Commerce Reports. This 
particular one is for December 20, and is an article on Finland; and 
the author is said in the article to be “Diplomatic Commissioner 
Thorn well Haynes, Helsingfors, Finland.” It is dated September 
23, 1919. That was rather a new species of nomenclature to me, and 
I wondered how that title had been created. 

Mr. Carr. I do not think the State Department is acquainted with 
the title of “ diplomatic commissioner.” Mr. Haynes has, however, 
the title of American commissioner; it really means about the same 
thing. Mr. Haynes was sent to‘Finland as our consul before—I was 
going to say before the recognition of the Government of Finland; 
I am not so sure about that. But later, when the United States Gov¬ 
ernment recognized the independence of Finland and the establish¬ 
ment of the republic, it had to be represented in some official capacity; 
and it had no appropriation for the salary of a minister; and it gave 
Mr. Haynes the title of commissioner. He has been acting as com¬ 
missioner ever since, and still is acting, although there is at present 
a charge d’affaires on the way to Helsingfors to take the place of Mr. 
Haynes. 

Mr. Rogers. Is American commissioner a diplomatic title? 

Mr. Carr. American commissioner is not a diplomatic title, but 
is a title used where this Government has not any official or reg¬ 
ular relations with a so-called de facto government, but needs a rep¬ 
resentative there. 

Mr. Rogers. From what funds is a diplomatic commissioner paid? 

Mr. Carr. Mr. Haynes draws his consular salary, plus an allow¬ 
ance made from the emergency fund for such extraordinary ex¬ 
penses as were to be incurred by maintaining an establishment as 
commissioner. 

Mr. Rogers. Well, we recognized Finland, as I recall, over a year 
ago, did we not? 

Mr. Carr. Yes, I think so. 

Mr. Rogers. My recollection is that it was in July, 1918; but Dr. 
Temple may remember that date better than I do. 

Mr. Temple. No, I do not remember it. 

The Chairman. I think it was in November. The order of recog¬ 
nition was Finland, Poland, and Czechoslovakia ; and Poland was in 
January. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 147 

Mr. Rogers. It seems to me anomalous that as late as about the 
1 penses as were to be incurred by maintaining an establishment as 
| commissioner. 

Mr. Carr. We are still represented by a copimissioner. The Sec¬ 
retary has asked Congress to provide the salary) of a minister, so 
that a regularly accredited minister might be sent. The first recom¬ 
mendation was certainly in last June, or thereabouts. Congress did 
not provide for a minister; and now the Secretary has pending be¬ 
fore the Appropriations Committee a request for salary of a minis¬ 
ter from the 1st of February, or for the remainder of this fiscal year, 
and this committee has before it the recommendation for salary of 
the minister from the 1st of next July—the next fiscal year. 

Mr. Temple. Have we not the same kind of representation in Hun¬ 
gary,* or on the way there ? 

Mr. Carr. We have the same kind of representation on the way 
to Hungary. We have the same kind of representation in Vienna; 
we have the same kind of representation in Turkey, and w r ere to 
have the same kind of representation in Berlin, although I think our 
commissioner has not reached there. 

Mr. Temple. And the commissioner has with him attaches? 

Mr. Carr. The commissioner has a staff of attaches and clerks; in 
Turkey they amount to a considerable number; he has two or three 
consuls unofficially with him. 

Mr. Temple. It amounts, therefore, to an informal legation? 

Mr. Carr. An informal legation, without any official diplomatic 
status, in the ordinary sense. 

Mr. Rogers. What is the total salary that Mr. Haynes receives? 

Mr. Carr. 11 think about $10,000 or $12,000. 

Mr. Rogers. In other words, he is treated by the department on 
the financial scale of a minister? • 

Mr. Carr. Yes, sir; that is necessary; otherwise his influence there 
would be neutralized; he has to maintain an establishment at least 
somewhat on a par with that of a full minister and the establish¬ 
ments maintained by other governments; otherwise there would be 
no occasion to have him there at all; he could not be useful. 

Mr. Temple. Underlying that, may I ask on what basis Hungary 
and Austria are recognized as separate? Have either of them been 
completely recognized by this Government? 

m. Carr. No. 

Mr. Temple. It is just to meet an actual situation that is some¬ 
what anomalous? 

Mr. Carr. To meet an actual situation in which it is necessary to 
have some kind of informal representation in those two places, for 
the protection of American interests and for the gathering of infor¬ 
mation—undoubtedly correct information—about what is happening 
in those two countries. 

Mr. Temple. And the situation there is anomalous? 

Mr. Carr. The situation there is anomalous. 

Mr. Temple. There is no normal standing? 

Mr. Carr. The situation all over Europe is anomalous; and the 
action is not to be determined by any prewar principle of interna¬ 
tional law. In Turkey we have a high commissioner who is an 
admiral; we have a commissioner who was formerly American consul 
general, and we have several consular officers who do not function 






148 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

as consular officers, but are unofficial assistants to the high commis¬ 
sioner and the commissioner. It is very necessary that those officials 
be there as observers and workers in cooperation with the representa¬ 
tives of the allied Governments at those places, for the protection of 
legitimate American interests. 

Mr. Temple. The relations between this country and Turkey have 
not been formally restored, have they? 

Mr. Carr. No, sir. 

Mr. Temple. And we never had any relations with Hungary as 
separate from Austria? 

Mr. Carr. No, sir. 

The Chairman. What is the range of salary of consuls general? 

Mr. Carr. At present, under the new arrangement authorized by 
Congress last year, $5,500, $6,000, $8,000, and $12,000. 

The Chairman. What is the range for consuls? I just want the 
maximum and minimum. 

Mr. Carr. Under the new arrangement, $3,000 to $8,000, although 
we expect to appoint no more $6,000 and $8,000 consuls; we have 
only two at those salaries now. 

The Chairman. Of vice consul? 

Mr. Carr. Twenty-five hundred to three thousand dollars. Vice 
consul of career I should mention there, in order to distinguish that 
officer from the unclassified vice consul, who is really a clerk, plus 
the title of vice consul. N 

Mr. Rogers. With reference to the appropriation for salaries of 
seven consular inspectors, at $5,000 each, I think until the last act 
there were only five consular inspectors, and we increased the number 
to seven a year ago? 

Mr. Carr. Yes; the seven have not been appointed, however. 

Mr. Rogers. I understood they had not. 

Mr. Carr. No; because in this shifting from a war to a peace 
condition, we have needed our men for line work, and we have not 
been able thus far to appoint the other two. 

Mr. Rogers. Those men inspect not only consulates, but consulates 
general, do they not? 

Mr. Carr. They inspect consulates general, consulates, vice consuls 
and consular agents. 

Mr. Rogers. It has always struck me as rather anomalous that a 
consular inspector, who should be as good a man as there is in the 
service, I suppose, and whose function it is to go in a supervisory 
capacity into a consulate general or a consulate, and who may, under 
the law, take over a consulate general or a consulate if he finds that 
things are going wrong—that under those circumstances a consular 
inspector should receive a materially lower salary than a good many 
of the men whom he supervises and inspects. I have been rather 
surprised that the department has never recommended an increase in 
that particular 'item. 

Mr. Houghton. What is the duty of supervision ? 

Mr. Carr. I beg your nardon? 

' Mr. Houghton. What does that supervision mean? Is it audit¬ 
ing? 

Mr. Carr. The inspector visits each office, and he goes through it 
and makes a detailed report upon it, from the standpoint of the 
correctness of its accounts; the judgment displayed in the handling 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


149 


of the money; the manner in which the office is conducted in other 
respects; the conduct and standing of the officer and his staff; the 
sufficiency of the staff; the kind of location which the office has; its 
adequacy; and all the other details that enter into the proper conduct 
of an office. He sends a report of the facts, plus his recommenda¬ 
tions as to improvements that might be made, even to the extent of 
the discontinuance of the office altogether, or the changing of its 
grade—the raising of it to some higher grade or reducing it to a 
lesser grade. 

Mr. Houghton. He really performs an executive rather than an 
auditing function? 

Mr. Carr. He is both an executive and an auditor. He performs 
exactly the function, in a way, that I, as director of the service, 
would perform if I were to go to France and look over the offices 
there from the standpoint of general administration of the service. 
Those inspectors work under the immediate direction of the Secre¬ 
tary of State, acting through the Director of the Consular Serivce. 

Mr. Rogers. The law requires, does it not, that every consulate 
general, consulate, and vice consulate shall be inspected at least as 
often as once in two years? 

Mr. Carr. At least once in two years; but I am sorry to say that 
the law has been violated for a number of years past, because of 
the physical impossibility with five inspectors of covering the 
ground; especially in the last five years, with transportation dis¬ 
turbed, it, would have been a hopeless task to inspect them all every 
two years. 

Mr. Rogers. How often, on the average, are the more remote con¬ 
sular offices now inspected? 

Mr. Carr. Some of them, a comparatively small group, I think, 
probably not oftener than once in four years. 

Mr. Rogers. Do you believe that, with normal transportation now 
a likelihood, and with seven inspectors also now a likelihood, you 
will be able to comply with the law hereafter? 

Mr. Carr. I hope to; although the service has naturally been ex¬ 
panded considerably; and by the time we get through with present 
expansion, we shall have a considerably increased number of offices, 
and it will take seven men their full time, and they will have a 
pretty difficult task to make the rounds once in every two years with 
certainty. 

The task of inspection is one of the most difficult that falls to the 
lot of any member of the Consular Service; an inspector is on the 
way all the time for, let us say, the entire two years, with practically 
no vacation, going from one place to another, writing reports on 
board steamer or on railway trains, under constant pressure, staying 
up late at night, working all day Sundays, eating all kinds of food, and 
working under all kinds of conditions; and it requires really a man 
of very strong physique, and a man who is willipg to undergo very 
great hardship, to say nothing of experience, sound judgment, and 
constructive ability, to do the inspection work over any considerable 
period of time. 

Mr. Rogers. I have known one or two of those men rather inti¬ 
mately; and I think they lead about the worst dog’s life" of anybody 
in the Government service. There is one gentleman, especially, who 
was in charge of the Far East and of Africa, and most of Asia; and 



150 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

lie was leading the life of a nomad during the war, which it is diffi¬ 
cult to appreciate; he traveled, I think, 80,000 miles in one year 
trying to make his inspection tour. 

Mr. Carr. I would like to put in the record just this statement— 
not that this committee does not know it already, but it might be 
of interest to some one else. Laymen might very well think that a 
position which paid in salary $5,000 a year and actual and necessary 
traveling expenses while the incumbent was on duty, and the duties 
of which led the incumbent all over the world, might be a most at¬ 
tractive sort of thing—indeed, might be in the nature of a junket. 
But that is so far from being the case that the department has to 
bring, you might say, pressure to bear upon officers fit for the work 
to induce them to accept appointment to inspectorships, instead of 
having a number of applicants for those positions. 

Mr. Rogers. I should like to refer back a moment, Mr. Carr, to 
that item on the consular court of China, page 18 of the committee 
draft, which you said this morning might go out, as far as you 
could see. 

That item is in settlement of salaries for the fiscal year ending 
June 30, 1919. I have here the appropriation act for the fiscal year 
ending June 30, 1919; and I find that in that act the paragraph on 
post allowances was in the old form, which did not include officers 
of the United States court for China, although it did include diplo¬ 
matic and consular officers in China; but it is my understanding 
that the comptroller ruled that, under that post-allowance para¬ 
graph in the form in which it appeared in that act, officers of the 
United States court for China were not authorized to receive post 
allowances, or the benefits of exchange. Therefore, it occurred to 
me that possibly you were mistaken in asking the elimination of that 
paragraph. 

Mr. Carr. The sundry civil act for the year ended June 30, 1919, 
contained an appropriation for post allowances for the officers of 
the court for China. 

Mr. Newton. I notice the appropriation for consuls appears to be 
the same as for the preceding year; is that correct ? 

Mr. Carr. The same as the current year; yes. 

Mr. Newton. I was under the impression that a request had been 
made for increasing the salaries of the vice consuls and some of the 
lower-grade consuls? 

Mr. Carr. That was last year. 

Mr. Newton. Was not any request for increase made this year, 
at all? 

Mr. Carr. No. 

Mr. Newton. The increases were all on the ambassadors and min¬ 
isters, were they ? 

Mr. Rogers. And secretaries. 

Mr. Newton. That may be what I had in mind. 

Mr. Carr. We were unable to make a request for changes in the 
compensation of consular offices this year, because the administra¬ 
tion decided that no increases in salaries should be recommended in 
the estimates this year; and the distinction that the Secretary of 
State made was that, inasmuch as he had recommended the increases 
in salaries of ambassadors, ministers, and secretaries last year, he 
was justified in merely repeating that as last year’s estimate, but that 
he could not make any new increases this year. 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 151 

Mr. Newton. Yes; I understand. 

Mr. Rogers. Before you pass to the next item, may I ask you along 
one other line? You spoke, when dealing with the paragraph con¬ 
cerning secretaries, of the fact that certain secretaries had already 
resigned and more were on the point of resigning, both because of 
the lack of adequate salary and because of the lack of an outlook? 

Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. How is it in that respect with reference to the Con¬ 
sular Service; of course, the Government salaries are not comparable 
with those of business corporations; the United States is not able to 
compete with the salaries which the large international business 
corporations are able to offer the best men in the Consular Service; 
are you getting resignations on that ground, or on other grounds; 
or, if not, do you fear resignations on that ground or on other 
grounds ? 

Mr. Carr. We are getting resignations on that ground; and it is 
astonishing that we have not had more of them than we have. I 
know, for instance, that the head of one of the largest banking 
groups in New York interested in foreign banking last year visited 
various places in Europe and offered to one after another of our 
officers salaries ranging anywhere from twice to three times the 
amount the Government was paying them. Some officers—a few 
officers—resigned and went with him; others stayed and are staying 
with us, I think, with the sole thought that the Consular Service 
and the foreign service in general is going to be improved and made 
more desirable for men of high capacity. 

To give you just a glimpse of the temptations which induce men 
to leave our service, I can recall one case where a young man en¬ 
tered our service about two years ago at $2,500. He was sent to 
Buenos Aires, and he was given a post allowance of $1,500 to enable 
him to live there. He was there altogether about a year and a half. 
This summer he came back and said that he would be obliged to 
leave the service, because he had had a business offer which he 
could not afford to decline; the business offer was $10,500 and ex¬ 
penses. 

Another officer getting $4,000 and a post allowance resigned last 
week to enter the employ of one of the big corporations of this 
country. Another officer, getting $3,000 and a post allowance of 
$500, resigned to take a position in South America at $8,000, or 
thereabouts. Another officer getting $5,000 resigned to accept a pri¬ 
vate engagement; I do not know just how much he is getting now. 
Another officer getting a salary of $2,500, plus a post allowance of 
$1,100, making a total of $3,600, resigned and accepted an offer of 
$8,000 with a business firm in New York. 

I have before me the names of 16 officers who have left the service 
in the last 12 months, at salaries, so far as I know them, of any¬ 
where from twice to three times the amount the Government paid 
them. 

Mr. Dickinson. Did this condition exist prior to the war? 

• Mr. Carr. No; not to any great extent. 

Mr. Dickinson. Well, do you not think that the condition will 
be relieved, or will be much better, after the war wave subsides ? 

Mr. Carr. The condition will not be better, I think, for this rea¬ 
son : That none of us can foresee the prices going back to anywhere 


152 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

near the 1914 normal, and our salaries in the Consular Service were 
generally regarded as inadequate in 1914, before the war began. 

Now, we have gone on to a very much higher scale of living, a 
more expensive scale 'of living. The temptations in the way of 
officers are several times as great as they were in 1914, because we 
have great banking concerns extending their banking facilities all 
over the world; we have great corporations engaging in foreign 
trade, or establishing business in foreign countries, and the Consular 
Service is one of the few places where men with a knowledge of 
foreign languages and foreign experience are to be found; and with 
salaries considerably below the standard of 1914 in purchasing ca¬ 
pacity, and the demands multiplied many times for men of that 
character, we will be exceedingly lucky if we retain the men that 
we have. 

Mr. Dickinson. Does not the department appreciate that practi¬ 
cally all of those arguments apply to nearly every class of salaried 
men that you can name in existence at the present time? 

Mr. Carr. Yes, sir; the department appreciates that; but the men 
of the Consular Service are men who have had a special training and 
experience, and that experience ought to be utilized for the general 
public—for the small c ^porter as well as the large one—and men 
ought not to be tempted away from the service of the public into the 
exclusive service of a few large corporations, perhaps, when a small 
amount of money which would enable them to live, plus the at¬ 
tractiveness of the consular profession, will hold them. 

Mr. Dickinson. You would not want to be understood as imply¬ 
ing here that the large majority of those well-qualified men par¬ 
ticularly adapted to that foreign service are in the Consular Service, 
would you? 

Mr. Carr. A large majority of them? 

Mr. Dickinson. Yes. 

Mr. Carr. I do not know of any particular organization which 
brings together such a large number of men with the kind of quali¬ 
fications which the great corporations in this country engaged in 
international trade want at this time. 

Mr. Dickinson. Many institutions have courses in foreign bank¬ 
ing, where practically these same qualifications are required for 
graduation, have they not? 

Mr. Carr. That is perfectly true; but the qualities which consular 
officers possess are not acquired in a school of foreign banking. 

Mr. Mason. They come from experience; is that the idea? 

Mr. Carr. They are qualifications derived from experience, plus 
acquaintance and contacts with men and conditions abroad; and you 
can not acquire those in a school of foreign banking or foreign trade. 
Those are the qualities, by the way, that great business corporations 
pay large salaries for. For instance, I have one man in the Con¬ 
sular Service who gets a salary of $5,000 a year, and he at the present 
time has offers from three of the great financial organizations in 
New York—standing offers—of $18,000 a year and expenses. He is 
an unmarried man who likes our service; he so far has not yielded 
to the temptation. J 

Mr. Smith of Illinois. The same man without the experience in 
the consular service would not be worth $18,000, would he? 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


153 


Mr. Carr. The same man without the experience in the Consular 
Service might have some difficulty in getting $5,000. 

Mr. Smith of Illinois. Yes. 

Mr. Carr. He would not get $5,000 starting where he did when 
he first began with us. 

The Chairman. Are there any further questions? 


CONSULAR ASSISTANTS, 


Mr. Rogers. Are those 40 consular assistants all American cit¬ 
izens ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes; and they are a very useful body of men; some of 
them have grown up into as useful and capable men as we have in 
the service. This particular corps appeals to a younger body of men 
than the position of vice consul or consul; a young man who would 
be suitable for consular assistant would be a young man right out of 
college, say, without much experience elsewhere; occasionally that 
is different; but that applies to the general run of them. And I 
think the corps ought to continue, and especially if Congress should 
consider seriously later on some such provision as that embraced 
in the bill introduced by Mr. Rogers for the reform of the service 
and the appointment of consular pupils, in which case this provision* 
and that of consular pupils, might be coordinated in some respect. 

Mr. Rogers. Are these men appointed after examination ? 

Mr. Carr. All career men in the service, including consular assist¬ 
ants, are appointed after examination, the nature of the examination 
being published in a pamphlet, copies of which I can furnish the 
committee, giving all the details. 

Mr. Smith of Illinois. Is it purely a civil-service examination? 

Mr. Carr. It is purely a civil-service examination, in a sense, with 
I one very important difference: That ordinarily we view the civil- 
service examination from the standpoint of regarding it as a written 
examination. The consular-service examination is entirely different 
| from that. One part of the test consists of a written examination* 

I covering the subjects of modern languages—one modern language, at 
, least; modern history; consitutional history and government of the 
United States; political economy: arithmetic; commercial geography/ 
and commerce and resources of the United States, with reference to 
;; export trade; international law, maritime law and commercial law— 
the elements of those subjects. That usually requires a couple of days 
1 before the examining board in answering the written questions. 

Then each candidate is brought personally before the board of ex¬ 
aminers and is looked over and quizzed on his education, his experi- 
I ence, and his interests; the board endeavors to determine what 
,sort of a personality he has—what his personal appearance is; the 
i sort of man he is; his alertness and other personal qualities; what sort 
i of experience he has had; and what kind of business ability he may 
possess, so far as that can be determined by a personal examination of 
that sort. That oral examination is very much the kind of thing 
| which the head of any business house would make in looking over a 
i prospective employee. 

Mr. Newton. Who constitutes that board, Mr. Carr? 

Mr. Carr. The consular board is made up of the Third Assistant 
Secretary of State, the Director of the Consular Service; the chief 





154 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


of the Consular Bureau, and the chief examiner of the Civil Service 
Commission, or his representative. 

Mr. Newton. How much credit do you give for the written exam¬ 
ination, and how much for the oral one ? 

Mr. Carr. We take an average of the two; we add the results of 
the two examinations and divide that by two. Then the names are 
put on the eligible list in the order of their passing mark, and they 
are drawn from the eligible list in the order of their standing on the 
list. 

Mr. Newton. And the promotions in the consular service, clear up 
to the grade of consul general—are they made through a merit sys¬ 
tem, or can a man be appointed consul general without any previous 
experience ? 

Mr. Carr. All men must enter the consular service in the lower 
grades. Vice consuls enter, according to the rules, in the $2,500 
grade, getting their promotion on merit to $2,750, and then to $3,000; 
and they are then eligible to promotion to a $3,500 consulship. Full 
consuls enter in the grades of $3,000 or $3,500, and must win 
their promotions on the basis of merit to a higher grade. The 
whole basis of promotion is that of merit, and not of seniority; 
it is a selective system, in other words, and seniority, so far as we are 
able to work it out, counts only when the merits are relatively equal. 

Mr. Newton. And then promotions to consul general come only 
from the consuls, do they? 

Mr. Carr. Only from the consuls. The whole theory of it is 
that a man should enter at the bottom and win hjs way to the top 
by meritorious service, and not by other considerations; and that 
has been carried out in a very accurate and satisfactory way. 

Mr. Newton. How are promotions made as to ministers and other 
members of the diplomatic force? 

Mr. Carr. The secretaries in the Diplomatic Service are pro¬ 
moted in practically the same manner as consuls are promoted, up 
to the grade of secretary at $3,000, or counsellor. But there is no 
regular mode of promoting secretaries from the grade of counsellor 
to the grade of minister; occasionally that is done, but unfortunately, 
not very often. 

Mr. Newton. So that most of the ambassadors and ministers are 
taken from other walks of life? There are no promotions up to 
those grades? 

Mr. Carr. That is correct. I would like to express the personal 
opinion—and I think I may say it for the department as well—that | 
there will never be a satisfactory solution of the problem of secre- : 
taries in the Diplomatic Service until there is a definite recognition 
of the principle of promotion of secretaries to the grade of minister.! 
Otherwise, you will never get in the grade of secretary the kind of 
men that we ought to attract to the Diplomatic Service. 

There are two things there to be looked after: One is promotion, 
which is of fundamental importance; the other is salary, which is 
of very great importance. 

We can not possibly build a diplomatic service that will protect 
the interests of the country so long as we pay salaries of $1,500 to 
$3,000, and offer no promotion above $3,000; it can not be done. 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


155 


POST ALLOWANCE. 

Mr. Rogers. Now, let us proceed to the post allowance item. 

Mr. Carr. The item beginning on page 25, line 3, post allowances, 
to diplomatic and consular officers, is one in which the Secretary of 
State recommends an increase from $600,000 to $800,000. Last year, 
although $800,000 was recommended, only $700,000 was appropri¬ 
ated. One hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars of that went 
to the Diplomatic Service; $100,000 of it went to the officers in China, 
to take care of the difference in exchange that we were speaking 
about this morning; $425,000 of it went to the consular officers. 

But this year, since Congress reduced the appropriation from 
$700,000 to $600,000, we have had to reduce the allotment for the 
Diplomatic Service from $175,000 to $150,000; we have had to in¬ 
crease the allotment to the officers in China from $100,000 to $160,000; 
and it leaves only $290,000, instead of $425,000, remaining for the 
Consular Service. 

The situation will be modified to some extent, however, by the 
rate of exchange now prevailing in Europe, and will cause the basic 
allowance as made last year to be modified by the more favorable 
exchange rate prevailing in Europe; but it will still leave us with 
a general reduction to all of the officers in the Diplomatic and Con- 
I sular Services, except those officers in China, and there there has been 
no increase actually; they do not get any more Chinese dollars with 
which to pay their expenses than they were getting last year, 
although it costs in gold $60,000 more than it did last year to keep 
them on the same compensation basis as in 1914, with no allowance 
for increased cost of commodities. 

Mr. Rogers. You pay them on our standard in their money? 

Mr. Carr. We have to pay them on our standard, the standard 
fixed by Congress, converted into their money; and consequently, 
where we could do that last year with $100,000, it is estimated that 
we will not able to do it this year with less than $160,000. 

So that there is not the slightest question in my mind that on this 
item of post allowances turns the whole matter of whether we are 
going to be able to retain our service, both Diplomatic and Consu¬ 
lar—I mean both secretaries and consuls—or not. 

I have a number of complaints from various secretaries in the 
service, one or two of which I should like to read to you, to give you 
a picture of the situation from the standpoint of the men in the 
field. 

A communication from one of our officers, one of the best men in 
the Diplomatic Service, a man to whom if you were conducting an 
international business of magnitude, you would not hesitate to pay 
$18,000 or $20,000 a year, at least, and whom you would think you 
were getting very cheaply, is very much in point. His letter has to do 
with the present* situation in which our Diplomatic Service, so far as 
the secretaries are concerned, finds itself. He says: 

It has to do with the present situation in which our diplomatic Service, as 
far as the secretaries are concerned, finds itself; it is accentuated by a most 
irritating and inexplicable phase that has just arisen in the unjustifiable re¬ 
duction in our post allowances; it is actuated by my desire to set forth the 
grievances, as I see them, not only of myself but of every single American 
diplomatic colleague with whom I have spoken; and, in my opinion, it is 
justified by the fact that unless some assurance and relief is immediately forth- 





156 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


coming, my fond hopes of remaining in a service which I love with all my heart 
and in which I had hitherto hoped to remain as long as I might be of use to 
my country must be unfulfilled. I shall, in fact, find myself forced—with many 
others—to relinquish it for some other profession, far less attractive in every 
way except for the fact that it will afford a living wage on which I can support 
myself and my family. And I beg you in all sincerity to believe that in this 
opinion I stand by no means alone. 

In Petrograd my post allowance was $3,100; here my post allowance for the 
first fiscal year was at the rate of $3,000; by the department’s instruction of 
October 11. 1919, it is set for the current year at $2,250. * * * Conservative 
British official estimates place the expenses of living at 125 to 135 per cent 
above normal. Surely this is strange recognition of satisfactory service—if it 
be satisfactory—to find one’s remuneration decreasing in proportion to one’s 
promotion and the increased expenses which are incumbent thereon ! When 
I accepted this post, which I did with great appreciation and satisfaction, and 
which I unqualifiedly enjoy from every standpoint—as regards my chief, my 
colleagues, my work, my clerical support, and the pleasurable social duties—I 
did so after a fairly close calculation which most decidedly did not contemplate 
reduction. If the department is able to secure increased clerical appropriation 
for its use at home, and can increase the salaries of certain employees, why 
can it not increase at least the remuneration of the diplomatic officers in the 
field at what it was before? Has anyone at home been laboring under the 
delusion that because the war is over, the prices have sunk to reasonable 
levels? 

I have reason to believe that I speak also for the majority of my colleagues, 
i i • • < bit; < r disappointment and keen resentment is grow¬ 
ing apace. None of us advocate sabotage, no one even thinks of a strike, hut 
I think that a large proportion of us see but one inevitable solution. 

Aga'n ! Army officers attached to this embassy in all cases considerably my 
junior in years if not in experience, receive reasonable remuneration—one of 
them, some 14 years younger than I. receives $8,000 from his department, while 
all members of the naval headquarters have received a minimum increase of 
20 per cent in remunerat'on and allowances on account of the increased cost of 
living. Even the Shipping Board can pay its second in command here more 
than I rece ve at present. * * * 

Another secretary stationed at a post of the Continent writes as 
follows: 

On my arrival here the department’s instruction of October 11, last, to Minis¬ 
ter Hapgood was put before me, and I gather from it that my post allowance 
will henceforth be at the rate of $1,800 per annum. * * * I have not been 

in Copenhagen long enough to know whether the cost of.living here has officially 
decreased in the same proportion as this reduction from the $3,600 I drew in 
Christiania and Bucharest, but I know that in my case so drastic a cut in post 
allowance, if adhered to, will render necessary my separation from the service 
within a measurable time. It is now costing me the equivalent of $25 a day to 
live with my small family in two hotel rooms, with no prospect under present 
conditions in Copenhagen of obtaining less expensive and more extensive quar¬ 
ters. The discrepancy between my official income on the basis of the new allot¬ 
ment and necessary disbursements would he such as to make it easy to calculate 
the length of time I should feel justified in allowing it to continue. Coupled 
with the fact that this is my second transfer since March of this year, I may 
he entitled to say that I feel rather badly. * * * A post allowance of $1,800 

is utterly inadequate for my absolute requirements. But all this touches only 
one aspect of what I have in mind—it illustrates but one phase—and that, 
perhaps, more negligible than others—of a group of factors responsible for the 
state of relaxed discouragement and pervasive demoralization which I have 
noted ineieasingly of late in the Diplomatic Service. I will not presume to 
analyze this state of affa'rs, of which you are doubtless as well aware as any 
of us. 3 he plain fact is that the service is sick unto the verge of extinction. 

Then lie comments upon the better allowances which are made to 
Army officers at that particular place. 

Mr. Connally. Where is he serving? 

Mr. Carr. He is serving at Copenhagen. The other man is serving 
m London. They are, I think, two of the best members of the corps 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 157 


of secretaries in the Diplomatic Service, the most efficient as well as 
the most conservative. 

I will submit for the record this letter from the present ambassa¬ 
dor to Great Britain, which speaks for itself, and in no uncertain 
terms in regard to the need of post allowances. 


Embassy of the United States of America, 

London, December 30, 1919. 


Dear Mr. Secretary: I have no doubt that the action of the department in 
reducing post allowances for the commissioned members of the Diplomatic 
Service in the current year was prompted solely by necessity; but I feel such 
grave concern over the situation brought about by this reduction that I ask 
j to be permitted to register my formal protest. The announcement has un¬ 
doubtedly produced, not only here but throughout the service, a feeling of 
great discouragement, and with the present enormous rise in the cost of living 
we can not hope to hold at the present rates of compensation the men now 
serving, or to attract others in their places. Already, as you know, commercial 
organizations are constantly bidding for men who have' exhibited peculiar 
faculty, and we should have no right to feel surprised if resignations multiply. 

I believe this to be particularly unfortunate at this time of all others. 
The war has thrown up as its aftermath a host of questions in' every country 
which must be handled through diplomatic channels. Our loans to Europe 
have given us a direct interest in her political and financial condition and 
with our new merchant marine and export trade we are seeking everywhere 
to enlarge our old markets and create new ones. We need more than ever 
before all the brains, initiative, and experience in our Diplomatic Service 
that we are able to command. 

At the moment I have in this embassy, as you know, five secretaries and 
am expecting the arrival of two others in a very short time. Of those now 
with me, not one is a man of independent means although none of them, I am 
sure, could subsist upon their present salaries if they were not able to supple¬ 
ment them by some modest personal income. In industry and attention to 
duty they leave nothing to be desired, and I am sure work quite as dili¬ 
gently, and with as little relaxation, as they would do in any private com¬ 
mercial establishment. The cost of living in England has mounted, since the 
war, from 115 to 125 per cent. It is not to be wondered at, therefore, that 
they have begun to talk about leaving a service which offers so little in the 
way of financial reward and such uncertainty in the matter of ultimate pro¬ 
motion. 

I am writing entirely with reference to the commissioned service and there¬ 
fore say nothing about the -provision made for ambassadors and ministers. 
I need hardly add that after 12 months’ experience I have accumulated some 
rather decided views on that aspect of the question. I should like to inquire 
whether there are any data which I could supply in addition to those already 
; given which would be of assistance in directing the attention of Congress to 
the urgent need for a contented and efficient corps of diplomatic officers and 
for their adequate compensation. 

Relieve me, sincerely, yours, 


John W. Davis. 


That illustrates the situation produced by the reduction from 
$175,000 to $150,000 for post allowances to secretaries in the Diplo¬ 
matic Service. 

While the final adjustment of allotments to consular officers, which 
is a more intricate thing than that of allowances to secretaries, and 
in which we have got to figure exchange and try to give due credit 
for the average prevailing rate of exchange during the past six 
months, has not been made, I feel that when that final determination 
is made in the very near future, we are going to have the same general 
discontent in the Consular Service; and it may lead to something 
more than mere discontent. It is a critical situation. 

Mr. Houghton. As I understand your statement, the $800,000 
asked for will all be needed? 





158 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Carr. Every cent of it will be needed, Mr. Houghton; and it 
will not be a cent more than is thoroughly deserved in both branches 
of the service. 

I would like to go one step further, and to repeat that I feel very 
keenly the fact that on the allowance of this extra $200,000 is going 
to depend whether we shall keep both branches of the service from 
disintegrating. 

Mr. Houghton. And at a time when their services are more im¬ 
portant, perhaps, than ever before? 

Mr. Carr. At a time when the services are more important than 
at any other time in our lives, except during the war, and more im¬ 
portant to trade and general commercial intercourse than at any 
time we can remember, not excluding the period of the war. 

Mr. Rogers. As I understand it. Mr. Carr, this fund goes neither 
to ambassadors and ministers at the upper end of the scale, nor to 
clerks at the lower end of the scale? 

Mr. Carr. That is correct. 

Mr. Rogers. It goes, in other words, to counsellors, secretaries, con¬ 
suls general, consuls, vice consuls, and consular assistants ? 

Mr. Carr. That is precisely true. 

Mr. Rogers. The total salary allowance for those groups which I 
have just enumerated, excluding ambassadors, and ministers, and 
clerks, is under this bill a trifle over $2,500,000. So that, in asking 
for $800,000 post allowance, you are giving an average excess salary 
through the medium of post allowance on top of salary carried in 
the law of something like 30 per cent? 

Mr. Carr. Something like 30 per cent, against an increased cost of 
living in these different countries running anywhere from 50 per 
cent to several hundred per cent. You will note that Mr. Davis, our 
ambassador at London, says the cost of living has risen 115 per cent 
in England. There are other countries where it is much higher. 

Mr. Rogers. Of that $600,000 which is the post allowance item in 
the current law, what proportion would you say w~as attributable to 
exchange considerations, and what proportion to increased cost of 
living and necessities? 

Mr. Carr. Well, of course, it is very difficult to divide those two 
things, except in a country where the division is clear and sharp, 
as it is in China, or as it was last year in Chile, where it arises out 
of a fluctuating silver currency. An upward movement in exchange 
is very likely to produce a sharp upward movement in prices; : 
whereas a downward drift in exchange does not necessarily react 
immediately upon prices. Prices are likely to stay up for a consid¬ 
erable length of time after the change in exchange. 

We are working now to see how far we can reduce our last year’s 
allowance for the Consular Service by a reduction to the extent of 
the favorable exchange. The formula would be something like this: j 
The total cost of living, as far as we are able to determine it, minus 
salary, minus exchange—that is, exchange discount—would equal 
what ought to be the post allowance. But there we are limited again, 
in that we have only a limited appropriation from which to make a 
post allowance. So we have to make such a proportion of the post 
allowance that ought to be made as would be justified by the appro¬ 
priation which we have. 





DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 159 

Mr. Houghton. May I ask vou one question, Mr. Carr? Follow¬ 
ing up Mr. Rogers’s question, the $2,500,000 salary and the $600,000 
that was appropriated last for post allowances^ give a total of 
$3,100,000; you are asking for $200,000 more, which is only 6J per 
cent; that, really, is the increase that you are asking for. My ques¬ 
tion is, is that adequate? 

Mr. Carr. No; it is not. 

Mr. Houghton. What would be? 

Mr. Carr. I can not tell you offhand, Mr. Houghton, just what 
would be, but roughly I should say we ought to have about $1,400,000 
instead of $200,000, thus making a total post allowance of $2,000,000, 
or an increase of 80 per cent. 

Mr. Houghton. Presumabty you had some reason for asking for 

$ 200 , 000 . 

Mr. Carr. Mr. Lay suggests that is the department’s calculation 
of the absolute minimum. I will say very frankly that the depart¬ 
ment was led to limit the amount to $800,000 because of the ex¬ 
perience of the last two years in getting even as much as $600,000 
or $700,000. 

Mr. Houghton. May I ask one further question. Provided you 
get this $200,000, provided an increase only of per cent is asked, 
can you then hold your force? 

Mr. Carr. I can not say whether we can or not, but we will try 
to hold it, and we are utilizing for that purpose the small in- 
: crease for salary which you gave us last year. In other words, a man 
who last year got a post allowance from $2,500 to $4,000, namely, 
$1,500, will in all probability, when the settlement is made and it is 
found that he was advanced from $2,500 to $3,500, get an allowance 
of the difference between $3,500 and $4,000. It is not fair at all 
j to deny to ambassadors and ministers a post allowance. It is much 
less fair to deny a post allowance to consuls general merely because 
I they have a higher salary, and it is not fair to give a man a promo¬ 
tion and then take it away by reducing his post allowance. That 
is what we have been forced to do s because we have been unable 
to get enough money in the post allowance appropriation to do 
anything else. 

The Chairman. Do the secretaries receive this allowance? 

Mr. Carr. The secretaries in the Diplomatic Service? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. It was from two of the secretaries that we re¬ 
ceived the reports I was just reading. 

Mr. Connally. Prior to the war did we have post allowances just 
as we have now? 

Mr. Carr. No ; we did not, for the simple reason that conditions all 
over the world were more or less stable and had been more or less 
stable for years past. It was only after the war began that there 
began to be these great advances in cost of living in different places 
and salaries began to mean practically nothing in the way of cover¬ 
ing living expenses. I went before the Appropriations Committee 
two years ago with a telegram in my pocket from the inspector in 
China saying that unless immediate action was taken to provide post 
allowances we should have to face resignations of all of the officers 
in China, and I had in my pocket a telegram from the consul general 
in Chile transmitting the resignations of himself and all the consuls 



160 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


in Chile because the department had been unable to convince Congress ■ 
that an adequate post allowance ought to be made for Chile. The 
men found that they could not meet their expenses, and their only 
remedy was to send in their resignations. That is how serious this 
question is, and that is why I say that without a liberal allowance 
for post allowances we shall most certainly have to face the disinte¬ 
gration of the service, and particularly so with respect to all our best 
men. 

Mr. Houghton. A liberal allowance, you say. 

Mr. Carr. Well, as liberal as we have had the courage to request, j 

Mr. Rogers. Mr. Carr, may I ask a question. I think it would be j 
of value if you had indicated to the committee some degree at least 
of the geographical apportionment of both the current $600,000 and ! 
the proposed $800,000, and also the considerations which lead you 
to grant perhaps 100 per cent post allowances at one point and no 
post allowances at another point. Noav, for example, I take it that 
for Spain you can give a much lower post allowance than you can 
in China. 

Mr. Carr. In China we give no post allowance, considered from 
exactly the standpoint that we give a post allowance in France, let 
us say. In China all we have done thus far has been to try to place 
the officer on the basis that he was in respect to the amount of China’s 
currency which he could get in 1914. The formula in China is that 
the officers shall draw such an amount as will give them the same 
amount in China’s silver coin which they could get for the same 
amount in gold salary in 1914. 

Mr. Smith of Illinois. Is that applied to all territories? 

Mr. Carr. That is applied only to China, because the situation is ; 
peculiar. We can not make any post allowance in China for cost of 
living alone, as distinguished from the question of exchange. 

Mr. Temple. That is, if I understand, those in China are given 
post allowances sufficient to enable them to buy with the salary and ? 
the post allowance the same amount of China’s money they could 
"buy with the salary alone in 1914? 

Mr. Carr. Quite so; yes. 

Mr. Temple. So that the actual increase in price of living, as 
measured in China’s money, we do not help those men to bear at all? 

Mr. Carr. No ; we have so far taken no account of their increased 
price of commodities. We have taken into account only the getting 
into those men’s hands of the amount of currency which they were* 
accustomed to have in 1914. We have been driven to that by the 
mere fact that we could not keep our service in any other way, and 
that all the commercial concerns in China were making to their men 
far more liberal allowances than we were making to ours. 

Mr. Ackerman. Mr. Carr, does that post allowance not apply to 
other countries similarly situated to China, like the Straits Settle¬ 
ments and Japan, where the price of silver has risen? 

Mr. Carr. It does not apply in the same way to Japan, nor, I think, 
to the Straits Settlements. There we have covered the matter in the 
same way that we attempt to cover it in other countries. We have 
not given the same treatment as we have given in China because the 
conditions were a little different. In China, as I say, we are driven 
to that. 





DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 161 

Mr. Ackerman. lias the yen in Japan risen in almost the same 
ratio as the trade dollar in China ? 

Mr. Carr. I do not think it has risen in the same ratio. It has 
risen; yes. 

Mr. Houghton. Japan is on a gold basis? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. To all the gold-standard countries we have ap¬ 
plied the same rule, namely, the rule of living cost, duly checked, 
minus the salary we were paying; then such a proportion of that as 
the appropriation would stand we have given as a post allowance, 
differing in various places according to special conditions, so far as 
we could ascertain them in a rough way. I do not mean to say that 
I we have been precise, because it has been physically impossible in 
the last couple of years to be precise about a matter of that kind. 

Mr. Rogers. You give the post allowance on the basis, the per¬ 
centage of the individual salary, do you not? 

Mr. Carr. Post allowance on the basis of the difference between the 
individual’s salary and the approved cost of living for the indi¬ 
vidual. A married man, for example, would receive a larger allow¬ 
ance than an unmarried man. 

Mr. Rogers. Does a low-salaried man get a larger percentage of 
: his salary than a high-salaried man in the same city? 

Mr. Carr. The working out of the arrangement by reason of the 
small appropriation which we had has led to a practice which is un¬ 
fair to the high-salaried man, since, if we find the cost of living, for 
instance, for an $8,000 officer is $7,000, the $8,000 officer would get no 
post allowance whereas if the cost of living for a $2,500 officer 
i were $5,000 the $2,500 officer would get such a proportion of that 
difference between the salary and cost of living as the appropriation 
would stand. 

Mr. Temple. Modified in some cases, I understood you to say, by 
considerations based on differences of exchange. 

Mr. Carr. That is what we are trying to do this year. Last year 
we did not do that. But we are forced to do that this year, and I 
think it will be found in the ultimate result that it will be justified. 

Mr. Rogers. I remember that a year ago it was testified that Mr. 
Madden Summers, who was our consul at Moscow, and who died 
there as a result of his efforts for the service and the country, re¬ 
ceived a salary of $5,000, as I recall it, and a post allowance of 
$4,500, or vice versa—I do not remember just what the figures were, 
but the post allowance was substantially equal in amount to the 
salary. Is that quite generally found? 

Mr. Carr. Yes; there are a good many cases of that sort. 

Mr. Rogers. Are there any cases where a man receives any post 
allowance more than his salary ? 

Mr. Carr. Not many. I would say, offhand, that there are not 
any, but I think it may be found that for special reasons, due to 
special conditions, there may be a few cases. Russia at that time 
presented a very unique situation. 

Mr. Rogers. Have you any figures there which give us in very 
general terms the apportionment by countries of the fund that you 
are now operating under? 

161477—20-11 





162 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Carr. I do not know that I can give you the apportionment 
of countries. I can give you actual allotments made to secretaries 
in the Diplomatic Service. I would be glad to put that in the 
record. 

Mr. Rogers. I think we ought to have it. 

Mr. Sabath. Together with the salaries. 

Apportionment, by countries , of allotment of post allowances to secretaries in 

the diplomatic service for 1919-20. 


Country. 

Number 
of secre¬ 
taries. 

Total 
post al¬ 
lowance. 

Country. 

Number 
of secre¬ 
taries. 

Total 
post al¬ 
lowance. 

A r pen tin a 

2 

»3 , 150 

Japan. 

5 

S t, 750 

A i istrin, 

2 

2'700 

Liberia. 

1 

1,500 

Belgium 

2 

3'450 

Mexico. 

3 

4.350 

Bolivia 

1 

85 

Netherlands. 

5 

9,300 

Brazil 

2 

2,200 

Nicaragua. 


700 

Rnlgaria, 

i 

L 500 

Norway. 

1 

2,250 

Chile . 

2 

3,450 

Panama..'. 

1 

1,000 

China . 

H 

10 , ooo 

Paraguay. 


700 

Colombia 

i 

1/200 

Persia. 

1 

1,500 

Cuba 

2 

3.300 

Peru. 

1 

2, 250 

Czechoslovakia . 

2 

2, 700 

Poland. 

4 

5,500 

Denmark 

2 

2 ,700 

Portugal. 

1 

1,800 

Dominican Republic 


'500 

Roumania. 

1 

2,250 

E cuaclor . 

. 

700 

Russia. 

2 

2,700 

F gvpt 

1 

2, 250 

Salvador. 

1 

700 

Finland. 


1,500 

Serbia. 

1 

1,500 

France . 

8 

11,450 

Siam. 

1 

500 

Germany. 

4 

5 , 000 

Spain. 

3 

4,250 

Great Britain.... 

8 

ll' 550 

Sweden. 

2 

3,450 

Greece . 

1 

l' 500 

Switzerland. 

3 

4,650 

Guatemala. 

1 

1,050 

Turkey. 

3 

3,700 

Haiti. 


' 500 

U ruguav. 


1.000 

Honduras. 


700 

Venezuela. 

1 

1,800 

Italv. 

4 

6.900 





Mr. Carr. I will also put into the record, if you please, the entire 
allotment made to the Consular Service for officers, which was 
printed in the Senate hearing last year. I can not put into the 
record the final determination of the allowances to consular officers 
for the current year, because, as I say, the last year’s allotments have 
not been modified in the matter of exchange. It is in process of 
being done right now. But you can count on the allotments being 
reduced from the total sum of $490,000 to $245,000. 

Post allowances, 1918-19. 


Posts. 

Present incumbent. 

Salary. 

Allow¬ 

ance 

1918-19. 

Posts. 

Present incumbent. 

Salary. 

Allow¬ 

ance 

1918-19 

ARGENTINA. 




BRAZIL. 




Buenos Aires... 

Wm. II. Robert- 

$8,000 

$2,500 

Bahia . 

Edward Higgin .. . 
Geo. H. Pickerell. . 
Arminius T. Hae- 
berle. 

$4,000 

4,500 

4,500 

$1,500 

1,500 

1,500 

son. 

Para . 


David J. D.Myers. 
V.L.Nicholson. .. 
C.Cletus Miller_ 

3,000 
2,500 
2,000 

2,400 

1,500 

1,500 

Pernambuco... 

Rio de Janeiro. 

Rosario. 

Harold G. Waters. 
Wilbert Bonney.. 

2,000 

3,000 

1.500 

2.500 

Porto Alegre ... 
Santos . 

Samuel T. Lee. ... 
C. F. Deichman. .. 
C. L. Hoover .. 

4,500 
4,000 
4,000 

1,500 

1,500 

2,000 


Sao Paulo . 

* BOLIVIA. 




BULGARIA. 


La Paz . 

Ross Hazeltine. ... 

3,500 


Sofia . 

D. I. Murphy . 

5,500 

3,000 





















































































DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL 


163 


Posts. 


CHILE. 

Antofagasta.... 
Punta Arenas.. 

Valparaiso. 

CHINA. 

1 Amoy. 

Anttrng. 

Canton. 

| Changsha. 

Chefoo. 

Chungking. 

Foochow. 

Hankow. 

Harbin. 

Mukden. 

Nanking. 

Shanghai. 


Swatow. 

Tientsin. 

Tsinan fu. 

Tientsin. 

COLOMBIA. 

Barranouilla... 
Cartagena. 

COSTA RICA. 

Port I.imon_ 

San Jose. 

CUBA. 

Cardenas. 

Cienfuegos. 

Habana. 

Nuevitas. 

Santiago de 
Cuba. 

Nueva Gerona. 

DENMARK. 

Aalborg. 

.Aarhus. 

Copenhagen.... 

Esbjurg. 

Odense. 

DOMINICAN RE¬ 
PUBLIC. 

Puerto Plata... 
Santo Domingo 

ECUADOR. 

Guayaquil.I 

FRANCE. 

I 

Bordeaux. 


7‘o.s-f alio trances, 1U18-19 —Continued. 


Present incumbent. 

Salary. 

A ilow- 
ance 
1918-19. 

Posts. 

Present incumbent. 

Salary. 

A llow- 
ance 
1918-19! 




FRANCE—*<2011. 




Thos. W. Voettcr 

11,000 

82,500 

Bordeaux. 

Geo. W. Young... 

$2,500 

81,100 

E. Verne Richard- 

2, 500 

1,500 


V. W. O’Hara. 

1,800 

700 

son. 



Brest. 

S. B. Forbus. 

2,500 

1,000 

Deo J. Keena.. . 

5 500 

4 500 

Calais.. . 

K. S. Patton. 

3,000 

2 ,600 

Arnold McKay.... 

2, 500 

2 000 

Cette. 

Paul H. Cram. 

2,500 

1,500 



Grenoble. 

Thos. D. Davis. .. 

2,500 

1,200' 




Havre. 

J. B. Osborne. 

5,000 

2,000 

C. E. Gauss. 

3,500 


La Rochelle_ 

Wm. W. Bruns- 

2,500 

500 

A. J. Brewer. 

1.650 



wick. 


John K. Davis.. 

3 000 


Limoges. 

E. L. Belisle. 

3,000 


A. W. Pontius.... 

4,500 


Lyon. 

G. Carrigan. 

3,500 

2,500 

C. D. Mein hard t . 

1 650 


Marseille. 

A. Gaulin. 

6,000 

2,500 

M. F. Perkins_ 

3, .500 



Jas. P. Davis. 

2,500 

2,100 

J. B. Nicholson ... 

1,650 


Nantes. 

G. B. Ravndal_ 

8,000 

1,000 

t ester Mavnard... 

4,500 



Chas. E. Allen_ 

1,500 

1,200 

Paul R Josslvn. 

2 500 


Paris. 

A. M. Thackara... 

12,000 


< loo. C. Hanson... 

3 000 



Tracv Lav. 

2,500 

2,300 

E. S. Cunningham 

5' .500 



E. C. A. Reed. 

2,500 

2 ,500 

Jay C Huston 

1 650 



E. L. Ives. 

1,650 

1 ’ 250 

('has. K. Moser_ 

4,500 


Rouen. 

A. L. Burnell. 

2,500 

1,200 

Samuel Sokobin... 

1,650 


St. Etienne_ 

Wm. H. Hunt- 

2,500 

900 

D. Jenkins.. 



St. Nazaire. 

E. C. Coulter. 

1.650 

850 

F. C Baker 

4 500 


Algiers. 

A. C. Frost. 

3,000 

2,600 

Thomas Sammons 

8' 000 


Dakar. 

Wm. J. Yerby- 

3,000 

1'000 

X. T. Johnson.... 

3^ .500 


Guadeloupe.... 

H. T. Wilcox. 

2,500 

500 

Raymond P. 

2 500 


Martinique. 

T. R. Wallace. 

2,500 


'Penny 



Saigon. 

H. Remillard. 

2,500 


Joseph E. Jacobs.. 

2,500 


St.Tierre, Miq. 

Geo. K. Donald... 

3,000 

500 

C. J. Spiker. 

2,000 


Tahaiti. 

T. B. L. Lavton.. 

2,500 


Mvrl S. Mvers. 

3,500 


Tananarive.... 

Jas. G. Carter. 

2,500 

1,000 

P. R. TTe.intzteman 



Tunis. 

E. G. Kemp. 

2,500 

3,000 

i.( (). F. Bickford.. 

2,500 






A. Chapin. 

1,650 


GREAT BRITAIN. 




N. F Allman. 

1 000 









Belfast. 

Hunter Sharp. 

5,000 

1 000 




Birmingham... 

E. H. Dennison... 

4,500 

1,500 

Claude E. Guvant. 

3,000 

2,000 

Bradford. 

A. E. Ingram. 

4,500 

1,500 

A. J. Lespinasse... 

3 000 


Bristol. 

Robertson Honey. 

3,000 

1,500 



I Cardiff. 

L. A. Lathrop. 

3,000 

1 800 




Cork. 

C. H. Hathaway, 

3,000 

2,500 

S E Mc'vlillin 

2 500 

1 000 

Dublin. 

J 

E. L. Adams. 

4,000 

1 000 

Ben. F. Chase_ 

3' 500 

500 


Chas. C. Broy. 

2,500 

1,100 

Dundee. 

H. A. Johnson_ 

3'000 

2,000 




l Dunfermline... 

H. D. Van Sant... 

3,000 

1,000 




Edinburgh. 

Rufus Fleming_ 

3,500 

•2 ,000 

Geo. A. Makinson. 

1,800 

700 

Glasgow. 

J. N. McCunn. 

4,500 

1,000 

Chas. S. Winans... 

4,500 

2,000 


Thos. II. Bevan... 

2,500 

1,500 

H. W Hariis 

5 500 

2 500 

I Hull. 

H. M. Byington... 

3,500 

2,000 

H.C. von Slru\e.. 

2' 500 

1,800 

Leeds. 

Percival Gasset t... 

3'000 

l'OOO 

T ft Calvprt 

2 500 

1 500 

Liverpool. 

H. Lee Washing- 

8,000 

2,000 

Harold D. Glum... 

3,500 

1,500 


ton. 





Hugh H. Watson.. 

2,500 

1,000 

Wm Pard*d 


500 


Joseph Flack. 

1,650 

600 




London. 

R. P. Skinner. 

12,000 

3,000 




Nice. 

W. D. Hunter_ 

2 ,500 

2 ,500 




London. 

W. S. Hollis. 

4.500 

1,800 

Geo. M. Hanson... 

3,500 

3,000 

(Boma). 

H. A. McBride.... 

2,500 

3 ; 000 

John E. Kehl. 

4.500 

2,000 


R. Westacott. 

2,000 

1,300 

Wm. 11. Gale. 

4,.500 

4.000 


L. E. Reed. 

2,000 

1.200 

B. L. .Agerton. 

2.500 

2,500 


E. II. Yelverton... 

2,000 

1,200 

R omeyn W or- 

2,500 

2.000 


H. C. Claiborne... 

2,000 

1,200 

ninth. 



Manchester. 

R. E. Holaday_ 

6,000 

480 

M. P. Dunlap. 

2.500 

2.500 

Newcastle-on- 

Walter C. Hamm.. 

3,000 

1,200 




Tyne. 







Nottingham_ 

('. M. Hitch. 

4,500 

800 




Plymouth. 

Jos. G. Stephens... 

2,500 

2,000 




Sheffield 

J. M. Savage. 

3,000 

1,800 

Wm. A. Bickers. 

2,500 

500 

Southampton.. 

A. W. Swalm. 

4, 500 

'500 

C. S. Edwards.... 

3,000 

1,000 

Stoke-on-Trent. 

R. S. S. Bergh_ 

3,000 

1,800 




Swansea. 

M.K. Moorhead.. 

4,000 

1,500 




SOUTH AFRICA. 




F. W. Goding. 

4,500 

1,000 





L. W. Franklyn. 

1,800 1 

200 

Gape Town. 

G. H. Murphy_ 

8,000 

1,000 




DurLan. 

Wm. W. Master- 

4,000 

1,500 


2 500 

700 

Johannesburg.. 

Fred D. Fisher_ 

5,000 


J. P. Doughten.... 

2,500 1 

1 , 10 '' ; 

S. W. Honaker_ 

2,500 

1,500 

Geo. A. Bucklin.. 

4,000 • 

1,600 1 

Port Elizabeth. 

John W. Dye. 

2,500 

2,000 












































































































































































164 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL 


Post allowances , 1918-19 —Continued. 


Posts. 

Present incumbent 

Salary 

Allow¬ 

ance 

1918-19. 

Posts. 

l 

Present incumbent 

Salary, 

Allow¬ 

ance 

1918-19 

INDIA. 




GREECE. 




Bombay. 

S. K. Lupton... 

14,000 

8500 

Athens. 

Alex. W. Weddell. 

U, 500 

S3,000 

Calontta. 

Jas. A. Smith... 

8,000 


Patras. 

I A. B. Cooke. 

3,000 

2,500 

Colombo. 

W. A. Leonard... 

3,500 

500 

Saloniki. 

I Geo. Horton. 

4 500 

3 ’ 000 

Karachi. 




H. R. Russell. 

1,800 

900 

Madras. 

L. Memminger_ 

3,000 

500 





Rangoon. 

L. P. Briggs. 

2,500 

1,000 

GUATEMALA. 




AUSTRALIA. 




Guatemala. 

Wm. T. Fee. 

5,000 


Adelaide. 

Henry P.Starrett. 

3,000 

1, 500 

HAITI. 




Melbourne. 

Wm. C. Mageissen. 

4,500 

1,200 





Newcastle. 

L. N. Sullivan_ 

3,000 

1,500 

Cape Haitien... 

L. W. Livingston.. 

2,000 


Sydney. 

Jos. I. Brittain. 

5 ,500 

'880 

Port au Prince. 

John B. Terres_ 

3,000 


CANADA. 




HONDURAS. 



Calgary. 

Samuel C. Reat. 

3,500 


Ceiba...". 

Chas. N. Willard.. 

2,500 


Campbellton... 

G. Carlton Wood- 

3,500 

500 

Puerto Cortes.. 

John R. Bradley.. 

2 ,500 

500 


ward. 



Tegucigalpa.... 

I rancis J. Dyer... 

2,500 

800 

Charlottetown. 

Wm. A. Pierce_ 

2,500 

500 

Amapala. 

Morton F. Moos... 

2,000 


Cornwall. 

Thos. D. Edwards 

2 ,500 






Fernie. 

Norton F. Brand.. 

2,500 

800 

ITALY. 




Ft. Win. and 

G. R. Taggart. 

2,500 

500 





Port Arthur. 




Catania. 

Rot>t. R. Bradford 

2,500 

2,500 

Halifax. 

Evan E. Young 

4,500 

1 .S00 

Florence. 

Fred. T. Dumont. 

3,500 

3,000 

Hamilton 

Jose de Olivares 

3,500 

500 

Genoa. 

David F. Wilber.. 

5' 500 

4,000 

Kingston. 

F. S. S. Johnson... 

3 ; 000 

500 


Quincy F. Roberts 

2,000 

1 ,2G0 

Moncton. 

B. M. Rasmussen.. 

3,000 

500 


.T. J. Murphy, jr... 

1,800 

1,400 

Montreal 

.1. L. Rodgers 

8,000 


Leghorn. 

Wm. J. Grace. 

3,000 

2,600 


L. B. Morris 

2,500 

1, 700 

Milan.. 

North Winship_ 

4,000 

1 600 

Niagara Falls.. 

J. B. Milner... 

3,000 

500 


Ho C. Funk. 

2,000 

1,000 

Ottawa.. . 

.1. G. Foster 

8,000 


Naples. 

B. Harvey Carroll. 

3,000 

2,600 

Prescott. 

F. C. Denison. 

2,500 

500 


Herbert C. Biar... 

2,000 

1,000 

Prince Rupert. 

E. A. Wakefield... 

3,500 

500 

Palermo. 

Samuel H. Shank. 

3,500 

2 ,500 

Quebec. 





W. Duval Brown. 

2,000 

750 

R/>gi na 

.7. TT Johnson 

2, 500 


Rome. 

Francis B. Keene. 

1,5'>0 

2,400 

R i y i p r « rj u 

B S Rairdp.n 

3'000 


Turin. 

Josenh E. Haven.. 

3,500 

2 200 

Loup. 





Dana C. Sycks_ 

2,000 

1'800 

St TnVin? New 

H S Culver 

3,500 


Venice. 

John A. Armstrong 

2,500 

2,500 

Brunswick. 







St. Johns, New- 

J. S. Benedict. 

2,500 

1,000 

JAPAN. 




foundland. 








St. Stephens, 

A. B. Garrett ... 

2, 500 


Dairen.! 

A. A. Williamson. 

4.000 


New Brims- 




Kobe. 

Robert. Fra er, jr.. 

5.000 

2,000 

wick. 





Eugene Doornail.. 

2,500 

400 

Sarnia. 

F. C. Slater. 

2, 500 

500 


E. R. Pic 1 over_ 

1,650 

1.000 

Pau’t ate "M&- 

Geo. W. Sbotts 

2,500 


Nagasaki. 

E. L. Neville. 

3,500 


rie. 




Seoul, Chosen..! 

Leo A. Bergholz.. 

4,500 

400 

Sherbrooke. 

C. Donaldson. 

3,000 

500 


Ray S. Curtice_ 

2,500 

1,000 

Sydney, Nova 

C. M. Freeman_ 

3,500 

500 

Taihoku. 

Max D. Kirjnssoff. 

2,500 

2.000 

Scotia. 




Yokohama. 

Geo. H. Scidmore. 

8,000 


T r nto. 

C. W. Martin. 

4,000 

2,000 


H. B. Hitchcock.. 

2,500 

500 

Vancouver. 

G. N. West. 

4,500 

1,500 


H. T. Goodier. 

1.650 

850 


T. N. Linnell. 

2,500 

1,000 

Tokyo (Emb.). 

Harry F. Hawley. 

2,500 

1.500 

Victoria . 

R. B. Mosher 

4,500 



1. C. Correll. 

1,000 

500 

Windsor. 

M. J. Hendrick_ 

4,000 


MEXICO. 


Winnipeg. 

F. M. Rvder. 

4.500 






Yarmouth. 

J. J. C. Watson... 

2,500 

500 

Acapulco. 

J ohn A. G atnon... 

3,500 


Aden. 

A.E. Southard... 

2,500 

1,500 

AguascalientcsJ 

Luther K. Zabris- 

2,500 

500 

Auckland, New 

Alf. A. Winslow.. 

4,500 

500 


kie. 



Zealand. 




Chihuahua.j 

Jas. B. Stewart_ 

2,500 


Barbados. 

C. L. Livingston.. 

3,000 


Ciudad Jaurez.. 

Edward A. Dow.. 

2,500 

1,000 

Belize, British 

Wm. L. Avery_ 

3,000 


Durango. 




Honduras. 



Ensenada. 

Svdnev Smith.... 

2,500 

500 

Gcornet wn . . 

G. E. Chamberlin. 

4,000 


Frontera. 

Thos. D. Bowman 

2 500 

500 

Gibraltar... . 

R. L. Sprague. 

2 ,500 

1,200 

Guadalajara.... 

J. R. Silliman. 

3 000 

500 

Hamilton, Ber- 

Ethel. Watts. 

5,500 

Guaymas. 

Fred. Simpich. 

a , ooo 

muda. 




Manzanillo. 

Ilarrv H.Walsh... 

2,500 

1,000 

Tlnns/kons?. 

Geo. E. Anderson. 

8 , 000 


Matamoros. 

Gilbert, 7?. Wilson 

2 500 

1 200 

Kingston, Ja- 

C. L. Latham. 

4,000 

1,000 

Mazatlan. 

Wm, 74 Chapman 

2 500 

1 000 

maica. 



Mexico t ity.... 

Goo. A. Chamber- 

6,100 

3,000 

Malta. 

W. Keblinger. 

3,000 

1,200 


lain 



Nairobe. 

S. W. EellsU.. 

2,500 

2,000 

Monterey_ 

Wilbur T Gracey 

3 500 

9 non 

Nassau. 

Wm. F. Dotv. 

3; 500 

'500 

N ogales. 

Ezra. M 7,awtnn 

3 000 

500 

Penang. 

Geo. L. Logan.... 

2,500 

1,500 

Nuevo Laredo. 

Jesse I. Beall 

1,650 

1,000 

Port Antonio. . 

C. E. Asbury. 

2,500 

1,700 

Piedras Negras. 


Singapore. 

E. N. Gunsaulus.. 

6 , 000 

1,200 

Progreso. 

O. Gav Marsh 

2 500 

2 000 


H. J. Dickinson... 

2,500 

500 

Salina Cruz.... 

Lloyd Burlingham 

2,500 

1.000 

Soerabava. 

Harry Campbell.. 

2,500 

500 

Saltillo. 




Trinidad. 

Henry D. Baker.. 

3,500 


San Luis Potosi 

Cornelius Ferris... 

3,500 













































































































































































DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 
Post allowances , 1918-19 —Continued. 


165 


Posts. 


MEXICO—contd. 

t 

Santa Rosalia.. 

Tampico. 

Torreon. 

Vera Cruz. 


Mexicali. 

morocco. 

Tangier. 

NETHERLANDS. 

Amsterdam 
Rotterdam. 


Batavia. 

Curacao. 

NICARAGUA. 

Bluefields. 

Corinto. 


NORWAY. 

Bergen. 

Christiana. 

Christiansand. 


Present incumbent. 


Bartley F. Yost... 

C. I. Dawson_ 

Henry M. Wolcott. 
L. H. Gourley.. 
Francis R. Stewart 
W. F. Boyle_ 


Maxwell Blake_ 


F. W. Mahin. 

Soren Listoe. 

C. R. Nasmitli_ 

John F. Jewell_ 

Algar E. Carleton. 

G. S. Messersmith 


J. O. Sanders.... 
A. J. McConnieo.. 


Stavanger. 

Trondhjem.... 
Vardo. 


PANAMA. 


Colon_ 

Panama. 


PARAGUAY. 
Asuncion_ 

PERSIA. 


Bush ire. 
Tabriz.. 
Teheran. 


Ralph C. Busser. 
Marion Letcher. 
Charles Forman. 
Geo. N. IlTt. 


Salary. 


PERU. 
Callao-Lima_ 

PORTUGAL. 

Lisbon. 

Funchal. 

Fayal. 

Loureivo 

Marq’s. 

St. Michaels... 
Oporto. 

RUSSIA. 

Archangel. 


Milo A. Jewett.. 
H. C. A. Darhm. 


Julius D. Dreher.. 
Alban Snyder. 


Henry H. Balch... 


John A. Ray_ 

Gordon Paddock.. 
Ralph H. Bader.. 


$2,500 
3, .500 
3,000 
1,800 
2, .500 
2,500 


7,500 


5,000 

5.500 

2.500 
5, OIK) 
2,500 
2,500 


2,500 
3,000 


3.500 

5.500 

2.500 

4.500 


Allow¬ 

ance 

1918-19. 


Wm. W. Handley. 


Will L. Lowrie_ 

H. G. Kemper- 

Robert L. Keiser. 


John Q. Wood- 

Samuel H. Wiley.. 


Fel'x Cole. 

Leslie A. Davis... 
Maurice C. P ierce.. 


3, 500 
3.000 


1,000 
5,500 


3,000 


3,500 
3, 000 
2,.500 


5, 500 


4, .500 
3 000 
2,500 


000 

500 


2,500 
3, 500 
2 , 500 


$ 1,000 

3,000 

1,500 

200 

500 

1,000 


1,500 

1,000 

2,000 


1, .500 
840 


500 

200 


3,000 

4,000 

1,500 

2,000 


1,800 

3,000 


2, .500 


2.000 

1,000 


500 


.500 
1,500 
1,500 


1,000 

1,000 


2, 500 
2,000 
1,800 


Posts. 


Russia— contd 

| Archangel. 

| Helsingfors_ 

Irkutsk (Kief), 
i Moscow. 

| Petrograd. 

| Archangel. 

Tiflis. 

[ Vladivostok... 


SPAIN. 


Almeria.... 
Barcelona. 


Bilbao. 

Gijon. 

Madrid. 

Malaga. 

Palma de Mall. 

Santander. 

Seville. 

Teneriffe. 

Valencia. 

Vigo. 

Cadiz. 


Present incumbent. 


SWEDEN. 


Goteborg. 

Malmo... 


Stockholm. 


SWITZERLAND. 

Basel. 

Berne. 


Geneva. 
St. Gall. 
Zurich.. 


Berne (Leg)... 

URUGUAY. 

Montevideo... 

VENEZUELA. 

La Guaira- 

Maracaibo. 

Puerto Cabello. 


Shelby F. Strother 
Thornwcll Haynes 
H. B. Quart on_ 

E. L. Harris. 

D. B. Macgowan.. 

J. P. Jameson. 

Alf. R. Thomson.. 

R. C. Tredwell_ 

Frank C. Lee. 

DcW. C. Poole, jr.. 

F. W. Smith. 

J. IC. Caldwell. 

J. A. Embry. 


Gaston Smith- 

C. Bailey Hurst.. 
H.N.Cookingham 
Leonard G. Daw¬ 
son. 

Paul H. Foster... 
Geo. G. Duffee... 
Ely E. Palmer... 
L. G. Dreyfus, jr. 

J. K. Goodier- 

J. H. Grout. 

R. W. Harnden.. 

Geo. K. Stiles_ 

J. R. Putnam.- 

Edw. I. Nathan.. 
Arthur McLean.. 


Salary 


Wallace J. Young.. 
Parker W. Burh- 
man. 

Albert Halstead.. 
Geo. D. Hopper_ 


Philip Holland... 
Hassell H. Dick.. 
Wil iam P.Kent.. 
R. E. Schoenfeld.. 
Montefiore Judel- 
sohn. 

L. W. PTaskell. 

J. T.McCutcheon.. 

Wm. J. Pike. 

R. F. Chesbrough. 

Frank Bohr. 

Morgan O. Taylor. 

J. C. McNally. 

Alfred W. Done¬ 
gal!. 


$2,500 
2,500 
2, ,500 
4, .500 

2.500 

3.500 
2, ,500 

3.500 

2,000 

2.500 
3,000 
4,000 
2,500 


3,000 

5.500 

2.500 
2,500 

3,000 
2, .500 
2,500 
2,500 
2,500 
4,000 
2,500 
3,000 
2,500 
3,000 
2,500 


William Dawson.. 


Homer Brett. 

Emil Sauer. 

Frank A. Henry.. 


3,000 

2,500 

.8,000 

2,500 


4,000 

2.500 

4.500 
1,800 
1,800 

2.500 
1,800 

4.500 

2.500 
2,000 
2,000 


3,500 


4,000 


3,000 

3.500 

2.500 


A llow- 
ance 
1918-19 


$1,800 
3,000 
3,000 
2,900 
2,500 
2,000 
2, OIK) 
2,500 


3,000 


2,500 

2,000 


2,000 

2.500 
700 

1.500 

2,400 
500 
2,900 
2,300 
900 
500 
1,000 
1,200 
2,000 
2,000 
500 


3,000 

2,000 

2,000 

2,500 


3,000 

1,800 

3,500 

1,350 

1,350 

3,000 

1,000 

1,000 

1,800 

2,000 

1,200 

2,000 

3,400 


500 


500 


OFFICERS NOT LISTED ELSEWPIERE. 


Apia, Samoa... 

Tsingtau. 

Alexandria. 

Bagdad. 


Mason Mitchell ... 

$3,500 

$500 

Cairo. 

Hampson Gary... 

$6,500 

Will vs R. Peck... 

4,000 



Jesse B. Jackson.. 

3, 500 

Arthur Garrels.... 

5,000 



Paul Knabenshue. 

2 500 

S. Pinkney Tuck.. 

1 ’ 800 

400 

Trebizond. 

Geo. I/. Brandt... 

1,650 

Oscar S. lieizer... 

3, 000 

1,700 


Wm. L. Jenkins.. 

2,500 

Bernard Gottlieb.. 

1,650 

1,050 





$3,000 
2, 500 
1,200 
















































































































































166 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Houghton. No other use is made for post-allowance money 
than that you have cited, I suppose ? 

Mr. Carr. No; none whatever. The principles that I have given 
to the committee are the principles which govern the entire expendi¬ 
ture of the entire allotment, using our discretion as far as we can 
to hold the service together and to make it accurate and to use the 
money to that end. 

Mr. Mason. I do not know, Mr. Chairman, whether the com¬ 
mittee has taken any action. I have been necessarily absent on 
account of my health. But, for one, I shall favor the increase 
recommended by the department. I think we ought to take care of 
our people over there. Mr. Rogers, has any vote been taken? 

Mr. Rogers. No votes have been taken on any provisions of the 
bill. | 

Mr. Mason. I might have to be absent to-morrow and I wanted 
my position known. 

Mr. Carr. I would like to add one further word, Mr. Chairman, 
and that is in this matter of post allowances, when it was first 
begun in the midst of the war it was of course entirely a new | 
development. It was an experiment. The press of conditions 1 
growing out of the war which had to be met did not permit us j 
to erect any satisfactory machinery—I mean machinery which ■ 
would work precise justice to every man in the service and get a i 
precise result to our entire satisfaction in every instance. Now, I 
as we have gone on we have sought- 

Mr. Mason (interposing). There are no two cases alike. They I 
could not be. 

Mr. Carr. No. It is a question not only of statistics and the 
study of them, but it is a question of a man’s own estimates, a question I 
of the importance to be attached to the office, which is a matter after 
all for the Secretary of State to determine. All of those things enter 
in, but we are building, and if we are fortunate enough to have a con¬ 
tinuance of this appropriation, in proper amount, we will I think 
by the beginning of the next session of Congress be in a position | 
to have compiled a fairly accurate system upon which these appro¬ 
priations can be made, and one which I think will be easily under¬ 
stood and be of great help to the members of this committee in pre- I 
senting this question to the whole body of Congress. It is a thing j 
that has to be worked out gradually, and as I stated the other day, I 
I think it will be found to be possible to devise a system of index i 
numbers or the equivalent which will regulate the allowance to be ' 
made in each country. 

Mr. Temple. And the index numbers would have, of course, to j 
be modified from time to time because price statistics change rapidly ? 

Mr. Carr. Quite so. 

(At this point the chairman left the room and Mr. Rogers as- I 
sumed the chair.) 

Mr. Rogers. The next item is a recommendation of $1,200,000 
for clerk hire at United States consulates, which is the same amount 
as that carried in the current law? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. Is there an opportunity to effect a proper reduction 
of that item this year, Mr. Carr? 






DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


167 


Mr. Carr. Mr. Chairman, I think it would be an exceedingly 
detrimental thing to the service, an almost fatal thing to the 
service, to effect a reduction in that amount for clerk hire, for 
several reasons. Even before the war the inadequacy of the al¬ 
lowance for clerk hire was one of the principal weaknesses 
pointed out by business men in the Consular Service and felt 
by the Department of State. Not only was the amount in¬ 
adequate, so far as salaries were concerned, but inadequate in the 
number of employees that could be had. Now, there are two fac¬ 
tors there to be considered in reference to present conditions. Cost 
of living has risen all over the world. Services are vastly more 
expensive to-day than they ever were before. In the effort to 
Americanize the service, we have to pay very much more for an 
American than we have to pay for a foreigner, and we have to pay 
vastly more to-dav for an American than we did in 1914. 

Mr. Sabath. As to the living conditions there, the same thing 
is true of salaries for the clerks as for consuls, vice consuls, and so 
on, it costs them more to live. 

Mr. Carr. Except in this way, that the consuls, as we have just 
been saying, do receive some modest post allowance. The clerks 
receive no post allowance. 

Mr. Sabath. No allowance whatever? 

Mr. Carr. The salary is all that they receive. There is no addi¬ 
tional allowance of any kind or character. All the clerk receives 
in addition to his salary is his transportation to his post. So that 
you see in reference to clerks we have to provide not only for the 
increased cost of service but also for the increased cost of living. 
Then in addition to that we have to provide for the increased activi¬ 
ties of the service, thereby employing more clerks and many more 
than we did before, and that is a condition which has not terminated 
with the war and will not terminate with the war. Two reasons 
alone may be given. Since 1914 we have acquired and now detached 
from the transport service, 5,000,000 tons or more of shipping under 
the American flag, which instead of plying between the United 
States and England and France, is now going out to all the ports of 
the world. Those vessels, all of them, require the services of con¬ 
suls. Their seamen have to be shipped and discharged and paid off, 
and when they become destitute they have to be provided for by the 
consuls. A considerable amount of financing of Shipping Board con¬ 
trolled vessels is done by consular officers, which requires a great deal 
of very responsible work, which we did not have at all in 1914. 

Mr. Houghton. What was your appropriation in 1914 ? 

Mr. Carr. Our appropriation in 1914 was $375,000: 1915, $375,000; 
1916, $493,000; 1917, $493,000; 1918, $818,000; 1919, $993,000; and in 
1920, $1,200,000. 

Mr. Sabath. You are now asking for the same amount? 

Mr. Carr. The same amount. 

Mr. Houghton. And you can hardly compare the conditions of 
1914 with the conditions now ? 

Mr. Carr. There is no comparison Mr. Houghton. 

Mr. Houghton. I mean you have multiplied your appropriation 
by 3| or 4. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 


168 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Houghton. That means, of course, an increase not only for 
additional men, but additional amounts of salary. 

Mr. Care. Quite so. 

Mr. Houghton. So there has been an increase? 

Mr. Carr. In the amount of salary? 

Mr. Houghton. In the amount of salary. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. There has been an increase in the amount of 
salary. I think some statistics on that subject would be of interest 
to the committee. Now, out of the clerks in the service paid out of 
this fund there are 888 at the present time, or at least when this 
estimate was made up, ranging in salary from a few hundred dollars 
a year—$200, or $800, or $100—up to $4,500. There are only seven 
of them receiving more than $8,000, and those seven are special cases 
where we had to pay men of specially high qualifications from this 
fund for some special duty. But in 1914 I think I can safely sav 
that we did not have anybody paid above $2,500, and comparatively 
few people paid as much as $2,500. 

Mr. Houghton. I want to call attention to the fact that you are 
taking care of additional shipping. Some attention has been paid to 
that owing to increases in appropriations. 

Mr. Carr. In this matter I was only talking about individual sala¬ 
ries. But that increase in the amount of salary paid the individual 
of course has been due to the increased value of service as compared 
with 1914, which is based on the increased cost of living. 

Mr. Sabath. Did we not vote in 1917 or 1918 an increase to the 
clerks ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Sabath. From $125,1 think, to $150, and the other classes ac¬ 
cordingly ? 

Mr. Carr. You voted an increase from $375,000 in 1914 to $1,200,- 
000 in 1920. But I should say a large part of that would be in 
salaries alone, necessary in order to keep the people we have or to 
get people of equal ability. Then the activities of the service have 
expanded enormously. One of the first considerations in certain 
parts of the world during the war of course were the different 
duties growing out of the War Trade Board regulations, and other 
special duties concerned with foreign affairs. Now that peace has 
come, while those activities have ceased, as I am trying to make clear, 
there has been released more than 5,000,000 tons of American ship¬ 
ping under the American flag going out into all parts of the world, 
and it is going to require not only all of the clerical service which 
we had during the war, but it is entirely conceivable that we shall 
have to have even more to make the Consular Service meet the re¬ 
quirements. 

Mr. Sabath. What do you mean, that the Government released 
that or acquired that? 

Mr. Carr. We acquired, mostly by construction, about 5,000,000 
tons of shipping between 1914, I think, and the present time. That 
was mainly, as you know, used during the war in either carrying 
food and supplies for the soldiers or soldiers themselves; and now, 
having been released from that, those ships are turned out into the 
merchant service to carry merchandise to all parts of the world. 
Vessels are going to Europe, South Africa, Asia, South America, 
and elsewhere. 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


169 


Mr. Sabath. Under the American fla <>• ? 

Mr. Carr. Under the American flag. Now every American vessel— 
every vessel under the American flag—when it arrives at a foreign port 
has to report to the consular officer, deposits its papers there, if there 
are any seamen to be discharged, to be shipped, any sick seamen to be 
taken care of, these duties must be performed by the American con¬ 
sul, and if any disputes arise between the sailors and the masters of 
vessels they are to be settled before the consular officer. And if any 
seaman becomes destitute or is left behind by his boat, he has to be 
provided for and sent home or employment obtained for him on 
board another vessel by' the American consul. 

Mr. Sabath. The La Toilette Act has added a great deal of work 
to the service? 

Mr. Carr. The La Toilette Act has added a great deal of work to 
the service. The main addition, however, is increased trade activity 
and increased shipping under the American flag. You see, before the 
war, before the enlargement of our shipping, it was a rare sight to 
see an American flag in most of the foreign ports. Now we have got 
6,000,000 tons of shipping in the foreign trade—more than that, in 
fact—and henceforth our flag will be seen all over the world, and 
wherever one of those boats touches it is bound to make a lot of work 
for our consuls. 

Mr. Houghton. Your position then is, Mr. Carr, that although the 
war is ended, and although the war necessity for all this additional 
clerk hire has ceased to exist, nevertheless there is enough new work 
to justify asking for the same appropriation now that you asked a 
year ago? 

Mr. Carr. There is not only enough new work to justify it, there 
is enough new work of a very vital character to make it imperative. 

Mr. Rogers. Roughly speaking, Mr. Carr, would it be accurate to 
say, comparing the situation to-day with the situation in 1914, that 
the number of clerks has doubled and the average Salary has also 
doubled ? 

Mr. Carr. I think that is about a fair statement. 1 have not the 
exact figures before me. The salary has very greatly increased. 

Mr. Rogers. There is provision in the law, is there not, that no 
clerk shall be hired to work at an American consulate at a salary 
of more than $1,000 who is not an American citizen? 

Mr. Carr. Y es. 

Mr. Rogers. Do you know what proportion of these 800 or 900 
clerks are in fact not American citizens? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. sir. Of the clerks we employ there are 386 
Americans and 457 not Americans. 

Mr. Rogers. All of the latter clerks, in order to be within the law, 
must receive a salary of less than $1,000? 

Mr. Carr. Yes; only the clerks who are Americans receive salaries 
above $1,000 a year. 

Mr. Rogers. And they go back prior to 1906? 

Mr. Carr. Prior to the enactment of the reorganization law of 
1906, which placed them at a maximum salary of $1,000 a year. 
The following are the salaries paid: Torty-eight received from $800 
to $899; 48 received from $700 to $799; 66 received from $600 to 
$699; 58 received $500 to $599; and 106 received less than $499. 


170 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Rogers. Do those $500, $G00, and $700 clerks give their entire 
time to the occupation? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. That is quite different from the scale that prevails 
in Washington. 

'Mr. Carr. You can sometimes get a native at a very small com¬ 
pensation in comparison with what a man of the same qualifications 
would demand in America. 

Mr. Rogers. Our service is both diplomatic and consular. Is 
there much more completely a native service than is the practice of 
our rivals? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. One of the great complaints made against the 
British service, I know, is that it employes a great many foreigners, 
but the British are going very strongly toward an entirely British 
service. As a matter of fact, that is one of the principles on which 
they are at present acting, and one of the reasons for the larger ap¬ 
propriations. We are far in advance, and have been of every other 
nation in the completeness of the nationalization of our service, and 
I think it is a very desirable thing. I think, however, that, in view 
of the increased cost of living abroad, we ought to consider changing 
the maximum amount to be paid to the foreigner. 

Mr. Rogers. That is in the next item ? 

Mr. Carr. That is in the next item. 

Mr. Rogers. Before we leave this item I should like to ask one 
further question relative to the method of appointing these 900 clerks. 
They are appointed without civil-service requirement of any kind, 
are they not? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. Is there any reason why clerks at consulates and, in 
an earlier part of the bill, clerks at embassies and legations should 
not be put upon a civil-service basis ? 

Mr. Carr. In so far as the appointment of clerks from the United 
States is concerned—I mean sending clerks from the United States 
abroad—I really do not see that there is. In several respects it 
would be a good thing and make for a higher standard. 

Mr. Rogers. Is the practice—and T do not refer to this administra¬ 
tion or to that administration—is the general practice to appoint 
clerks upon considerations which include partisan motives? 

Mr. Carr. No; I think it can not be said exactly that appointments 
are based on partisan motives. Occasionally that perhaps might be 
said in an individual instance, but generally speaking I think it may 
be said that the majority of the appointments are unquestionably 
made with the desire to give fitness the preponderance. 

Mr. Smith of Illinois. Are you speaking now of the appointment 
of American citizens or of foreigners? 

Mr. Carr. I am speaking of the appointment of American citizens. 
In the appointment abroad, the appointment is never based on any¬ 
thing except what is believed to be actual worth in the service. 

Mr. Rogers. When a Republican administration is succeeded by a 
Democratic administration, or vice versa, is there any suggestion 
of cleaning out of the clerks for party reasons and putting a new 
group representing the new party in power? 

Mr. Carr. There has been only one such situation since the service 
was placed upon a merit basis, and that was the situation that arose 





DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 171 

in 1913, when the Democratic administration came to Washington, 
and m that case there was no removal of either principals or sub¬ 
ordinates in the foreign service, other than heads of missions, 
ministers, and ambassadors. The clerical force was left entirely as 
^ ^ as * Only the vacancies were filled by the administration, and 
while at first there was a disposition perhaps to give considerable 
weight to the political belief of some of the indorsers, it soon ceased 
to be a matter of any great consequence, and it practically ceased 
to figure to any considerable extent in the appointments. 

Mr. Rogers. In the appointment of all clerks? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. Are there any other questions? 

Mr. Houghton, ^ou appoint now without regard to politics? 

Mr. Carr. \es; I think it can be safely said that we appoint 
generally without any regard to politics. 

Mr. Smith of Illinois. Being a Democrat is no bar? 

Mr. Carr. Being a Democrat is no bar, and having Republican 
indorsements is no bar, as we can show by our records. 

Mr. Sabath. In view of the question asked you by the chairman, 
were there any dismissals from the office when the Democratic ad¬ 
ministration came into power of clerks or valuable employees in your 
service ? 

Mr. Carr. No. 

Mr. Sabatii. All then were treated according to the services which 
they rendered? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Mason. They did not pay a very great attention, Mr. Sabath, 
to the letter of Mr. Bryan looking for a place for—what was it, Mr. 
Carr—worthy Democrats? 

Mr. Rogers. “ Deserving Democrats ” was the exact phrase. 

Mr. Sabath. The very fact that sometimes a man is indorsed by 
a man in public life should not bar him from being appointed to 
public office if he is otherwise qualified. 

Mr. Mason. No. 

Mr. Sabath. Will you bear with me for a moment. Vice consuls 
are taken, as a rule, from the clerks, are they not, or, in other Avords, 
after you haA r e had a clerk in the service for many years, and you 
have found him to be a capable and efficient man. there is a chance 
for promotion, is there not? 

Mr. Carr. That does not describe precisely the situation. 

Mr. Sabath. Will you kindly- 

Mr. Carr. Yes; if I may. There are two kinds of vice consuls. 
There is a vice consul who enters the service after examination, at 
a salary of $2,500. called a vice consul of career. Once in the service, 
he may be promoted on merit, up through the three grades of vice 
consuls into the grade of consul, and on up as far as his merits will 
carry him. 

There is another kind of vice consul, not of career, which is an 
office usually combined with that of clerk. In other words, we em¬ 
ploy a clerk in an office, let us say at Liverpool, and in order to en¬ 
able him to sign papers and take charge of the office and run it in 
the absence of his principal he is gAen a commission as vice consul. 
Now, it is customary with all senior clerks, at least in consulates 
with more than one clerk in a consulate, to give them commissions 



172 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPKIATION BILL. 


as vice consul. They would not be promoted, in the way regular 
consuls are without first undergoing an examination. 

Mr. Sabath. What I had in mind was that these clerks, having 
had years of experience, naturally become familiar with the duties 
and become more efficient, and I was wondering whether the service 
could not improve by making it possible for some of these clerks who 
have shown ability to give them the chance for promotion in that 
way? 

Mr. Carr. There is a very considerable number of clerks in the 
service who come before the examining board when they are in the 
United States to take the examination for promotion, and there is a 
considerable number of men in the service—and very excellent men, 
too—who began their careers as clerks in the service, who came up 
before the board of examiners and took their examination and I 
passed, and were then appointed vice consuls of career. 

Mr. Sabath. And that is generally known to people that they have i 
that opportunity and chance if they devote themselves to their duties ?. 

Mr. Carr. Yes; any clerk whose record is good may upon appli-l! 
cation receive a designation for examination. 

Mr. Rogers. How many vice consuls of career are there now? 

Mr. Carr. Forty-eight, I think. 

Mr. Rogers. They have all been appointed within some three years! 
have they not? 

Mr. Carr. They have been appointed since July 1, 1919. 

Mr. Mason. How far does the Japanese political power extend in 
Korea, for instance, for the purpose of accepting and rejecting our 
diplomatic representatives there—ministers or consuls? 

Mr. Carr. The Japanese sovereignty extends over all of Korea, 
but we have no diplomatic representative in Korea. Our diplo¬ 
matic representation is at Tokyo. We have a consul general in 
Korea who receives recognition from the Japanese Government. 

Mr. Mason. So that practically Japan is sovereign over Korea? 

Mr. Carr. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Rogers. Can yon give us, Mr. Carr, without too much ex¬ 
amination, the total number of consuls general and of consuls in the 
service ? 

Mr. Carr. Consuls general,, class 1 ($12,000), 2; consuls general, 
class 2 ($8,000), 13; consuls general, class 3 ($6,000), 3; consuls 
general, class 4 ($5,500), 26; consuls, class 1 ($8,000), 1: consuls, 
class 2 ($6,000), 1; consuls, class 3 ($5,000), 9; consuls, class 4 
($4,500), 23; consuls, class 5 ($4000), 58; consuls, class 6 ($3,500),* 
117; consuls, class 7 ($3,000), 77; consuls, class 8 ($2,500), 18; con¬ 
suls, class 9 ($2,000), 2. 

There is only one at present under class 9, one having resigned 
recently. Of consuls generals at large we have provided for seven 
and we have only five at the present moment. 

Mr. Rogers. Consuls general at large? 

Mr. Carr. Consuls general at large. 

Vice consuls of career, 2, at $3,000; vice consuls of career, 46, at 
$2,500. 

Mr. Rogers. Does your comment on the propriety of appointing 
American citizens as clerks to consulates after civil-service examina¬ 
tion apply also to the appointment of clerks to embassies and lega¬ 
tions after civil-service examination ? 





DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 173 

Mr. Carr. I really do not see why there should be any difference. 

Mr. Rogers. Clerks to legations must be American citizens under 
the law as I recall it. 

Mr. Carr. Oh, yes; as a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, if you 
will permit .a general observation, I think that we have to proceed 
I i n the future on the principle of bringing our entire foreign service, 

■ both diplomatic and consular, into one coordinated organization, cov¬ 
ered as far as possible by the same rules. I think there are very 
strong reasons for that, and I think we make a mistake if we do 
not do it, and that would lead me to apply the same rules to all 
clerical positions of the service. 

Mr. Smith of Illinois. You make the point that the service will 
i be impaired unless you can increase the salaries of the various em¬ 
ployees. Now, I would like to know the status of the eligible list 
of the employees, whether or not there are many young men aspiring 
to get into the service at the present time ? 

Mr. Carr. The difficulty is, Mr. Smith, that we can not get enough. 

Mr. Smith of Illinois. Can not get enough? 

Mr. Carr. No. I forget how many names there are on the consular 
eligible list, but I think I am safe in saying that there are not more 
1 than four or five, something of that sort. We had approximately 
150 positions created by Congress last year of vice consuls at $2,50*0 
I a year. You see from what I have told you that we have appointed 
j only about 16 or 48. 

Mr. Smith of Illinois. I just wanted to know the condition of the 
eligibility list. 

Mr. Carr. We are having an examination on the 19th of this 
month for consular assistants, student interpreters, vice consuls, and 
consuls. In the student interpreter branch of the service in China 
i we have just recently changed our rules based upon the action of 
Congress last year raising the entrance salary from $1,000 to $1,500 
a year, plus quarters and plus tuition. So far as I know there has 
been no scramble for those places thus far. As a matter of fact, the 
conditions surrounding the consular service are utterly different 
from those which prevailed in 1906, when the service was reorgan¬ 
ized. In 1906 we had coming up for examination a large number 
of men of very high qualifications. A number of those men are in 
the service to-day. Some of those have resigned to accept better posi¬ 
tions in private employment. But the general character of men, with 
exceptions, of course, is not nearly so high to-day among the can¬ 
didates as the character of men who came up in 1906, and it is due to 
these conditions that I have been talking about before the committee, 
the fact of the great demand for high-class service, the greater price 
which commercial organizations will pay for it, the increased cost 
of living, and the low price which the Government pays for high- 
grade service. 

Mr. Smith of Illinois. The purpose of my inquiry was simply to 
bring out the fact, if it is a fact, that the eligibility list is not suffi¬ 
cient to maintain the present corps. 

Mr. Carr. We have a number of people on the eligible list for 
consul for whom there were no vacancies, and we offered them tempo¬ 
rarily positions as vice consuls of career at $2,500 a year and a num¬ 
ber of those men sent in their declinations. 




174 


DIPLOMATIC AXD CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Temple. Mr. Carr. I find sometimes an impression on the part 
of the people who would like to go into the service that there are op¬ 
portunities to add to their income by commercial connections at the 
same time that they are employed in the Consular Service. 

Mr. Carr. Nobody in the regular service of the Consular Service— 
and I am speaking now of a person employed on a salary- 

Mr. Temple. Including clerks? 

Mr. Carr. Including clerks, is permitted to devote his time to out¬ 
side business, if we know anything about it. He is expected to earn 
his salary, and he is expected to work a stipulated number of hours 
a day. 

Mr. Sabath. Looking through the Congressional Record, I find 
that Czechoslovakia is not given, that it has no consul. 

Mr. Mason. Neither has Ireland. 

Mr. Carr. Yes; we have a minister and a consul at Prague. 

Mr. Sabath. It is not here. All the other countries are given. 

Mr. Carr. Perhaps that list has not been corrected to date. But 
we sent a minister to Czechoslovakia July 1. 

Mr. Sabath. The minister is given, Mr. Crane, but it does not 
show that they have any consul in Czechoslovakia. 

Mr. Carr. Yes; we have had a consul there since some time last 
summer, at Prague. 

Mr. Sabath. It must have been an omission, if the names were 
given to the printers, I presume. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

ALIEN EMPLOYEES. 

Mr. Rogers. Shall we proceed to the new item relating to the 
salaries of alien employees of the Consular Service. Will you make 
a statement on that, Mr. Carr ? 

Mr. Carr. The reason that is submitted is that we have a great deal 
of difficulty in getting a sufficient number of people who have the 
linguistic knowledge to take the place of the foreign clerks in the 
service. We are limited by law to $1,000 for any foreign clerk. 
The conditions under which the law was enacted in 1906 have 
entirely changed. It has been demonstrated here, as is well known 
to you gentlemen, that living expenses in Europe have increased 
enormously, and it is absolutely necessary in any consulate in a 
country where English is not in general use that there should be 
some employees acquainted with local conditions and particularly 
with a knowledge of local languages. 

Every Government employs people of that character. To send a 
man for instance to Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, or some of 
those countries with only a knowledge of English, or in some of 
those countries where a number of languages are spoken, with only a 
knowledge of one, as is true in most cases with American officers, 
is to leave him entirely blind in many respects. He must have the aid 
of people who can in the first place help to interview visitors, who 
can translate documents, who can read newspapers, and do many 
other things which only a person familiar with the language can 
do. And this suggested appropriation is not for the purpose of 
increasing the personnel, the clerical forces, of the Consular Service, 
so much as it is to retain in places where they are believed to be im 
portant tested employees with adequate knowledge of foreign lan¬ 
guages. 








DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 175 

Mr. Dickinson. This item is a new item in the bill? 

Mr. Carr. This is a new item in the bill. 

Mr. Rogers. It is almost certain to go out on a point of order, 
Mr. Carr. 

Mr. Carr. I was wondering, if it is objectionable in that respect, 
whether the paragraph immediately preceding it could be so modi¬ 
fied as to include the substance of the proposed paragraph. 

Mr. Dickinson. You would get that so that would be subject to 
a point of order also. 

Mr. Rogers. We have the right to increase amounts. We can 
increase that previous item by $50,000. Is that your suggestion? 

Mr. Carr. Not so much to increase, although it is desirable, as to 
change the language of the preceding paragraph so as to make the 
minimum salary $1,500. 

Mr. Rogers. That would be equally subject to a point of order. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. Which do you prefer? 

Mr. Carr. We had better leave it in the present form. 

Mr. Rogers. I think it is fairly certain that some one will make a 
point of order on this appropriation, even if the committee accepts it. 

Mr. Sabath. Could you not get around the difficulty and be able 
to aid the department by saying that the salary should be $1,500, 
but that not more than 6, 8, or 10 persons should receive the $1,500, 
and that not more than 4 or 5 should receive $2,000? 

Mr. Carr. As to that I was suggesting that if this paragraph were 
objectionable, perhaps a brief paragraph amendatory of the pre- 
;ceding section might be less objectionable by merely raising the limit 
on the amount expended in the individual cases say to $1,500, or 
whatever figure Congress desired, and leave out the increase of 
appropriation entirely. 

Mr. Dickinson. I think that would be new legislation. 

Mr. Carr. It is not the appropriation we want so much as it is the 
power of keeping the persons who are efficient. 

Mr. Temple. Is there any law now that forbids the employment 
of aliens as clerks? 

Mr. Carr. Above $1,000. 

Mr. Rogers. Unless in the service in 1906. 

Mr. Carr. We can not employ aliens—make a new employment of 
'any alien at more than $1,000 a year—and we can not increase the 
'compensation of an alien to more than $1,000 a year if he was em¬ 
ployed since the law of 1906 was passed. 

Mr. Temple. Any modification of the law in the appropriation 
would be subject to a point of order. 

Mr. Moores. Is that law in the appropriation bill? 

Mr. Carr. That was a part of the reorganization act of 1906. 

Mr. Moores. It is not in the appropriation bill ? 

Mr. Carr. Statutory; not in the appropriation bill. 

Mr. Rogers. Any other question on this paragraph ? The next two 
paragraphs relate to salaries of interpreters, and so on. They stood 
in the law unchanged for a number of years, I think, have they not? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. Are there any questions on either of those two para¬ 
graphs? 



176 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Dickinson. Let me ask, Have you a pamphlet covering this 
organic law as it now stands up to somewhere near the present date 
that you can send to the members of the Foreign Affairs Committee— 
the reorganization law of 1906? 

Mr. Carr. Yes; I can give you a pamphlet containing the law, and 
I can give you all these regulations in the form of a pamphlet. 

Mr. Dickinson. I would appreciate very much if you would send 
that to me. 

Mr. Rogers. The annual register of the Department of State con¬ 
tains all that information. 

Mr. Carr. There is no copy printed so far this j 7 ear. 

Mr. Rogers. The last one is 1918. 

Mr. Dickinson. I have never received that. 

Mr. Carr. I would be glad to send it. 


PRISONS FOR AMERICAN CONVICTS. 


Mr. Rogers. The next change recommended is to add an assistant 
deputy marshal, at $800, to the force in connection with the Shanghai 
prison. 

Mr. Carr. That was before the committee last year, and I am sorry 
to say the appropriation was not made. The deputy marshal is the 
jailer in Shanghai. We have, as you doubtless know, a jail for 
American convicts convicted in the United States Court for China. 
The jail is looked after by the deputy marshal. He can not be there 
all the time, naturally, so we would like to have an assistant deputy 
marshal to be there part of the time instead of some less-important 
person—clerk or messenger or someone who might be less dependable. 

Mr. Temple. What sort of a man could be secured for $800? 

Mr. Moores. A Chinaman. 

Mr. Carr. Exactly. 

Mr. Moores. Nobody else could. 

Mr. Carr. Mr. Lay suggests that this item was carried in the 
former legislation under the title of jailer. 

Mr. Rogers. T am going to read a few lines from the letter of the 
Secretary of State, pages 9 and 10 [reading] : 












When the prison at Shanghai was. by the act of April 15, 1918, placed 
under tlie charge of the United States marshal for China, the positions of 
jailer and assistant jailer were abolished, and in lieu thereof a salary for a 
deputy marshal at .$1,200 was provided. No provision, however, was made 
for an assistant or second deputy, and as it is necessary that there be two 
such officers in order that one may at all times be on guard as jailer, it was 
recommended in the estimates of last year that provision be made for a second 
marshal at a salary of $800. No appropriation having been made therefor, 
this item is again submitted in the present estimates, with the recommendation 
that it be allowed for the fiscal year 1921. 

Now, when Judge Lobingier was before the committee in October, 
he suggested a further amendment of this paragraph to go in after 
line 3 [reading] : 

For keeping, feeding, and transporting to suitable institutions located in 
places under the sovereignty of the United States long-term prisoners in 
( hina, ( hosen, Siam, and Turkey, and persons convicted or declared insane 
by the United States court for China or any of its officials. $9,000. 


/ 








DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 177 

That is in substance what is now in-lines 4, 5, and 0 [reading]: 

Provided however , That a prisoner so transported shall continue under the 
jurisdiction of said court until the expiration of his sentence, unless sooner 
discharged by due process of law. 

Do you think there is any particular importance or value in that 
change ? 

Mr. Carr. I think the judge feels that there is. I myself can not 
say how much importance should be attached to it, but my recollec¬ 
tion is that the judge holds that that is precisely the situation with 
regard to judges of courts in the United States, that they have juris¬ 
diction over prisoners convicted in their courts until the expiration 
of the sentences, and that he feels it is desirable that he should have, 
as judge of the United States Court for China, the same sort of au¬ 
thority instead of turning them over to the custody of the head of 
the prison. 

Mr. Rogers. If there are no further questions on that item we 
| will proceed to the two items on 27. Those are old items, unchanged, 

| are they not? 

RELIEF AND PROTECTION OF AMERICAN SEAMEN. 

Mr. Carr. I would just like to comment for one moment on the 
item beginning on page 27, line 12, “ relief and protection of Ameri- 
j can seamen.” It will be noticed that the amount is $100,000, and 
| what I would like to call attention to is that the expenditure for 
the last fiscal year ending June 30, 1919, was almost 140,000, and I 
would like to say further that for the next fiscal year I think it very 
probable that the expenditure will be quite as large, if not more, be¬ 
cause of the fact that, as I mentioned a moment ago, we are going to 
have a great many American-owned ships in the merchant marine 
plying to various ports of the world, and unquestionably there will 
be a considerable bill for the relief and protection of seamen on 
: those vessels, so that I think we can safely say there will be a de¬ 
ficiency in this item if the appropriation be made at only $100,000. 

Mr. Temple. Due to the increase in our shipping rather than to 
any other cause? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. And it is well to bear in mind there, too, that 
this relief and protection afforded American seamen at the expense 
of the Government is not optional with the Department of State 
or the consular service. It is required by law Avhen a given state 
of affairs occurs, as, for example, when a seaman in a destitute con¬ 
dition comes upon a consulate and has to have food, clothing, and 
medical attendance, the consul, finding that condition to exist, is 
bound by law to afford that assistance and the Government by 
statute to pay the bill if the seaman can not be sent home on 
board a vessel—that is, if he can not be found employment on 
board a vessel coming to the United States then the consul is re¬ 
quired to send him to the United States to the port from which he 
shipped, or to a nearby port, at the expense of the Government. 
And likewise when a wreck occurs, and the shipwrecked seaman 
comes upon the consulate, the consul is bound to find employment or 
send him home at the expense of the Government, and relieve him 
besides. 

161477—20-12 




178 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Moores. Is that given to passengers as well as seamen that are 
shipwrecked ? 

Mr. Carr. No; it only applies to American seamen. It does not 
apply to passengers. There is at present no fund from which j 
American citizens abroad, no matter what their distress may be, can 
be afforded relief at the expense of the Government. 

Mr. Rogers. Are there any further questions down to the contin- ! 
gent expenses item, beginning on line 24 ? Suppose you make a 
statement on the contingent expenses item, Mr. Carr. 

CONTINGENT EXPENSES, UNITED STATES CONSULATES. 

Mr. Carr. We are asking for no increase under this item, and do 
not see just how we can forecast very much of a decrease, if any. 
We spent last year $1,101,901, $223,901 above the appropriation that 
we had, that excess being paid out of the President’s fund, because 
it was incurred for things that w T ere properly payable out of that 
fund, and we did not have a consular service in Turkey, in Austria, 
in Hungary, in Germany, or in Russia, except Siberia. Now, we I 
can certainly count upon a resumption of our service in Germany ! 
to the extent of perhaps 20 or 25 offices, a resumption in Austria and 
in Hungary, a very much increased service in the Balkan States, an 
increased and very expensive service in Turkey. It is entirely prob- \ 
able that before the expiration of the next fiscal year we shall have 
our consular officers back in Russia; in fact we have officers at 
Odessa, Tiflis, and Novorossisk, and at each place there is a very 
considerable staff, more than we would have required in the prewar 
period. That is going to cost a very great deal of money, and I am 
unable at the present time to tell how much, but I ask you to con¬ 
sider this request for a repetition of the appropriation iast year in 
connection with those new things that were not paid for last year, 
but will have to be provided for next year. 

Mr. Rogers. Did you say that last year you spent $1,100,000 ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. How much of that in excess of the appropriation ? 

Mr. Carr. $223,000. For the current year you gave us $1,000,000. 

Mr. Rogers. The appropriation in our act for 1919 was $828,000. 
Did you have a deficiency ? 

Mr. Carr. No; $878,000. 

Mr. Rogers. $828,000 was carried in the act. 

Mr. Carr. There was a subsequent appropriation of $50,000 in the 
deficiency bill, which made $878,000, and then we spent $223,000 in 
addition to that, which was paid out of the national security and 
defense fund. 

Mr. Ackerman. May I ask a question there? How much in round 
figures did you pay out for the compensation of Chinese writers, as 
mentioned in the paragraph? What are they, interpreters? 

Mr. Carr. No; this writer is not an interpreter. He is a clerk 
employed very largely for the purpose of doing the Chinese writing, 
in the same way that we employ a stenographer and copyist for 
writing English. American citizens who acquire the Chinese lan¬ 
guage in the legation in Peking rarely acquire sufficient proficiency 
in writing Chinese to enable them to" do it with facility, although 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


179 


they have acquired sufficient facility in the reading of Chinese to 
enable them to determine whether a letter is correctly written and 
whether it expresses what they wish to express. 

Mr. Ackerman. You have an interpreter to talk and the other 
one to write? 

Mr. Carr. That is about it. The writers take dictation in Chinese 
and transcribe it in copy for signature. All Governments employ 
Chinese writers, and so does the Chinese Government itself. 

Mr. Ackerman. About how much do you have to pay in the aggre¬ 
gate, the lump sum—$10,000? 

Mr. Carr. I do not think I have the figures for that, Mr. Acker¬ 
man. 

Mr. Ackerman. I would like that, if it does not take too much of 
your time. 

Mr. Carr. Apparently during the year ending June 30, 1919, we 
spent only $1,500 exclusively for this purpose. Consequently a large 
amount of work ordinarily done by Chinese writers must have been 
done by Chinese clerks. 

Mr. Rogers. The biggest items are for rent and telegrams? 

Mr. Carr. These items are for rent, telegrams, and loss by ex¬ 
change. The other items are comparatively small. 

Mr. Rogers. Have you those figures? 

Mr. Carr. Telegrams, $345,477; loss by exchange, $135,200; rent 
of offices, $188,800. 

Now, taking them up in their order, I do not believe that we shall 
expend anywhere near $345,000 for telegrams in the next fiscal year, 
but we shall need the money, in my opinion, for the expenses of other 
offices in these other countries that we have been speaking of. Thus 
there will be approximately 25 fairly expensive offices in Germany, 
a considerable number in Turkey, and particularly in the places 
where we expect our future trade to be located and where our inter¬ 
ests will have to have protection. So that I think it can safely bev 
said that we will easily need that amount of money for the mainte¬ 
nance of that branch of the service. 

The loss by exchange we can not tell anything about. We simply 
have to pay the bill when it comes in, using our best endeavors by 
good management to reduce it as much as we can. 

The rent of offices is another thing over which we have only a 
limited control. I think it is the view of Congress and of this com¬ 
mittee that American consular offices abroad should be at least repre¬ 
sentative, should be large enough for the officers, and should be 
located in proper quarters, in an appropriate section of the cities in 
which they are situated. 

Mr. S a bath. So that they can be found ? 

Mr Carr. So that they can be found and so that Americans going 
there will be proud of them when they find them, and so that they 
will be respected by the native people who come in contact with 
them; and in itself the proper location of an office is worth an 
incalculable amount to the trade of the United States. If we send 
our foreign buyers and our foreign sellers into a back street, in a 
secluded place, to find the American consulate, and on the other hand 
the British or the German consul has a very handsome suite of 
offices on one of the best streets, we are likely to rouse in the mind 
of the foreign trader a thought whether after all it is not more worth 


180 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


while to trade with the British or the Germans than it is to trade 
with us. 

So ever since T have been in charge of this service I have tried to 
emphasize proper quarters, dignified quarters, in a proper part of 
the city, and furnishing the offices according to the best American 
standards in business offices, and I think it is money very well spent. 

Mr. Houghton. Are you spending part of this money in new 
equipment ? 

Mr. Carr. We have not spent money in new equipment because for 
the last five years we could not handle new equipment; we could not 
ship furniture abroad. But it is entirely probable that we shall have 
to spend a good deal in new equipment, especially in the countries 
where we are reopening offices. We do not know what will be neces¬ 
sary there until we get into the countries and find out the condition 
in which our offices are at present. 

One word more on matter of rent—rents are increasing practically j 
everywhere in the world instead of decreasing. In the period of 
January 1, 1918, to January 1, 1920, we have had a total of $56,074 
in increases and only about $11,000 in decreases in rent, a net increase, ! 
in other words, of the rent item alone in that period of $44,973, and 
that is to a very considerable extent a matter of increase in cost of 
quarters, to say nothing about the increase in the extent of the quar¬ 
ters. At nearly every seaport where there is either a great deal of 
shipping or a great deal of emigration or a great deal of vise work, we 
shall have to have in our minds the question of increasing the extent 
of our quarters; in other words, enlarging them. Already we have 
had several requests from offices abroad to the effect that the quarters 
in which they were working are entirely too cramped and that they 
could not do their work, and they would have to expand, and that is 
particularly going to be found at seaports where there is a good deal 
of shipping and a great deal of vise or other work of that sort, so 
that we can figure on another increase in the rent item, and besides 
Ave have to bear in mind also that the rent item which Avas not in¬ 
cluded in these expenditures for last year is going to be very con¬ 
siderable in all of the countries that I have been speaking of where 
we have to resume our consular representation. 

Mr. Rogers. Any other questions on this item? 

Mr. Sabath. On that point I would like to ask Mr. Carr a ques¬ 
tion. Mr. Carr, is there real cooperation between the Consular 
SerA 7 ice and our trade commissioners? 

Mr. Carr. I think there is pretty fair cooperation in the field; 
there is pretty good cooperation here in Washington: that is, betAveen 
the Department of Commerce and the Department of State. 

Mr. Sabath. That is what I had in mind. 

Mr. Carr. There is a fundamental question of very great impor¬ 
tance which was dwelt on in the hearings during the last few days, 
and that is the very great importance of focusing more than at 
present the contact with foreign fields through the State Depart¬ 
ment, making more of our diplomacy in our foreign commerce. 

Mr. Sabath. Do you think diplomacy can bring about greater 
commercial relationship than the trade commission under the De¬ 
partment of Commerce? 

Mr. Carr. It is a different kind of thing, Mr. Sabath. Diplomacy 
can lay the foundation for millions and millions of trade by one 








DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


181 


achievement, whereas the trade commission will get at the thing in. 
an entirely different way, and will get at an entirely different prob¬ 
lem, which is the dealing with specific commodities, with markets in: 
particular places for specific things, and our ability to compete in 
those things with other nations. The diplomatic branch of the Gov¬ 
ernment will deal with it in an entirely different way by dealing 
with the fundamental conditions under which trade is carried on, 
the relationship of the nations, the interposition of obstacles to con¬ 
cessions to other nations which may be to our disadvantage; and in 
one achievement may change the whole trade situation between the 
United States and another country for a generation. The latter 
is fundamental, the former relates to the details of trade. The mat¬ 
ter has really been gone into much more ably by Mr. Lay before the 
committee in the last few days. 

Mr. SAbatit. What committee? 

Mr. Carr. This committee. 

Mr. Rogers. That was very fullv covered. 

Mr. Sabath. Then I will not take up your time any more. But I 
do not agree that it has been gone into in an abler manner than you 
can do. 

Mr. Carr. You are very kind. 

Mr. Rogers. Mr. Carr, if there are no more questions on that item, 
the last item in the bill was fully covered by Dr. Rowe, and the only 
two remaining items are those relating to the seamen’s mission, $50, 
which is an old item, and the appropriation of $6,000 for the Com¬ 
mission for the Reeducation of War Cripples, which was carried for 
the first time, I think, in the current law. 

Mr. Carr. This item for the contribution to the Commission for 
the Reeducation of War Cripples, as I understand it, is an interna¬ 
tional obligation which we incurred by going in with a number of 
the allied nations in the discussion of the matter of the reeducation 
of the war cripples. It is a matter which was more fully presented 
to the committee last year by both the War Department and the 
Department of State, and I believe the necessity of this item would 
be covered entirely by that hearing. 

Mr. Rogers. It was very fully discussed, as you say, last year. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. Are there any questions on the remainder of that 
page ? If not, I should like to ask you about an appropriation which, 
I understand, was to be covered by a supplemental estimate 'relating 
to the enforcement of the passport-control act. 

Mr. Carr. That has not yet been sent up, Mr. Chairman, but will 
be to-morrow. 

Mr. Rogers. I think it is exceedingly important that that should 
be available at once and should be carried in this bill. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. Perhaps, Mr. Carr, it might be well, if you have it 
in mind, to tell us what the nature of the recommendation will be. 
I think it, perhaps, would be well if you will say a word upon it at 

this time. _ . . . , 

Mr. Carr. I would be glad to do so. It is an appropriation for 
the purpose of enforcing the act passed last summer for the exclu¬ 
sion of undesirable aliens from this country, aliens whose admission 
might be undesirable politically, who might hold views contrary to 



182 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

the welfare of this country, and exclude them by virtue of a vise 
control exercised by the consular officer at the point of departure. 
Congress has made an appropriation of $450,000 for the execution 
of that act from December to June 30, 1920. But the act by its 
terms remains in force until March 4, 1921, and there exists no 
adequate appropriation for the expenses of that work from July 
1,1920, until March 4,1921. The $450,000 will barely cover expenses 
up to June 1, 1920. 

The purpose of the money is for the increase of the clerical service 
in the consulates, an increased number of vice consuls, for the pur¬ 
pose of examining aliens who are coming to this country, and mak¬ 
ing such investigations as will reveal whether they are proper persons 
to come or not, and then handling their applications for permission 
to come, and, if it be found that they should come, applying the vise 
to the passports. 

It is the only way that the executive branch of the Government 
has thus far found to interpose any sort of effective check upon the 
admission to the United States of persons of undesirable political 
affiliations abroad, namely, the Bolsheviki, anarchists, and people of 
that sort. 

Mr. Rogers. What will be the amount of the estimate that you will _ 
submit ? 

Mr. Carr. I think the amount of the estimate will be $600,000, 
approximately, since that is the amount that Congress appropriated 
for carrying the work over practically the same time. I can not say 
exactly, because, I have not seen the estimate, but I think it will be 
somewhere in that neighborhood. 

Mr. Rogers. My recollection was that the estimate originally sub¬ 
mitted by the Department of State for the enforcement of this law 
contemplated $50,000 a month during the life of the law. As you 
say, that appropriation under the terms of the appropriating legis¬ 
lation lapses with June 30, and leaves a portion of the life of the 
law still uncared for, amounting to 8 months approximately, namely, 
from July 1 to March 4, 1921. If we should give you $50,000 times 
8, it would be $400,000. Would that not probably enable you to get 
along pretty well? 

Mr. Carr. We should I think have to answer that question in this 
way, that while we have no desire to spend one dollar more than is 
absolutely necessary to accomplish the result which Congress de¬ 
sires to accomplish, we have to count upon some factors that were 
perhaps not before us at the time the original estimate was made, 
namely, we have to count upon a considerably larger increase in 
immigration and therefore more expense in handling the problem 
than could be foreseen in August of this past year, when the original 
estimate was compiled. My recollection is that the number of aliens 
entering the country at present is something like 45,300 a month, 
which would be 543,000 a year. 

Mr. Rogers. It has risen as high as 53,000 a month. 

Mr. Carr. I thought so, Mr. Chairman, and so testified before 
this committee at one time, but the Bureau of Immigration went 
back on their figures. In September, they tell me, it was 45,300. 
That would be approximately 543,000 a year. 

Mr. Moores. The last year there must have been a very consider¬ 
able percentage of those aliens that came over that had served in the 
Army and would not have to have these consular certificates. 






DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 183 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Moores. There were a great many enlistments, of course. 

Mr. Carr. But it is not that class with which we are especially 
concerned. 

Mr. Moores. No, you could not exclude them if you wanted to. 
They would not have to be examined. 

Mr. Rogers. Take the case of an American resident, say, in 1914 
who went abroad to fight with the Italian Army as a reservist, and 
is later seeking to return to this country; he would be subjected to 
the requirements, would he not? 

Mr. Carr. As soon as the transport system was abolished, he 
would. Before the transport system was abolished they accepted 
them on board the transport without a certificate because the Army 
made the necessary examination. But since the transport system 
has ceased, my information is that they are subjected to the same 
tests as are other individuals. 

Mr. Moores. My only point was that the figures for the last year 
would not be any test for the next year. 

Mr. Carr. That is exactly my point, Mr. Moores, that the figures 
for last year do not indicate what the number may be for next year. 
Take July, for instance, the total number was 31,000; August, 32,000; 
September, 45,300. Now, they have not the exact figures for October, 
November, and December, and we can only conjecture what they 
actually are until they are all compiled. 

Mr. Moores. Returned Americans are not aliens coming in. The 
aliens coming in, that they speak of, are the aliens who enlisted in 
our Army and served abroad, and they are necessarily accepted. 
There would not be any list that did not contain Irishmen, Russians, 
and Poles that enlisted in the Army abroad. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Moores. And many of them came back that are domiciled 
here. 

Mr. Carr. According to the September figures, the annual number 
of aliens entering this country would be 543,000. According to the 
figures for 1914, I think the number of aliens entering this country 
was somewhere about 1,200,000 or 1,500,000. In other words, from 
two and one-half to three times the number that are now coming. So 
if we have to deal in the next fiscal year with anywhere near that 
number of aliens, we shall require more money than we are asking for 
for the remainder of the present fiscal year. 

Mr. Rogers. Of course, the act containing the literacy test has 
been passed, which no doubt tends to reduce the possible influx. 

Mr. Sabath. By about 35 per cent; that is, if the immigration 
continues to come* from the sections of the country whence it came 
before the war. 

Mr. Carr. Now, of course, on this point, Mr. Chairman, the ex¬ 
penses of this whole thing are practically paid, or more than paid, 
by the fees collected for the enforcement of the vise control act. 

Mr. Sabatii. In what way? 

Mr. Carr. Each person applying for a vise has to pay $2, $1 for 
the application and $1 for the vise, so that on 543,000 people the 
Government would receive fees of $1,086,000. 

Mr. Moores. It gets $8 per capita tax besides, so that the thing is 
a joke as far as expenses are concerned. 





184 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Carr. So that the expenses amount to very little. 

Mr. Sabath. What are the instructions about handling these ap¬ 
plications for passports? You call them passports? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. . 

Mr. Sabath. Must they all have the passport of the foreign Gov- 
ernment before they can be viseed ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Sabath. Is there a universal order of instructions sent out? 

Mr. Carr. That is a requirement everywhere, I think. It is with 

us. n 

Mr. Sabath. Must they first report to the department and then 
wait for that department over here to approve of the vise, or have 
they been given discretion from the beginning? They had no dis¬ 
cretion as I understand and they were obliged to send a report in each 
and every case and frequently people would be held in ports for two 
or three months before they could leave. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Sabath. But has that been removed? 

Mr. Carr. The disposition now is to place more and more responsi¬ 
bility upon the officer in the field? 

Mr. Sabath. And to hold them responsible? 

Mr. Carr. And to facilitate as much as possible the granting of 
these visees to people who deserve them. 

Mr. Rogers. Has an alien whose vise is denied by the American 
consular officer abroad the right to appeal to the State Department? 

Mr. Carr. Yes; he would have the right to appeal, although I do 
not know of a case where any have appealed. 

Mr. Rogers. I should think that there ought to be some machinery 
by which the arbitrary rejection abroad should be subject to review in 
Washington. 

Mr. Carr. It would always be subject to review, Mr. Chairman, in 
this way: Tf one of our consuls should object, and the alien should 
bring the case up to his own Government, his own Government could 
either approach our ambassador in a foreign capital, or through his 
own representative here approach this Government, and in that way 
have the action of the consul reviewed. 

Mr. Rogers. And another way by which review could be obtained, 
would be for the relative in America to appeal to his Senator or 
Congressman and he would bring it to the attention of the depart¬ 
ment. 

Mr. Newton. They have already discovered that method. 

Mr. Carr. That has been done. 

Mr. Moores. Would you be willing to make a recommendation to 
the Government of some of the Balkan States to have a change made 
in the way family names are supplied those fellows. They pay about 
2 marks for a family name, and in one election county there were six 
Joseph Howarths who voted in one precinct. Each one had paid 2 
marks for a family name, and the officer who sold him the name gave 
the name “ Howarth.” If they could be made to give a different 
selection of family names to these men, I would be glad to have it 
done. 

Mr. Carr. We do not have much difficulty about that sort of thing 
because we check the name with the photograph of the man. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


185 


Mr. Moores. They pay for their family names, those who have 
not family names; they get one for 2 marks. 

Mr. Rogers. You spoke of having one other item that you wished 
to bring up. 

Mr. Carr. That was the item. 

Mr. Rogers. There is one general question that I should like to 
ask on this bill. You appreciate, Mr. Carr—I am sure the depart¬ 
ment and the Secretary appreciate—that this committee and this 
House and this Congress is expected to cut down to the very mini¬ 
mum the appropriations for the ensuing fiscal year. I have no doubt 
that you say that these estimates as submitted conform to that re¬ 
quirement. But if we are to cut in this committee or in the House, 
where can we cut with the least detriment to the foreign service? 

Mr. Carr. I hope that you will not cut, Mr. Chairman. I think 
we need every cent that we have estimated for. and I think, further¬ 
more, that we have not estimated for as much as w T e ought to have 
estimated for this year, and I say that not because we want to have 
you appropriate a lot of money merely because we want it, but 
out of consideration for the interests of our people, our commerce, 
our diplomacy, our political interests, the interests of the very 
country itself abroad. Now, I do not think we have to-day as strong 
a State Department, as strong a diplomatic service, as strong a 
consular service as is absolutely and imperatively required to care 
for the interests of this Government and its people in the way they 
ought to be looked after and in the way they would be looked after 
if they were expected to look for protection to a great American cor¬ 
poration instead of to the Government itself. Just at this time when 
constructive statesmanship is of such supreme importance in our 
foreign relations, where the activities of the Government have ex¬ 
panded to so great a degree, when our foreign trade has increased 
over 300 per cent, our shipping nearly as much, our vested interests 
abroad running into the billions of dollars we should think very seri¬ 
ously of the wisdom of reducing the financial support of that branch 
of the Government upon which we have to rely for the protection of 
those interests. We have gone into that pretty fully in the last few 
days, and I hope you see the real seriousness of the existing situation 
and the absolute need for more money instead of less. We have been 
very modest in our estimates thijS year, but if you have to cut, if you 
are compelled to do it, then my suggestion is that you begin with 
the building in Habana. 

Mr. Rogers. Then where w r ould you go ? 

Mr. Carr. Then I would go to the salaries of ambassadors and 
ministers. 

Mr. Rogers. Then where would you go? 

Mr. Carr. Then I would make a reduction of contingent expenses 
for foreign missions—not too much of a reduction. 

Mr. Rogers. $200,000, perhaps? 

Mr. Carr. Perhaps. 

Mr. Rogers. And then you think that there might be a discon¬ 
tinuance of the appropriation for the Interparliamentary item ap¬ 
propriation of $2,000 ? 

Mr. Carr. I feel a delicacy about that, because it is particularly 
a congressional matter and not a State Department matter. 






186 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Moores. That will not be spent anyway. It is just a con¬ 
tinuance of the appropriation. 

Mr. Rogers. It is in the bill if we put it in. 

Mr. Sabath. It has been appropriated five years and has never 
been used. 

Mr. Moores. It will not be next year. So that really that is not 
to be considered. 

Mr. Rogers. We can take that up in executive session. 

Mr. Moores. We want to give you everything that you need; but 
if some of the kittens have got to be drowned, we want you to pick j 
the kittens. 

Mr. Carr. That is considerate of you, and I appreciate it, and I ; 
know the Secretary will; but I hope that you will leave enough 
money to run the Diplomatic and Consular Service and to retain 
our men, and also that you protect the credit of the Government in 
regard to international obligations. 

Mr. Rogers. Mr. Carr, I am sure that I am speaking for this 
committee in saying that in the four or five days that you have been 
testifying you have been tremendously enlightening, and I con¬ 
gratulate you and congratulate ourselves on having such an able 
presentation of this question from every phase and every angle, and 
I think we want also to congratulate you upon the possession for 
the first time, so far as I know, of a very valuable assistant, to whom 
we have listened with great pleasure. 

Mr. Carr. I congratulate myself on the latter part very much. 

Mr. Rogers. Is there anything else ? 

Mr. Sabath. You have asked questions relative to where it would 
be possible to bring about some reductions, and in view of the fact 
that to some people to whom it might appear that we are appro¬ 
priating a great deal more money than formerly, I desire to ask this 
question: Do you know what our—because it has to do with foreign 
commerce mostly, and foreign intercourse—do you know what our 
foreign commerce amounted to in 1912, 1913, or 1914? 

Mr. Carr. I have not the figures right here. I can easily put them 
in the hearing. I do know, however, that our foreign commerce has 
increased by, I think, 300 per cent, or thereabouts. 


Year. 

Imports. 

Exports. 

Total commerce 
(foreign). 

1912. 

$1 818,073,055 

$2,399 217,992 
2,484,018,292 
2,113,624,050 

$4,217,291,048 
4,276,614,772 

1913. 

1,792,596,480 
1,789,276,001 
3,523,772,899 

1914... 

3,902,900,051 
i 10,765,818,697 

1919. 

7,242,045,798 



i Statistics given for 1919 are for 11 months only. 


Mr. Sabath. If I am not mistaken, in 1912 exports amounted to 
one billion and two or three hundred thousand dollars, and I under¬ 
stand now that it amounts to seven or eight billion dollars, and, con¬ 
sequently, it requires larger forces to handle that increase in our 
commerce, and the business men and the people of this Nation will 
not tolerate the reduction of our force that has aided in increasing 
our commerce. 

Mr. Carr. If we do not look after our commerce, a few years 
hence—10 years from now—we will find it to have been a very 













DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


187 


expensive thing to have failed to look after our commerce during the 
years succeeding the war. 

Mr. Sabath. Y on keep fairly well informed as to what the other 
nations are doing m trying to corral the trade and get back the trade 
and enlarge their trade in foreign countries? Do you know what 
they are doing? 

Mr. Carr. I try to; yes. 

Mr. Sabath. And they are moving heaven and earth to break in 
and to corral all the business they possibly can, are they not? 

Mr. Carr. That is perfectly true; and there is not to-day a single 
great power that is not reorganizing and expanding its foreign office, 
its diplomatic service, its consular service, and in many cases or in a 
number of cases I know of, the amount of money they are spending 
on their service is several times that which they spent in 1914. Great 
Britain is a notable example. Great Britain has not only expanded 
her foreign office but she has created an entirely new branch of the 
foreign office called the overseas trade department. She has doubled 
the salaries- 

Mr. Newton. That is right in the foreign office—the overseas trade. 

Mr. Carr. Yes. She lias doubled the salaries of her consular 
officers, she has increased the number of her paid consular service, 
she lias practically revolutionized her consular service in that re¬ 
spect, at a great deal of additional expense, she has granted liberal 
local allowances to all of her consuls, and to her diplomatic officers 
as well, she has granted war bonuses to her officers in all the coun¬ 
tries immediately affected by the war, she has granted representa¬ 
tion allowances to her consular officers. And on that last point I 
would like to say just this, that she recognizes what we in this 
country have failed to recognize thus far, that the question of enter¬ 
tainment, of arranging conferences with men, although it does cost 
a little money, is a proper Government expenditure because it helps 
to increase the officers’ facilities for promoting British trade and 
British influence. So that she is giving her officers a. representation 
allowance for that particular purpose. It is precisely the sort of 
thing which Germany did before the war. 

Germany, on the other hand, has completely reorganized her 
foreign office, Sweden has completely reorganized her foreign office, 
the Netherlands Government has increased the amount which she 
has given to her foreign service for trade and other purposes of a 
similar character. France has just recently added very greatly to 
her foreign service machinery. Therefore, if we now seek to restrict 
the development of our own State Department and the Diplomatic 
and Consular Service, by cutting down appropriations, if we fail to 
strengthen them and to make them at least the equal in every respect 
of our commercial rivals, we shall later on deeply regret our lack 
of foresight and our loss of influence and commercial advantage. 

Mr. Sabath. One more question and I will not trouble you any 
more. I hear many complaints from manufacturers and exporters 
that their cables are being unnecessarily delayed and that their 
mail is unnecessarily delayed in Great Britain, and they are under 
the impression that it is being done deliberately for the purpose of 
hampering our exporters and our manufacturers and our foreign 
trade. I know that some of the smaller nations that rely upon the 
service of cables and communications that pass through Great Brit- 




188 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


ain; these people complain bitterly of the great and unnecessary 
delay, and they charge it to Great Britain’s deliberate program to 
hamper American trade. Have any of these complaints reached 
you? 

Mr. Carr. The handling of that particular question does not come 
directly within my jurisdiction. But I do know this, that the de¬ 
partment has been making some inquiry into that matter with the 
result that we find there is no restriction on the part of cable com¬ 
panies in accepting business code messages except to destinations 
where the Government of the country to which the message is 
going objects to receiving it in code. Now, I am not familiar with 
just which Governments are interposing those objections, but I am 
perfectly sure that you may rely upon the department if there seems, 
after investigation, just cause or reason for it, to take those questions 
up and discuss them with the Governments concerned with a view to 
facilitating, so far as possible, freedom of intercourse by telegraph. 

Mr. Rogers. Now, gentlemen, the only three items which we have 
left uncovered are those relating to the different phases of our 
boundary relationship. I understand that it is the desire of Mr. 
Porter that the committee should meet at 10 o’clock to-morrow 
morning and to hear two or three gentlemen especially conversant 
with those matters who will testify at that time. If there is no 
objection the committee will now stand adjourned. 

(Thereupon the committee at 5.25 o’clock p. m., adjourned until 
to-morrow, Wednesday, January 14, at 10 o’clock a. m.) 


Committee on Foreign Affairs, 

House of Representatives, 

Wednesday, January 7^, 1920 . 

The committee this day met, Hon. Stephen D. Porter (chairman) 
presiding. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

STATEMENT BY MR. E. C. BARNARD, UNITED STATES BOUNDARY 

COMMISSION. 

The Chairman. Mr. Barnard, will you state your full name. 

Mr. Barnard. H. C. Barnard, United States boundary commis¬ 
sioner, Room 410, 719 Fifteenth Street NW., Washington, D. C. 

The Chairman, Mr. Barnard, will you state to the committee 
what progress you have made with this work during the current 
year? 

Mr. Barnard. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I have made up here 
in detail the field and office work done by the United States during 
the fiscal year ending June 30, 1919. I can give you a summary 
of it, and then if the committee would care to put’it in, it can be 
put in the record. It is all in detail. The general summary for 
the fiscal year ending June 30, 1919, is as follows: 

There were 43.1 miles of boundary line surveyed. There were no 
large boundary monuments set. There were 79 small boundary 
monuments set, by that I mean, gentlemen, manganese bronze marks 
set in concrete foundations, or in solid rock. They project about 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


189 


8 inches above the ground, and serve to locate the boundary line 
, through the water courses. They were set along the Pigeon River 
l the boundary line between Minnesota and Canada, and along 

the St. Croix River, the boundary line bordering on the State of 
' Maine. 

number of triangulation stations occupied with transit were 
*° r der to accurately determine the position of the boundary 
i monuments and the boundary reference marks, it is necessary to 
connect them by a system of triangulations, so that their latitude 
J longitude may be determined and be available for all time. 

It was necessary in order to control the work to run a number of 
miles of traverse lines. There were 13 miles run. It is neces¬ 
sary also in connection with the boundary work that there should 
, be topographical maps made on which to lay down the boundary 
> l' ine - There were 17.40 square miles of country mapped along the 
border on suitable scales. The scales are 1: 10,000 and 1: 500. That 
is^ approximately 1,000 feet to the inch and 500 feet to the inch. 
Where the boundary line runs through the lakes and rivers it is 
necessary to survey the shores of the lake and rivers in detail. 

; There were 66 miles of shore-line of lakes and rivers surveyed. 

In order to determine the location of the deep water channel on 
which the location of the boundary line in the St. Croix River, 
near Milltown, Me., depends, it was necessary to sound out the 
I stream, and in this locality 6,600 soundings were taken. 

In order to control map making it is necessary to run level lines so 
that the elevations may be accurately determined, and the elevation 
of the bench marks and monuments thus determined will be valu¬ 
able in future surveys. There were 85 miles of level run, and 8 
permanent bench marks established. There were also 62 temporary 
bench marks established. The method of the work on the location of 
the boundary line east of the summit of the Rocky Mountains was 
; that the Canadian parties did one stretch and the United States par¬ 
ties did another stretch, with United States representative in Cana¬ 
dian party and Canadian representative in United States party. In 
checking up this work in office afterwards I had reason to believe 
that there were a few cases where it was thought that the boundary 
monuments which were set might not have been set in conformity 
| with the terms of the treaty. Therefore, it was arranged to make an 
I examination to see that the terms of the treaty had been followed 
I out. 

By agreement with the British commissioner, in order to determine 

| | more accurate^ the distances along the line between the boundary 
monuments, which had not been determined as accurately as we be¬ 
ll lieved it, was essential, 154 miles of the boundary line was examined 
■ which involved the occupation of 119 monuments with transit. 

Twenty-two triangulations stations were also occupied in connection 
| with this work. 

The number of men engaged in the field work, permanently em- 
| ployed as chiefs of parties were 8, and temporary employees, in¬ 
cluding instrument men, foremen, rodmen, axmen, and cooks, em¬ 
ployed at different times during the year, 41. 

Gentlemen, if it may be of interest, I also have here an analysis of 
the classified expenditures during the fiscal year ended June 30, 
1919. If the committee wishes that to be inserted I can insert it. 







190 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Rogers. Is that all given in the estimates of the appropria¬ 
tion; in the letter to the State Department- 

Mr. Barnard. Xo: that is the estimates for the coming year. 

Mr. Rogers. The letter from the Secretary of State gives both the 
estimates for 1921 and the actual expenditures for 1919. 

Mr. Barnard. Yes; but I do not know that this includes all of the 
expenditures of 1919. The total is $60,210. 

Mr. Mason. Is that being made under the treaty of 1906 or 1908? 

Mr. Barnard. The commission is operating under three treaties: 
The treaty of 1903. which provides for the location of the boundary 
line in accordance with award of the Alaskan Boundary Tribunal, 
from Mt. St. Elias bordering the coast to Portland Canal and thence 
to Cape Muzon, the treaty of 1906 which provides for the demarca¬ 
tion of the international boundary line between Alaska and Yukon 
Territory from the Arctic Ocean along the one hundred and forty-first 
meridian to Mount St. Elias, and the treaty of 1908, Articles I to III 
and Y to VIII, which provides for the reestablishment or establish¬ 
ment of the international boundary from the Atlantic to the Pacific, 
excepting in Great Lakes, St. Lawrence River, and connecting waters, 
which section of the boundary was established under the Interna¬ 
tional Waterways Commission, and they filed their report in 1913. 

Mr. Mason. Under those treaties, the English, or the Canadian 
forces worked right along with your forces and they make all of 
their agreements, and they check up each other’s lines? 

Mr. Barnard. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mason. That is the way I understood it. 

Mr. Barnard. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman? 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. Doctor, the letter of the Secretary of State in com¬ 
menting on the reason for asking for an increase of $15,000 from 
$40,000 to $55,000, says this: 

This increase is necessary in order to provide for the examination of por¬ 
tions of the international boundary line between Alaska and British Columbia, 
where great mining activity has brought about the location of many mineral 
claims abutting and even crossing the boundary line in the vicinity of the head 
of the Portland Canal and in the valley of the Stikine River. The vista along 
the boundary line will have to be opened and additional boundary monuments 
set, in order so to define the boundary line that there may be no uncertainty 
as to whether mining claims are located in the United States or in Canada. 

The accompanying estimates, itemized in accordance with section 6 of the 
sundry civil act, approved August 1, 1014, contemplate the prosecution of the 
work as follows: 

1. By a small party to complete the monumenting of 30 miles along the St. 
Croix River. 

2. By a small party for a short time on examining and monumenting along 
Hall’s stream. 

3. By a small party for the examination of the location of the boundary line 
on the eastern slope of the Rocky Mountains. 

4. By one or two parties to examine the condition of the boundary line be¬ 
tween Alaska and British Columbia at the head of the Portland Canal and in 
the valley of the Stikine, and possibly the Unuk Rivers; to reopen the vista 
along the boundary line; and to erect such additional boundary monuments in 
these localities as may be necessary for the proper definition of the boundary 
line so that there may be no uncertainty as to whether the many mining claim's 
recently located in these localities are in the United States or in Canada. 

Then it analyzes and compares the expenses for the fiscal year 
ended June 30, 1919, and the estimates for the fiscal year beginning 




191 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


^ bnc ^ $12,000 of the* $15,000 asked seem to be 
T i -f yl? P?. p v’’ en graving, and printing reports and maps. 
1 nnd it a little bit difficult to reconcile those two statements. 

:r ; ^rnard Well gentlemen, the explanation of that is that the 
s or the printing of the report and the atlas you recently received, 
should have been paid for last year, but the bills were not submitted 
and will ha\ e to be paid out of this year’s appropriation. Also, it is 
Hoped to print another report and to engrave and print more of the 
maps during this year than we were able to do in previous years. At 
least it was expected that at least $9,000 of this $15,000 would have 
been paid out of last year’s appropriation, but that balance is left 
to be applied to the settlement of these bills. 

It cost to set up, print, and bind the 1,500 copies for the United 
states of the report on the establishment of the international boun¬ 
dary from the Arctic Ocean to Mount St. Elias, $5,274.54. It was 
economical as well as in every way, in my opinion, advisable that a 
printed joint report should be submitted, because it insures that this 
5®E ort 1 wil1 b .° available at all times in the future, and one of the 
difficulties this commission has encountered in the reestablishment of 
portions of the boundry line is the lack of existing information as 
to what has been previously done. 

Mr. Bogers. Well, Doctor, I have no disposition to quarrel with 
that, but it^seems to me that this statement in the letter from the Sec¬ 
retary of State does not quite dovetail in with what you have iust 
stated. 

Mr. Barnard. Now, you were speaking about Alaska? 

Mr. Bogers. Well, we are asked to give $15,000 more than last 
year. The Secretary of State says, and I presume he is simply 
transmitting what you reported to him, that this increase is neces¬ 
sary because of the opening up of mining claims. Now, it seems 
to me that at least a part of it is attributable to some other reason; 
is that correct? 


Mr. Barnard. Yes, gentlemen; it is to a certain extent, that, be¬ 
cause I had felt that it would probably cost to do the work con¬ 
templated to do in Alaska next season in the the vicinity of $10,000. 
It is proposed to set 20 additional monuments on the boundary line 
between the head of the Portland Canal and the Unuk Biver; also to 
open the vista along the boundary line through any timbered area. 
This is apparently a large sum when you consider that the distance 
is only between 40 and 50 miles, but in the field season you have to 
keep a party there all of the time in order to avail yourself of the 
limited amount of fair weather in which we can work. Everything 
will have to be transported over snow fields and glaciers on men’s 
backs, and it is a very expensive as well as laborious piece of work; 
but I think it is essential, because the Governor of Alaska has writ¬ 
ten me that through and along a considerable portion of that section 
of the boundary line mineral claims are abutting and even crossing 
the boundary, and there is uncertainty as to whether these claims 
are in Alaska or in Canada. 

Mr. Bogers. Are you going to have any unexpended balance at 
the end of this year ? 

Mr. Barnard. Oh, yes; we estimate that there will be $12,560. 
Now, gentlemen- 

Mr. Moores. Just a moment; if you stated, I didn’t hear where 
this work, this 43 miles of work, was done. 



192 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Barnard. Of the 43 miles, 23 miles was done along the St. 
Croix River, Me., and 20 miles along the Pigeon River, Minn. 

■ The Chairman. And are you also working along the Alaskan 
boundary ? 

Mr. Barnard. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many crews have you? 

Mr. Barnard. The field work on the Alaskan boundary is com¬ 
pleted. It is proposed to do some additional field work there dur¬ 
ing the coming season, rendered necessary by the mining activities. 

The Chairman. How long do you calculate it will take to com¬ 
plete this work? 

Mr. Barnard. I figure that this commission should entirely com¬ 
plete their labors in five or six years—the field work is done, gen¬ 
tlemen, but there is a boundary dispute on the St. Croix River that 
we may come to an agreement on at any date, or we may drift along 
for a year or two. There will have to be a few monuments set there. 
There is this examination on the boundary line near the Portland 
Canal in Alaska. This completes all of the field work with the 
exception, possibly, of setting monuments that may be destroyed 
before the report is submitted. The rest of the work will be office 
work and it will probably take some five or six years longer to get 
out the reports. 

The Chairman. Now, after you prepare the reports, will it be 
necessary to go back and reset monuments at various places? 

Mr. Barnard. In my opinion, gentlemen, it would be wise if 
some provision were made for the maintenance of this boundary 
line in the future. As developments take place it will be neces¬ 
sary to interpolate additional monuments along the boundary line, 
monuments that are damaged or destroyed should be repaired or 
rebuilt. On the boundary line along the water portion it will oc¬ 
casionally be necessary to move boundary monuments from their 
present location to the new sites. 

Mr. Rogers. In sparsely occupied and settled areas what is the 
maximum difference of distance between monuments? 

Mr. Barnard. On the boundary line along the 141st meridian, 
4 miles, except south of the White River, where the boundary is 
mostly over snow fields; on the boundary line west of the summit 
of the Rocky Mountains, 4 miles. That is the maximum. On the 
Alaskan coast boundary lines the distance between monuments is 
sometimes up to 8 or 10 miles, because it is across a snow-capped 
country that is practically inaccessible. 

Mr. Rogers. Is there any point in our boundary where the twists 
and turns are quite numerous except where a river form the boundary, 
of course? 

Mr. Barnard. No; the boundary from the Arctic Ocean to Mt. 
St. Elias is a meridian line, and is located as a straight line. The 
boundary along the 49th Parallel is composed of straight lines, as 
is the northeast boundary. 

Mr. Moores. The line from the Arctic Ocean to Mount St. Elias 
is not marked at all? 

Mr. Barnard. Oh, yes, it is marked by aluminum bronze monu¬ 
ments three feet high, and at other points, five feet high, set in 
concrete, until you reach south of the White River, where the 
boundary line passes over snowfields. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 193 

Mr. Moores. Well, that is what I want to ask, about the White 
River. How far apart are the monuments in that Susitna district? 

Mr. Barnard. Gentlemen, I have an atlas right here. [AYhereupon 
the witness proceeded to point out on the maps the locations of the 
monuments along the boundary line.] 

Mr. Barnard. It was impracticable to set monuments in that dis¬ 
trict north of Mount St. Elias, because if we set them there we 
wiould have to set them in the snow, and they would soon be cov¬ 
ered up. 

Mr. Moores. That is more than 10,000 feet up ? 

Mr. Barnard. Yes. I am just simply pointing out this triangula¬ 
tion station, which is marked by a thermos bottle on stick. I do not 
know whether you read about it or not, but there were three gentle¬ 
men who reached practically the top of Mount St. Elias without any 
special equipment, which is one of the most remarkable trips I 
know of. 

Mr. Mason. Is that printed in this? 

Mr. Barnard. It is all printed in the report, in which there is a 
very graphical description as to how they reached this point here 
[indicating on map], and it was only that a snowstorm came up that 
prevailed for two days that prevented them from reaching the top 
of Mount St. Elias without any special equipment at all. 

Mr. Rogers. There is no station located on that mountain 16,000 
feet above sea level ? 

Mr. Barnard. No; they reached that point [indicating on map] 
and they had planned to go on to the top. It was only 2,000 feet 
above them, but a snowstorm came up and they were short of supplies 
and had to get out to save their lives. 

Mr. Mason. What season of the year that they were there? 

Mr. Barnard. I think it was in July or August. I forget exactly 
which. 

The Chairman. How long will it take to complete the field work? 

Mr. Barnard. The field work will be all completed next summer. 
It is practically completed now. 

The Chairman. Then, next year when you come in with the esti¬ 
mates for an appropriation you will be prepared to tell us that it is 
all completed? 

Mr. Barnard. Well, as I said, it is practically completed now, and 
we had just a few monuments to put up on the St. Croix River, where 
there is a dispute. It would have been monumented long ago, but 
my colleague could not agree with me; we could not agree as to the 
location of the boundary line. 

This work to be done on the boundary along the Alaskan boundary 
could not have been foreseen, and I predict that in the future it will 
be necessary to do additional work on the Alaskan coast boundary, 
should valuable minerals be found in the vicinity of that line. 

The Chairman. How long will it take—I believe you said that it 
would take five years to complete the office work? 

Mr. Barnard. The office work ? 

The Chairman. That is, in the preparation of maps, and evidence 
of the boundarv for filing purposes? 

Mr. Barnard. Yes, Mr. Chairman; there are six reports similar to 
the one which you have received that have yet to be published by 

161477—20-13 


194 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


the commission, which involves a great amount of work, and before 
the maps can be engraved and printed the triangulation observations 
must be accurately adjusted. There are yet to be adjusted and com¬ 
puted some 8,000 triangulations. There are in the vicinity of ap¬ 
proximately 270 maps to be engraved and printed to complete the 
work. The process of having these maps engraved, proof read, 
finally approved, and printed—finally approved and signed by the 
British commissioner and myself—involves considerable time, but I 
believe- 

The Chairman. Is this office work done in Washington? 

Mr. Barnard. A part of it is done in Washington and a part of 
it in Ottawa, Canada. We divide it. 

The Chairman. How many men have you employed at the present 
time? 

Mr. Barnard. There are 14 on the rolls besides myself. 

Mr. Moores. How many men has the Canadian Government taken 
away by paying better wages ? 

Mr. Barnard. None. 

Mr. Moores. Since when ? 

Mr. Barnard. They have not taken any since we established this 
commission. 

Mr. Moores. I went down the Yukon River with a man who said 
that he had left the American forces and joined the Canadians be¬ 
cause they paid them better than you did. 

Mr. Barnard. They have taken our temporary men, but it would 
not be good business—as we are working together for one common 
end—for us to take each other’s men. 

Mr. Moores. Well, their force is all Canadian? 

Mr. Barnard. Their force is all Canadian, as our force is com¬ 
posed of United States citizens. 

Mr. Rogers. You propose to complete 43 miles, about, this year? 

Mr. Barnard. That was for the fiscal year ended June 30. 

Mr. Rogers. Was that work necessary to complete the survey; 
was that actually the first time that work was done ? 

Mr. Barnard. That was actually new work. 

Mr. Rogers. So that is really all the new work that you have to do ? 

Mr. Barnard. That is really all of the new work; yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. Your appropriations until lately used to be some¬ 
thing like $100,000, did it not ? 

Mr. Barnard. Gentlemen, I have made up here a table showing 
the appropriations received, the balances that were available from 
previous appropriations, and the funds that were available for each 
fiscal year, with the expenditures of the last fiscal year, which shows 
everything fully since I have been commissioner. 

(The table referred to above is printed in the record, as follows:) 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


195 


Statement of funds available and expenditures, United States section, Inter- 
( Canadian ) Boundary Commissioners, for the fiscal years 1916- 


Fiscal year. 

Balance from 
previous ap¬ 
propriations. 

Appropria¬ 

tion. 

Repayments 
from Cana¬ 
dian section. 

Total funds 
available. 

Expendi¬ 

tures. 

1916. 

$68,935.09 

12,860.24 

26,092.09 

46,731.03 

47,928.50 

$40,000.00 
111,000.00 
105,000.00 
60,000.00 
40,000.00 


$108,935.09 

1 9f1 091 1 A 

$96,074.85 

mi 090 n£ 

1917. 

$7,070.90 

1918. 

yoi. I'* 
131,092.09 
108,138.70 

iu*xj oi>y. uo 

84,361.06 

60,210.20 

1919. 

1,407.67 

1920. 

— 





Classification of expenditures for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1919. 

[Exclusive oi vouchers passed up to Aug. 1, 1918, covering indebtedness incurred prior to July 1, 1918, 

included in previous classification.) 


Items. 

Van 

Wagenen. 

Hill. 

Office. 

Total. 

Salaries: 

Permanent (office). 

$2,660.00 

2,666.09 

1,881.90 

$1,802.50 
3,115. 32 
2,063.26 
109. 24 
375.09 

$26,401. 65 
2,947.01 
2,158. 54 
1,039. 47 
308.83 

$30,864.15 
8,728. 42 
6,103. 70 
1,148.71 
800. 37 

Temporary (field). 

Subsistence. 

Equipment. 

Expendable material (field). 

116.45 

Freight and express.... 

16. 53 

16.00 

94.34 

i26. 87 

Field transportation. 

869. 54 
434.14 

1,561.80 

116.82 

768.17 
1,161.52 
538. 51 

3 199.51 

Travel.... 1. 

1,712.48 
538. 51 

Horse keep. 

Storage.. . 


2.50 

207. 70 

210. 20 

Instruments and repairs. 

13. 50 

8.50 

22.00 

Marks and monuments. 

206.31 

375.69 

5S2. 00 

Telegraph and telephone. 

1.26 

.30 

91. 31 

92.87 

Stationery and supplies. 

163. 06 

163.06 

Engraving and printing. 



3,605.64 
2,239.92 
54. 94 

3,605.64 
2,239. 92 

Rent. 



General expense. 

11.90 

4.95 

71.79 


Total. 

8,877.62 

9,543. 47 

41,789.11 

60,210. 20 




Mr. Houghton. I do not understand, Mr. Barnard, with regard 
to this balance of $12,000 which is on hand. 

Mr. Barnard. That is from the July 1, estimate. 

Mr. Houghton. In addition, you want $15,000 additional? 

Mr. Barnard. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Houghton. Making available some $27,000 more than last 
year. 

Mr. Barnard. No, sir; it won’t be more than last year. The esti¬ 
mated expenses for next year are $67,000. The expenses for last 
year $60,000, so it is only really $7,000 larger and I inherited $9,000 
in bills that should have been paid last year, which will have to come 
out of this. 

Mr. Houghton. Well, you apparently have a balance of $12,000? 

Mr. Barnard. Yes, sir; there will be. 

Mr. Houghton. And then you are asking for $15,000 more, that 
makes $27,000. 

Mr. Barnard. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Houghton. Now, you want that $27,000 so that these maps 
and reports may be printed. 

Mr. Barnard. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Houghton. And the atlases, and so that you can go on with 
this work. 






























































196 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Barnard. This work on the Alaskan boundary. 

Mr. Houghton. So you wish that in addition to that $15,000 which 
you consider essential? 

Mr. Barnard. Yes, sir; I think it is absolutely essential. It may 
be that some of it will go over, but I want to have this money so 
I can engrave and make contracts for having the engraving and 
printing and binding done. Now, I had expected to complete that 
binding during last year. It was delayed so that I could not get 
it done. It will be paid out of this appropriation, because it was 
not completed until December. That is a bill for $3,000. 

Mr. Houghton. Well, suppose we do not give you $15,000 in addi¬ 
tion to that that you now have, and over what you had last year, 
what will be the result ? 

Mr. Barnard. I estimate that— 

Mr. Houghton. You say that you want to have plenty of money 
to carry on this work. 

Mr. Barnard. I want to have plenty of money to provide for con¬ 
tracts. I have no business contracting anything until I have the 
money in sight. 

The Chairman. How long have you been commissioner? 

Mr. Barnard. Since April 30, 1915. 

The Chairman. Who preceded you? 

Mr. Barnard. Mr. O. H. Pittman. 

The Chairman. All of the 14 employees are permanent employees 
which you have; how many of those are clerks, performing purely 
clerical work? 

Mr. Barnard. Two; the chief clerk, who also acts as disbursing 
officer, and custodian of property, and one stenographer. 

The Chairman. Is your office located in a Government building? 

Mr. Barnard. No; my office is in the National Savings and Trust 
Building. 

The Chairman. What rental do you pay? 

Mr. Barnard. We pay $2,240 per year. 

The Chairman. What percentage of your appropriation goes for 
overhead charges, such as rental, clerk hire, excluding, of course, 
your own salary ? 

Mr. Barnard. The rental is $2,240, not more than 10 per cent— 
less than 10 per cent, I should say; that is, the rental is $2,240, and 
in addition to that the salaries are $3,320. That would make about 
$5,500, out of an expenditure of $60,000 or $67,000, as estimated for 
the year. 

The Chairman. Now, as I understand you, after you have com¬ 
pleted the office work and what little remains of the field work, the 
commission has performed the duties that it was required to perform 
under the treaty. At that time the commission can be abolished ? 

Mr. Barnard. The commission automatically ceases. Now, I really 
think that the duties of the commission with reference to the treaty 
of 1906 have been completed and their services terminated by the 
Ming of the report. 

The Chairman. The filing of the final report will terminate the 
commission ? 

Mr. Barnard. That terminates the commission. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 197 

I he Chairman Then, after that, you feel that some branch of 

ie Hoteminent should look after the maintenance of the bound¬ 
aries s 

Mr. B ARNARD. Yes, sir. 

The ( hairman. A\ here would you place that duty? 

Mr. Barnard. I would create a commission. 

1 he Chairman. Another commission? 

Mr. Barnard It must be a joint agency. I believe it can better 
be done, as well as more economically done, by a commission, or 
another commission will have to be created by treaties for the main¬ 
tenance of the boundary line. 

Mr. Moores. IVho took Mr. Tawney’s place on that commission? 

Mi. Barnard. That is, the International Joint Commission, and 
which is separate from this. That was filled by Mr. Clark, who was 
formerly a Senator from Wyoming, I think. 

I want you gentlemen to understand that I am perfectlv frank 
about this. 

Xow, here, gentlemen, is something I do not know whether you 
want to print or not. It takes up the whole history of the boundary 
line, as to what has been done. 

The Chairman. I think that should be printed. 

Mr. Barnard. That gives an idea of what has been accomplished. 
If it is the desire of* the committee, I will bring that down to date. 

The Chairman. How soon can you do that; can you do that by 
to-morrow morning? 

Ml Rogers. Don t you think that it would be better to print that 
in the Congressional Record? 

Air. Barnard. It is a resume which gives the information intelli¬ 
gently. 

The Chairman. You will be sure to have it here to-morrow? 

Air. Barnard. AVould it do to have it the next morning? 

The Chairman. T am afraid not, as we are running short of time. 

Air. Barnard. I will do my best. 

(The matter referred to above is printed in the record in full, as 
follows:) 


Statement on the Work o* the International (Canadian) Boundary Com¬ 
missions, by E. C. Barnard, Commissioner, January 14, 1920. 

authorization. 

Alaskan coast boundary, convention of 1903. 

Boundary from the Arctic Ocean to Mount St. Elias, convention of 190(5. 

Atlantic to Pacific Ocean, treaty of 1908. Articles I to III and V to VIII, and 
treaty of 1910. 

duties of the commissioner. 

To be expert commissioner, on the part of the United States, with full 
authority, in cooperation with the commissioner, on the part of Great Britain, 
to establish or reestablish the international boundary between the United States 
and Canada under the treaties of 1903, 1906, and 1910, and Articles I, II, III, 
V, VI, AMI, VIII of the treaty of 1908, to agree upon the manner in which the 
provisions of the treaties are to be carried out and the division of work and 
expenditure, to draw the boundary line upon the final maps and certify to the 
same, and to prepare and sign the reports required by the treaties; and, as 
technical director of the United States section of the commission, to direct field 
operations of mapping, surveying, and monumenting, and office work of com¬ 
puting and drafting. 


198 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


REQUIREMENTS OF TREATIES OR CONVENTIONS. 

1. That the land boundary shall be marked by durable monuments at fre¬ 
quent intervals; that the water boundary shall be referenced by durable 
monuments on the shore at frequent intervals. 

2. That the boundary line shall be drawn by the commissioners on accurate, 
modern maps. 

3. That a joint report describing the boundary line, monuments, and opera¬ 
tions shall be submitted at the close of the work. 

As there were no maps of sufficient accuracy in existence for the laying down 
of the boundary line, it was necessary to make them, which involved ex¬ 
tending a belt of triangulation along the boundary line for determinating the 
geographic positions of the monuments and controlling the topographic work; 
running of levels for the determination of elevations; and accurately mapping 
a belt extending from one-half to 2 miles on either side of the boundary line 
for its entire length. And it was also necessary in places to make soundings 
in the water areas traversed by the boundary line. 

LENGTH OF THE BOUNDARY LINE. 

The boundary line between the United States and Canada starts at the 
Arctic Ocean and runs due south 645 miles to Mount St. Elias, then parallels 
the coast a short distance inland and through the Portland Canal for a distance 
of S62 miles; and beginning again at the entrance of the Straits of Fuca ex¬ 
tends 3.900 miles acress the continent to the mouth of Passamaquoddy Bay on 
the Atlantic shore. Of the 1,500 miles of the Alaskan boundary, 180 miles are 
water; and of the 3,900 miles from the Pacific to the Atlantic Ocean, 2,100 miles 
are water. The portion of the boundary through the St. Lawrence River and 
the Great Lakes, 1,250 miles in length, was located by the International Joint 
Commission under Article IV of the treaty of 1908 during 1908 to 1914. There¬ 
fore, the present International (Canadian) Boundary Commissions were charged 
with the location of 4,150 miles of the boundary line. 

CONDITION OF WORK JANUARY 1, 1920. 

The field work for the location of the 4,150 miles of boundary intrusted to 
these commissions, namely, from the Arctic Ocean to Mount St. Elias, and 
thence to Cape Muzon, and from the Pacific to the Atlantic Ocean excepting 
through the Great Lakes and the St. Lawwence River, is practically completed, 
there remaining to be done during the coming field season only: 

The setting of some monuments for a short distance on the St. Croix River. 

The examination of 15 to 20 miles of the located boundary line on the eastern 
slope of the Rocky Mountains by United States parties. 

The erection of additional monuments and reopening of the vista along the 
international boundary line between Alaska and British Columbia from the 
Portland Canal to the Unuk River, rendered necessary in order that there 
may be no uncertainty as to whether the many mining claims recently located 
in this section are in the United States or in Canada. 

The work has been done jointly under the direction of one LTnited States 
and one British commissioner by United States and Canadian survey parties, 
and one-lialf of the expense has been borne by each Government. 

On the land portion of the boundary 2,550 metal monuments from 3 to 5 
feet high, set in concrete foundations, at intervals of one-lialf to 3 miles apart, 
have been erected and vista cut along the line. To reference the water bound¬ 
ary, 1,647 metal or concrete marks have been erected on the shores, and 3,000 
tile marks have been set along the Maine highlands between the large monu¬ 
ments. A total of 7,215 boundary marks have been set on the 4,150 miles of 
boundary line located, all of which were set in concrete foundations or in solid 
rock. 

The geographic positions—that is, the latitude and longitude—ot' each of these 
marks have been accurately determined and the positions of 8,000 triangulation 
stations have been marked and determined. Approximately 2,000 miles of 
levels have been run for the determination of the elevations of the marks and 
the control of the topography, and accurate topographic maps of the belt of 
country extending from one-half to 2 miles on either side of the boundary 
line have been made; that is, 5,000 square miles of the United States territory 
have been mapped. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


199 


rtutnW tile field work of the commissions will be practically completed 
T * comin » ^f ason ’ ther e necessarily remains much office work to be 

one m the computation of the triangulation and the preparation of the bound- 
ary maps and reports required by the treaties. Before the maps can be pub¬ 
lished, the final computation of the triangulation must be made. Up to the 
piesent time the final positions of 4,500 points have been computed, and there 
yet remains to be computed the geographic positions of approximately 8,000 
points; m addition to. which the geographic positions of 3,500 turning points 
in the water boundary must be computed. 


MATERIALS ANI) TRANSPORTATION. 

. monuments, reference marks, tile, and cement for the monument founda¬ 
tions weighed 700 tons, all of which had to be transported in the field from the 
nearest railroad station or boat landing from 1 to 800 miles to the monument 
sites bj canoes, wagons, or pack trains, and occasionally part of the distance 
by men. Also, 8.000 tons of sand had to be transported from 1 to 10 miles 
for use in the construction of the monument foundations. 

In addition to the above, the instruments, camp equipment, food for members 
of the parties, and feed for the animals had also to be transported long dis¬ 
tances. 

MAPS. 


As the treaty requires that the boundary line shall be drawn on accurate, 
modern maps, it will require 295 maps, approximately 24 by 36 inches each, 
for the laying down of the boundary line. Of these maps, on January 1, 1920, 
GO are printed and signed, 11 others are printed and ready for signature, 20 
others are engraved and ready for printing, 189 others will be ready for engrav¬ 
ing as soon as the triangulation is finally computed and plotted thereon, and 
15 others are yet to be drawn. 


REPORTS. 

Of the seven joint reports required by the treaties or conventions, one report, 
that of the establishment of the boundary line from the Arctic Ocean to Mount 
St. Elias, was completed and transmitted to the State Department in December, 
1919, and considerable work has been done on the preparation of the remaining 
six reports. 

The maps and reports of the commissions will be of great value to other 
bureaus of the Government, as they furnish a belt of accurate topography ex¬ 
tending along the whole boundary line between the United States and Canada, 
which will furnish a base for the extension of additional surveys. The triangu¬ 
lation executed will furnish a base for the extension of triangulation in the 
future, and the elevations of the bench marks for the extension of future levels. 
This information is already being made use of by the office of the Chief of Engi¬ 
neers, United States Army, in the preparation of a map of the United States, 
and advance information is frequently called for and furnished to other 
bureaus of the Government, such as the General Land Office, the Forest Service, 
and the Geological Survey. 

COMPLETION OF THE WORK. 

To complete the work required by the treaties and conventions, that is the 
final computation of the triangulation, the preparation and printing of the re¬ 
ports, the preparation, engraving, and printing of the maps will probably take 
from five to six years. 

The Chairman. Are there any further questions? 

Mr. Huddleston. Mr. Chairman, I want to ask some questions. 
I do not know where you were, as I could not hear very well down 
here. 

The Chairman. Why didn’t you mention it, Mr. Huddleston? 

Mr. Huddleston. Is this work with regard to the boundary being 
done, with a view to having it final ? 

Mr. Barnard. Absolutely. 


200 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Huddleston. I notice you want to do some additional field 
work, you say, on the Alaskan border, and I am wondering whether 
the same situation is not likely to arise at any time at some other 
place. 

Mr. Barnard. Not so much as they are likely to arise in the bound¬ 
ary line between Alaska and British Columbia, and Yukon territory, 
because in that locality it is almost impossible to erect permanent 
markers. 

Mr. Huddleston. Now, this new work does not have to be done 
because of the obliteration of the markers ? 

Mr. Barnard. At the time this work was clone, on account of the 
inaccessibility of the country and the very bad weather conditions, 
the boundary party did what they supposed would be necessary for 
the definition of the boundaVy line, and that would have served the 
purpose for a very long time had not the mining activities developed 
along the boundary line, making it necessary for a more precise defini¬ 
tion. 

Mr. Huddleston. Well, is all of this work being done with a view 
to future development along the border? 

Mr. Barnard. In the settled country across the Great Plains I 
see very little reason for the erection of additional boundary mark¬ 
ers, except where cities may grow up. But when the boundary line 
west of the summit of the Pocky Mounains was located by the com¬ 
missioners in 1859-1863 it was on account of the great difficulty and 
expense that would have to have been incurred that they erected 
permanent marks only in the valleys of the main streams at points 
which were readily accessible, leaving intervals as great as 25 miles 
between these marks. At that time there was no thought of their 
having to do anything more. It was deemed by the present commis¬ 
sioners, on account of the great expense of setting the marks, that 
the marks established would define the Alaskan coast boundary suffi¬ 
ciently for the time being. 

Mr. Huddleston. Isn’t it a very uneconomical way to do this work, 
to have to go over it a second or a third time ? Can not these marks 
be placed with much greater economy if they are all placed at one 
time than to go back and do it a second or third time ? 

Mr. Barnard. Gentlemen, I think it would be an unjustifiable 
expense to erect a monument at short intervals all along the Alaskan 
coast boundary, because a large portion of it is inaccessible. There 
is no need for it, and will be no need for it unless minerals should 
be discovered in that immediate vicinity, and this could be readily 
done from the marks already established. It is a very expensive 
piece of business. 

Mr. Huddleston. Well, now, if this work is done with a view of a 
necessity at some future time of going back and doing it all over 
again, it will make it necessary to keep this commission a going con¬ 
cern perpetually, and to keep it up with all of the overhead, and 
that would be wholly unnecessary if we should do the work all at 
one time. I have a thought which was embraced by the question 
asked by the chairman of the committee, that there should be a time 
when this work would come to an end—we could stop it. 

Mr. Barnard. Gentlemen, there will never be a time that there 
will not have to be some future work done to maintain an effective 
border line. 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 201 

^ r * Huddleston, Tou have in your mind that this commission is 
really of necessity permanent? 

Mr. Barnard. I leave that to the judgment of the committee. 

Mr. Huddleston. 1 on really think that it is necessary? 

Mr. Barnard. I simply want to state the fact. Monuments will 
be destroyed by natural causes and will be destroyed—for instance, 
river banks wash away and the monument goes into the river; land¬ 
slides occur, and the monuments are carried away; snowslides move 
them ; and then in the vistas the timber will grow up and the border¬ 
line is obliterated. 

Mr. Huddleston. Do you have in mind that the vistas should be 
maintained ? 

Mr. Barnard. I think that the vistas should be maintained on the 
international boundary in order that there should be no uncertainty 
as to the position as to the boundary line or ground. 

Mr. Huddleston. Now, with the triangulations and other monu¬ 
ments you are putting up is it not possible for any fairly credible 
surveyor to go there and locate that boundary without the inter¬ 
ference of the commission? 

Mr. Barnard. I think it is possible in most sections for a surveyor 
to run a line and to locate any intermediate point. I question 
whether such work would be recognized in a court of law unless that 
was done by some joint action of the two Governments. 

Mr. Huddleston. There are constantly disputes arising between 
private owners of land as to the 'State boundaries, and of course that 
may occur on this international boundary even with these monu¬ 
ments, no matter how perfect they may be, because there is always 
a variation of the compass, and of course allowances must be made 
for errors. I suppose there are some errors in this work, are there 
not? 

Mr. Barnard. Well, we have tried to eliminate them. 

Mr. Huddleston. But, of course, we know as a practical matter 
you can not eliminate errors from a big piece of work like this. 

Mr. Barnard. The desires of the commission have been that when 
the reports are made that it will be possible to locate any point on 
the boundary line from the notes that will be published in the reports. 

Mr. Goodwin. On the streams, what is done in the way of marking 
the boundary lines in order to define it in the stream ? 

Mr. Barnard. The boundary lines in the streams consist of a series 
of straight lines, the intersection of which are called turning points. 
Now, each turning point is referred to two or more permanent marks 
on land, and by setting up a transit at these marks a point can be 
accurately located out in the water. 

Mr. Goodwin. Is that done from time to time or is that a part of 
the work of this commission? 

Mr. Barnard. That was done—that is, this information was fur¬ 
nished to the International Joint Commission in order that a com¬ 
pany might construct some log booms very close to the boundary line. 

The Chairman. Are there any further questions? 

Mr. Barnard. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the committee some ques¬ 
tions ? 

The Chairman. Certainly; ask anything you want to. 

Mr. Barnard. Gentlemen, you have all seen the report and atlases 
of the establishment of the international boundary between the 



202 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAK APPROPRIATION BILL. 

United States and Canada from the Arctic Ocean to Mount St. Elias. 

It will be very beneficial to this commission as a guidance for future 
reports to be published on the other sections of the boundary lines 
if you will make criticisms and suggestions. Are there too many j 
illustrations in the report; is the arrangement right; is there infor¬ 
mation lacking? It is the desire of this commission to do its work 
efficiently and to make the future reports more complete, or if we 
-are not doing it right then we want to know it. 

Mr. Huddleston. May I ask how numerous is the edition of the 
report that you desire to issue? 

Mr. Barnard. One thousand five hundred copies for the United 
States and 1,000; copies for Canada. 

Mr. Huddleston. How are they distributed? 

Mr. Barnard. These reports have been sent to the depository li¬ 
braries, as it was believed they would be safeguarded there for all 
time in the future. They have been sent to the members of this com¬ 
mittee, the members of the Appropriation Committee in the House, 
the Canadian Relations Committee in the Senate, and the Appro¬ 
priations Committee in the Senate, and the Foreign Relations Com¬ 
mittee in the Senate. 

Mr. Moores. When were they sent? 

Mr. Barnard. They were mailed in December. If any of you 
gentlemen have not received them, we can furnish you another. 

Mr. Rogers. Where is the signed original retained? 

Mr. Barnard. The duplicate signed original report and duplicate 
atlases of signed maps have been filed with the Secretary of State 
and are retained in the archives of the State Department. 

Mr. Rogers. And that will be done from time to time as the work 
progresses ? 

Mr. Barnard. That will be done from time to time. The reports 
and atlases were very well bound, so they ought to last for a very 
long time. Our idea, gentlemen, has been that this thing should be 
permanent for all time, practically. 

The Chairman. Are there any further questions? 

We thank you, Mr. Barnard. 

STATEMENT BY MR. WHITEHEAD KLUTTZ, SECRETARY INTER¬ 
NATIONAL JOINT COMMISSION, UNITED STATES AND CANADA. 

The Chairman. Give your name and official position to the stenog¬ 
rapher, please. 

Mr. Kluttz. Whitehead Kluttz, secretary International Joint 
Commission, United States and Canada. 

As it has been some time since we have had the pleasure of coming 
before the committee and the personnel of the committee has changed 
quite a good deal during that time, it might be worth while, Mr. 
Chairman, to state the nature of the treaty under which the Inter¬ 
national Joint Commission was constituted and its purposes. 

The Chairman. Before you do that will you give the names of the 
commissioners ? 

Mr. Kluttz. The names of the commissioners on the part of the 
United States are: Obadiah Gardner, Rockland, Me., former Sena¬ 
tor from the State of Maine; Robert B. Glenn, Winston-Salem, N. C., 
former governor of the State of North Carolina; Clarence D. Clark, 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 203 

of Evanston, Wyo., former United States Senator from the State of 
Wyoming. 

And the commissioners on the part of Canada- 

J lie Chairman (interposing). What salary do the commissioners 
receive ? 

Mr Kluttz They receive a salary of $7,500. The salary of the 
Canadian members of the commission is the same. The names of 
the Canadian members of the commission are as follows: Charles A, 
JVlagrath, of Ottawa, Canada; Henry Powell, King’s counsel, of St. 
John, New Brunswick; and Sir William Hearst, recently premier of 
the Province of Ontario, who was appointed only a few days ago. 
He succeeded P. B. Mignault, who resigned on account of his appoint¬ 
ment as a member of the supreme court. 

This treaty was signed at Washington, January 11, 1909, and pro¬ 
claimed May 13,1910, by President Taft. Its avowed purposes in the 
preamble are: 

To prevent disputes regarding the use of boundary waters and to settle all 
Questions which are now pending between the United States and the Dominion 
of Canada involving the rights, obligations, or interests of either in relation to 
the other or to the inhabitants of the other, along the common frontier, and to 
make provision for the adjustment and settlement of all such questions as may 
hereafter arise. 

Now, there are just a few articles that are most vital that I might 
call to the attention of the committee in connection with the jurisdic¬ 
tion of the International Joint Commission. 

Articles III and IV confide to the care of this commission the 
boundary waters between the United States and Canada. Under the 
provisions of those articles no uses, obstructions, or diversions of 
those waters which have the effect of changing the level or flow of 
the water on the other side of the line can be made without the ap¬ 
proval of this commission. 

Now, another article of great importance is Article IX, under 
which the jurisdiction of the commission is investigative. Under 
that article the decisions of the commission are recommendatory only 
to the two Governments, and it is under that article that the commis¬ 
sion has conducted the Lake of the Woods and the pollution of 
boundary water investigation. 

Either Government can invoke Article IX. I might add that 
under Article IX the questions involved are questions involving the 
rights, obligations, or interests of either in relation to the other or 
to the inhabitants of the other along the common frontier between 
the United States and the Dominion of Canada. That is the only re¬ 
striction, and either Government can invoke that jurisdiction. 

Now, under Article X of the treaty there is no limitation upon the 
jurisdiction of the commission, provided the provisions of the article 
are complied with in the terms of the reference. The consent of the 
Senate is required to that article. But under that article, both parties 
concurring, any question in dispute between the United States and the 
Dominion of Canada, a question involving national honor or of vital 
interest, may be referred to the commission and its decision when 
made is final and unappealable. 

The Chairman. Has there ever been a question of that kind re¬ 
ferred ? 

Mr. Kluttz. No, sir; no question has ever arisen, as you know, 
Mr. Chairman, which involved the necessity of invoking that order. 



204 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

The proceedings of the commission have been under other articles: 
Articles III, IV, IX, and Article VI, which last confides to the com¬ 
mission the matter of the division of waters of the St. Mary and 
Milk Rivers and their tributaries in the State of Montana and the 
Provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan. 

Mr. Connally. May I ask a question? Under this Article X does 
that refer to matters affecting commerce and such matters as affect 
the border, or may that refer to any question ? 

Mr. Ivluttz. Any question; there is no limitation. 

Mr. Connally. May they invoke that article for any question 
between the United States and Great Britain ? 

Mr. Kluttz. Any matter whatsoever, with the consent of both 
Governments. 

The Chairman. During the life of this commission has any ques¬ 
tion been submitted to it outside of the boundary or water questions? 

Mr. Kluttz. Why, all that have been considered before the com¬ 
mission up to this time had to do with Articles III and IV or Article 
VI, or Article IX; that is, they have all had to do with the water¬ 
ways in one way or another. 

The Chairman. Then the work of the commission since its creation 
has been limited to these waterway questions? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; that is the principal purpose of the treaty, 
and of the creation of the commission. 

Mr. Goodwin. What questions have arisen since the creation of 
the commission and have been settled since 1909 ? 

Mr. Kluttz. I can not now recall all of them. The treaty was 
not proclaimed until May, 1910, and the commission was not or¬ 
ganized until January, 1912. Xow, some of the questions that have 
been settled are: Applications of the Algoma Steel Corporation 
and Michigan Northern Power Co., Livingston Channel, Interna¬ 
tional Lumber Co., Watrous Island Boom Co., St. Croix Water 
Power Co., Lake of the Woods reference, pollution of boundary 
waters, Spragues Falls Manufacturing Co. (Ltd.), St. Clair River 
application, St. Lawrence River Power Co., and St. Mary and Milk 
Rivers matter. 

Mr. Goodwin. Now, that leaves unsettled about how many ques¬ 
tions, that is so far. 

Mr. Kluttz. Well, the matters immediately pending before the 
commission now are the application of the New York & Ontario 
Power Co., for the obstruction and diversion of the waters of the 
St. Lawrence River at Waddington, N. Y.; the request of the Gov¬ 
ernment of the United States and of the Dominion of Canada that 
the commission recommend a draft of a treaty, or of reciprocal legis¬ 
lation by the two countries, for carrying out the provisions of the 
pollution of boundary waters reference, to remedy the pollution of 
boundary waters; and the final disposition of the St. Mary and Milk 
Rivers matters under Article VI of the treaty. 

I ought to say also in reference to your question, Mr. Goodwin, 
which is very helpful and which I am glad to answer, that the com¬ 
mission, under the terms of its final orders in certain of these cases 
that I have mentioned, particularly the matter of the Michigan 
Northern Power Co., the Algoma Steel Co., the St. Croix Water 
Power Co., and the Spragues Falls Manufacturing Co., is the court 
of appeals having supervisory authority over the international 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


205 


boards of control constituted under the terms of the orders. Those 
boards of control are in operation superintending the work on those 
rivers; but if they have any disagreement they come to the commis¬ 
sion lor further instructions. So the commission is supervising their 
work. 

Mr. Mason. May I interrupt you with a question? 

Mr. Kluttz. That is not an interruption; I am glad to answer 
any question. 

Mr. Mason. I am from Illinois, and I am deeply interested in the 
questions that are arising and may have already arisen before your 


commission. 

I simply want to inquire about this: I was talking with some of the 
trustees of our drainage canal recently. They are anxious to get 
more water; they are having some domestic trouble, that is, certain 
people in our own State and adjoining States fear that they will 
lower the water level; for instance, people in Wisconsin and Mich¬ 
igan fear that the water level will be disturbed by it; and I have 
been told that the Canadian Government has taken some steps, or 
has made some inquiries; and if it would not break your chain of 
thought at this time, T would like to know about that. 

Mr. Kluttz. Xot at all. No, sir; there lias not been any reference 
made, or any complaint made to the commission; the matter has 
never come officially before the commission. I have heard of it, just 
as you have, in a general sort of way by rumor. You are referring 
to the Chicago Drainage Canal? 

Mr. M ason. Yes. 

Mr. Ivluttz. No, sir; it has never come before the commission. 

The Chairman. What was the nature of the application of the 
International Lumber Co.? 

Mr. Kluttz. There was an application for a log boom in the Rainy 
River between Fort Frances and International Falls. 

The Chairman. Where was it heard? 

Mr. Kluttz. It was heard at Minneapolis. 

The Chairman. By whom? 

Mr. Kluttz. Because the witnesses were all near there; it saved 
a great deal of expense to have the hearing there. 

The Chairman. I am not criticizing it. 

Mr. Kluttz. Certainly, I understand. Most of the hearings are 
held in that way. 

The Chairman. I asked before whom was that particular hearing 
held? 

Mr. Kluttz. That hearing was held before the full commission; 
it always holds the hearings. 

The Chairman. How long did the commission sit on that particu¬ 
lar case ? 

Mr. Kluttz. I should say three or four days. It had some hearing 
on the Lake of the Woods matter at the same time. 

The Chairman. It was a matter that was disposed of very quickly. 


was it ? 

Mr. Kluttz. Very quickly; yes, sir; that was disposed of in a few 
months. 

The Chairman. Is that true of most of the applications that you 
have spoken of—the applications for privileges? 


206 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; most of them have been considered as law 
cases, the commission sitting as a court; the applicants have wanted 
to divert water for one purpose or another. One of them, you will 
notice, was an application from the city of Winnipeg. Most of them 
are applications by power companies wanting to obstruct or divert 
the waters; and I think they have been disposed of as quickly as pos¬ 
sible, in view of the interest involved. It took a long time to dis¬ 
pose of those two cases that the commission now has. the Lake of the 
Woods reference and the pollution of boundary waters reference. 

The Chairman. I want to ask you about that. The two big propo¬ 
sitions that you have are the Lake of the Woods and the pollution of 
the boundary waters cases ? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes. sir. 

The Chairman. Those other cases are applications on the part of 
American or Canadian citizens for privileges to build log booms or 
privileges to divert waters, or things of that sort ? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. One was of great importance, involving 
the damming of the outlet of Lake Superior at the “ Soo.” That 
was the Michigan Northern Power Co. case. 

The Chairman. How long did it take to hear that case? 

Mr. Kluttz. I think that was pending something over a year. 

The Chairman. But the commission did not take testimony all of 
that time? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; the commission took all the testimony. 

The Chairman. I know; but they did not sit continuously all that 
time ? 

Mr. Kluttz. No, sir. 

The Chairman. About how many days did they sit continuously 
hearing testimony on that case ? 

Mr. Kluttz. I do not remember; but I think it was probably as 
much as 40 days. They visited the locus in quo, of course. 

The Chairman. And the taking of the testimony and the visiting 
of the locus in quo involved about 40 days’ time ? 

Mr. Kluttz. In that case, yes; there were other matters pending. 

The Chairman. Well, I want to get something definite in regard 
to the labors of this commission. 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You have had some 12 or 15 of these applications 
since the creation of the commission in 1912. You have disposed of 
that number? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; at least that. 

The Chairman. You have also pending some applications of a 
similar nature, have you not? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And in addition to those you have the Lake of the 
Woods problem and the pollution of boundary waters case? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, that represents practically all the activities 
of your commission, does it not, since its creation? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many applications for privileges have you 
pending before the commission at the present time ? 

Mr. Kluttz. We have only one application that has not been dis¬ 
posed of in an interlocutory or temporary way, and that is the ap- 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 20T 

plication of the New York & Ontario Power Co. The St. Lawrence 
River Power Co. case may come up again; the order in that case only 
provides that they may have the work—a submerged weir—in the 
river for five years from the date of the order. 

The Chairman. I do not care about the details. What I want ta 
get is, in a general way, the amount of work which this commission 
has done since its creation. There have been some 12 or 15 applica¬ 
tions for privileges of one sort or another ? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you have pending before you applications 
for privileges which have not yet been passed upon? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Where is Mr. Gardner at the present time? 

Mr. Kluttz. He is at Kockland, Me.; they are all at their homes 
at this time. 

The Chairman. When was Mr. Gardner in Washington the last 
time ? 

Mr. Kluttz. A few weeks ago. 

The Chairman. Well, about how long ago, if you recollect? 

Mr. Kluttz. About a month ago, I should say. 

The Chairman. About a month ago? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And where is Mr. Clark at the present time? 

Mr. Kluttz. Mr. Clark is now in Montana. 

The Chairman. When was Mr. Clark in Washington last? 

Mr. Kluttz. He was here last September. 

Mr. Mason. Does he not live in Wyoming? 

Mr. Kluttz. He lives in Wyoming; yes. 

The Chairman. And the third member of the commission, from 
North Carolina. I have forgotten his name; when was he here last? 

Mr. Kluttz. They were all in New York last month—or, rather 
in the latter part of November. 

The Chairman. What is his name? 

Mr. Kluttz. R. B. Glenn. 

The Chairman. Where is he at the present time? 

Mr. Kluttz. At the present time he is in Winston-Salem, N. C. 
I am glad you asked me that question, Mr. Chairman. I want to 
explain that the whole idea in the constitution of this commission is 
that the members remain at their homes. Under the order of Presi¬ 
dent Taft appointing them, their homes are their official residences; 
they charge their expenses from their homes; they have no expenses 
in the city of Washington. This appropriation provides that spe¬ 
cifically. They reside at their homes except when they are attend¬ 
ing meetings of the commission, or except when they come here to 
look after routine matters. 

The Chairman. I am not questioning that. 

Mr. Kluttz. I know you are not. I just want to explain. 

The Chairman. I want to get at the amount of labor they per¬ 
form. 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. They work on all these matters at their 
homes; these hearings are all printed, partly for their consideration. 

The Chairman. How many hearings have they held during the 
last year? 


208 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Kluttz. During the last year, the commission, to speak with 
great frankness, has been in a state of suspended animation, by rea¬ 
son of the fact that there has been a vacancy on the Canadian side 
of the boundary. Mr. Mignault resigned, and the Canadian pre¬ 
mier was in France, and there was some suspension of governmental 
activities there; and the premier came back broken down in health, 
and undertook to resign recently; and only a few days ago he ap¬ 
pointed Sir William Hearst as Mr. Mignault’s successor. And the 
commission felt that it could not finally pass upon the matters before 
it when its personnel was in this depleted condition. 

The Chairman. I know; but how many hearings did the commis¬ 
sion hold within the last year, if any ? 

Mr. Kluttz. Do you mean the year just passed from this time? 

The Chairman. Yes; the year which has just passed. 

Mr. Kluttz. The commission has only been in session three times 
in that period. 

The Chairman. And where were those hearings held? 

Mr. Kluttz. They were held in Washington, in Ottawa, and in 
New York City. 

The Chairman. How long did the Washington session last? 

Mr. Kluttz. The Washington session lasted two days. 

The Chairman. How long did the session at Ottawa last? 

Mr. Kluttz. The Ottawa session lasted three days. 

The Chairman. And how long did the one at New York last? 

Mr. Kluttz. That lasted four days, I think. 

The Chairman. Then, during the last year you have had seven 
days of session, all told; is that correct ?' 

Mr. Kluttz. That would be about nine days, I believe. 

Mr. Conn ally. Yes; that would be nine days. 

The Chairman. Yes. At the Washington session, what business, 
if any, did they transact? 

Mr. Kluttz. They considered this request of the two countries for 
a draft of a treaty between the United States and Canada, or recip¬ 
rocal legislation by the two countries, for the purpose of carrying 
into effect the report relating to remedying the situation as to the 
pollution of boundary waters. That was primarily what they have 
been considering during the year. 

The Chairman. Well, during the last year, in which you say the 
commission was in a state of suspended animation, was any of the 
clerical force laid off? 

Mr. Kluttz. No, sir; the office work has been practically the same; 
the correspondence has been about the same; it has been continuous; 
there has been the necessity for the proper keeping of accounts also, 
and for much printing. There are only the secretary and one clerk, 
and the salary paid to the clerk is considerably less than it was. We 
had a change in the clerk; the old clerk resigned and a new one was 
appointed. 

The Chairman. What does the salary list amount to for this com¬ 
mission? 

Mr. Kluttz. Well, the salary of the clerk at this time is only 
$1,800 a year; the old clerk resigned because he could do better in 
business; he received a salary of $2,500, with the bonus. 

The Chairman. Have you conveniently at hand a statement show¬ 
ing the salaries paid by the commission ? 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 209 

Mr. Kluttz. I wanted to say also, Mr. Chairman, that at this 
meeting- 

The Chairman (interposing). Suppose we do not leave this sub¬ 
ject until we finish it, and then you can take other questions up. 

Mr. Kluttz. This is the same subject. I failed to include a meet¬ 
ing which was held in New York City less than a year ago; it was 
held last spring, I think. 

The Chairman. How many days did that session take? 

Mr. Kluttz. I should say three or four. 

The Chairman. Then, that would make the total 12 or IB days 
during the past year? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. May I ask Mr. Kluttz a question in that same connec¬ 
tion, Mr. Chairman? 

The Chairman. Yes; certainly. 

Mr. Rogers. How much have their expenses for which they are 
paid at the rate of $8 a day amounted to during the past year ? 

Mr. Kluttz. $8 a day; that is included in this statement, under 
the heading of “ Per diem in lieu of subsistence.” 

The Chairman. It says on this statement $1,408. 

Mr. Kluttz. The statement is correct. 

Mr. Goodwin. May I ask a question? Where physical questions 
are involved, such as the defining of a boundary line or a boundary 
stream, or other physical questions are to be considered, do the mem¬ 
bers of the commission ever go upon the ground themselves, or do 
they merely take testimony as affecting the controversy? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; they have visited all the places. For in¬ 
stance, they went to Massena, N. Y., where the Aluminum Co. of 
America, through its subsidiary, the St. Lawrence River Power 
Co., made an application; they went to the “ Soo ” in the Michi¬ 
gan Northern Power Co. case; and they went to Maine in another 
case; they went to Waddington, in the New York & Ontario Power 
Co. case.' I think it but fair, Mr. Goodwin, that I should state that 
during this period, when the commission has not been able to be 
active, it has been due to absolutely no fault of the commission. 

Mr. Goodwin. It was on account of the failure of the Canadian 
Government to appoint its commissioner? 

Mr. Kluttz. Absolutely. And at that meeting in New York last 
spring, Mr. Chairman, and again at the meeting in Ottawa in Octo¬ 
ber, the commission adopted a resolution, in the strongest language 
that it could use, urging upon the Canadian Government the appoint¬ 
ment of this commissioner, and stating that its activities were par¬ 
alyzed by reason of the failure to make this appointment, and I 
transmitted that commimication to both Governments. 

Mr. Goodwin. Do you know why the Canadian Government did 
not appoint its commissioner? 

Mr. Kluttz. It was solely due to the absence of the premier, I un¬ 
derstand. 

Mr. Goodwin. He was in London, I presume? 

Mr. Kluttz. He was in Paris. And then when he came back he 
went to Virginia Hot Springs; his health is impaired; he then went 
back to Canada and tendered his resignation; and the Government 

161477—20-14 



210 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

refused to accept it, and it is still in doubt as to whether they will 
accept it or not. 

The Chairman. When did that Canadian commissioner resign? 

Mr. Kluttz. He was appointed upon the supreme court of Canada, 
and resigned, to take effect October, a year ago. 

The Chairman. In the year immediately preceding his resignation, 
how many meetings did this commission have ? 

Mr. Kluttz. The meetings were much more numerous then; I 
could not tell off-hand; they were settling these various cases, that 
I have referred to, at that time. 

The Chairman. Can you prepare for us a statement showing what 
meetings were held, where they were held, and when they were 
held, and submit it to the committee? 

Mr. Kluttz. Certainly; I should be delighted to file that. 

(The statement referred to will be found in the hearing of January 
15 1920.) 

The Chairman. I notice here in this statement an item of trans¬ 
portation of persons, $1,430.31. What does that mean? 

Mr. Kluttz. That means primarily railroad fare, of course, prac¬ 
tically all of it to and from the meetings- 

The Chairman (interposing). Whom would it be transportation 
for? 

Mr. Kluttz. It would be for the commissioners and the secretary, 
and any engineers who might have attended any meetings, or the 
employees; but primarily, I think, the commission and the secretary. 

The situation that the chairman has developed- 

The Chairman (interposing). Pardon me just a moment. Do you 
keep an office docket? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; we keep an office docket. 

The Chairman. Does that docket show the cases? 

Mr. Kluttz. It shows the cases. 

The Chairman. Does it show all of them? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; it shows all of them. 

The Chairman. Well, the docket, I suppose, discloses where the 
hearings were held ? 

Mr. Kluttz. Well, the minutes of the commission disclose that, 
primarily. 

The Chairman. That data is not transferred to the docket? 

Mr. Kluttz. Not necessarily; no, sir; the docket is mostly for im¬ 
portant papers, you know, like court papers. 

The Chairman. Probably you misunderstand my use of the term 
“ docket.” I am using it according to the ideas of a lawyer. 

Mr. Kluttz. Well, the dockets consist mostly of references to the 
pleadings and the orders and important correspondence. 

Mr. Moores. I suggest that we had better bring in the minutes of 
the commission, Mr. Chairman, and see what they are. 

The Chairman. I think so; I think we should tiring in the minutes 
and the docket. 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes; I will be glad to do so. 

The Chairman. Because from those we can very closely determine 
the amount of work this commission has been doing. 

Mr. Browne. I would like to ask a question: Did the matter of the 
dispute between the United States and Canada over the Niagara 
Falls come before this commission? 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 211 


^°’. s * r ’ & has not come before the commission so 
tai although there is an article m the treaty relating to the division 
or the water there. * 

The Chairman. Now as to the Lake of the Woods, have you done 
an}/ work on that case tins past year? 

Mr. Kluttz. Not officially, because it has been between the two 
Governments; but unofficially, we have had a good deal of corre- 
spondence and counsel about it. The two Governments have been 
trymg to effectuate this report, just as they have been trying to 
effectuate the report in the pollution of boundary waters matter. 

Ine Chairman. Well, has there been any actual work done in the 
pollution of boundary waters case ? 

Ml Kltjttz. Tes, sir; a great deal, in the preparation of a treaty 
to submit to the two Governments, at their request, to carry out the 
report. 


The Chairman. Who has been working on that treaty? 

Mr. Kltjttz. The whole commission has, on both sides. 

dhe Chairman. In the sessions that they have held during the last 
year, four in number, what have they discussed. At the Washington 
session, for instance, what did they discuss ? 

Mr. Kluttz. They primarily discussed that treaty at all of those 
conferences, I should say, and they receive from time to time reports 
of those boards of control, and there is a good deal of routine matter 
to be considered. 

The Chairman. A little while ago I asked you about that Wash¬ 
ington session, as to what they had done, and my recollection is that 
you did not mention the treaty. 

Mr. Kluttz. I do not recall that. 

The Chairman. Am I correct in that? 

Mr. Klutts. The notes would show; but I know that they con¬ 
sidered it at that time. Mr. Tawney, who was such a valuable mem¬ 
ber of the commission, and who died during the year- 

The Chairman (interposing). Who succeeded him, Mr. Gardner? 

Mr. Kluttz. No, sir; lie was succeeded by former Senator Clark, 
of Wyoming. His death was a great loss to the commission. 

Mr. Sabath. When did Mr. Tawney die? 

Mr. Kluttz. Mr. Tawney died last June. 

Mr. Mason. Mr. Chairman, I will say for the benefit of my col¬ 
leagues on the committee that Mr. Clark was at one time chairman 
of the Judiciary Committee of the United States Senate; and I 
regard him as one of the greatest lawyers in this country—former 
Senator Clark, of Wyoming, who is a member of this commission. 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; he is a very valuable asset and acquisition 


to the commision. 

Mr. Mason. I remember when the late Senator Hoar, of Massa¬ 
chusetts turned the Judiciary Committee over to him. 

Mr. Connally. When these commissioners are at home they do not 
draw this subsistence allowance, do they ? 

Mr. Kltjttz. No, sir; they draw subsistence allowance only when 
they are at these meetings. They do not draw subsistence when they 
are in Washington, either. 

To be absolutely frank with the committee, I will say that the 
commission has been unable to accomplish much with this vacancy 
in the Canadian section. They have importuned the Canadian Gov- 



212 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


eminent and endeavored to get our Government to importune the 
Canadian Government to fill the vacancy. 

Now, we have had those two cases, the Lake of the Woods case and 
the pollution of boundary waters case, which involved large ex¬ 
pense ; we have had the tail ends of those cases before us during the 
year, and we have also had some new matters. 

We will have one matter before us during the coming year which 
is going to take a great deal of mone and which is going to take a 
great deal of time and which is going to take the very best ability 
of this commission, and that is the matter of the deep-waterway in¬ 
vestigation. Congress, as you gentlemen know, last March, in the 
river and harbor appropriation act, section 9, provided for an in¬ 
vestigation by this commission of the whole question of the improve¬ 
ment to make navigable for ocean-going vessels of the St. Lawrence 
River, between Montreal and Lake Ontario. They directed this com¬ 
mission to investigate and report upon that great question. 

The Government of the United States, in pursuance of the act of 
Congress, took up with the Government of the Dominion of Canada 
the matter of referring that question to this commission. That ques¬ 
tion has not yet been referred to the commission. There has been a 
great deal of correspondence about that matter, although it is not 
officially before us. But I know from correspondence that the two 
Governments have agreed upon a conference in accordance with the 
terms of the act of Congress last March, a representative of each 
Government has been appointed, and those two representatives have 
agreed upon a form of reference of that question to be submitted to 
the commission. 

Mr. Sabath. What question is that? 

Mr. Kluttz. It is the question of making navigable for ocean¬ 
going vessels of the St. Lawrence River between Montreal and Lake 
Ontario; and it involves immediately the whole vast question of 
power development along that river. 

Mr. Sabath. An appropriation has been made by Congress for 
that investigation, has it not? 

Mr. Kluttz. No, sir; there was no appropriation made. That will 
all have to be done—every cent of it—under this small appropriation 
that we have, with which we have been, as you gentlemen will see 
from this statement, very economical; we have expended very little 
more than the salaries of the commission and the office expenses. 

Mr. Rogers. Has that statement been put in the record? 

Mr. Kluttz. No, sir; but it has been filed with the committee. 

(The statement referred to will be found in the hearing of January 
15, 1920.) *'1 

Mr. Kluttz. In this coming year—I want to make this as emphatic 
as I can—we have largely finished up this work that took up our 
appropriation in bygone years, and we have not had the expenses 
attendant upon these cases in the recent past. But in the year to 
come we will have a case that will take money and will take time; 
it is by far the biggest case that has ever come before the commission. 

Mr. Sabath. Pardon me for interrupting. But you stated that 
the committee had had four sittings during the year, amounting in 
all to about 14 days. Is that all the work that has been done by the 
commission ? 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


213 


Mr. Kluttz. No, sir; it is not; because at their homes they have 
to study the questions that come before the commission, and the com¬ 
mission has always been like an open court, consisting of three citi¬ 
zens of each country, a unique tribunal of arbitral justice in the 
world to-day, ready and open to pass upon any question of con¬ 
troversy between the two Governments. That is worth something. 

Mr. Sabath. And they have made investigations and prepared re¬ 
ports and made rulings? 

Mr. Kluttz. They have done absolutely all that they have been 
asked to do. The commission can not act without the request of the 
Governments. Your question brings that out very clearly; the two 
Governments must ask the commission to act; it has done everything 
that it has been asked to do, and has been eager to do everything that 
the Governments asked it to undertake. 

Mr. Mason. Well, as a matter of fact, the very existence of the 
commission, the fact that that commission is there, may be of value; 
and you get numerous requests for information and give out answers; 
and all of that prevents litigation and prevents trouble. The very 
fact that that commission is in existence, like the existence of other 
commissions of arbitration, prevents a certain amount of cantanker¬ 
ous quarreling among people, because they know that there is a place 
to which they can go, and they are likely to go to it. 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. That is most true. 

Mr. S abath. And you do not think it would be more beneficial to 
appoint a new commission for each and every case, so that when they 
should complete their work, we will say, on a certain question, they 
should be discharged and in three or four months a new commission 
be created? 

Mr. Kluttz. No, sir; that would be an impossible situation, be¬ 
cause this commission should endure as long as the waters run be¬ 
tween the two countries; because as long as that great common 
property exists there will be the necessity for some tribunal to pass 
upon the great rights involved in it. It is the greatest water frontier 
between any two countries in the world, the greatest in extent and the 
greatest in value. It is the greatest asset that the Dominion of 
Canada possesses; it is, perhaps, the greatest asset that the United 
States possesses. 

Mr. Sabath. And as we are proceeding to develop the water power, 
there will be more work for the commission ? 

Mr. Kluttz. Absolutely. 

Mr. Houghton. What was the appropriation last year? 

Mr. Kluttz. $75,000. 

Mr. Houghton. Did you spend it all? 

Mr. Kluttz. No, sir;*we spent only half of it; being, as I say, in 
this State where we could not do very much, and where, to speak 
frankly, there was not very much to do. 

Mr. * Houghton. How about this year? Do you want $7o,000 

more? , „ . . ... .. 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; under the terms of the act we will return all 

of it unexpended to the Treasury. . , ,. 

Mr Houghton. All the unexpended balance goes back to the 
Treasury; and what you ask for is what you expect to spend, I 
suppose ? 


214 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. During this coming year I can not tell j 
what that St. Lawrence River investigation may cost; it may be that 
this amount will not be adequate; we can not tell. And that is true 
every year; you can not tell what these two Governments may call 
upon this commission to do. They have to do what they are called 
upon to do, and the appropriation has to be stretched out to try to 
cover it. And it is particularly desirable during the coming year- 

Mr. Houghton (interposing). Has the commission ever expended 
all the funds allotted to it ? 

Mr. Kluttz. It has not in very recent years expended the full 
amount. 

Mr. Houghton. There has been a surplus each year? 

Mr. Kluttz. There has been a surplus each year; yes, sir. 

Mr. Houghton. What was the surplus year before last? 

Mr. Kluttz. I do not remember; I have not the figures with me, 
but I should say it was possibly from $7,000 to $10,000. 

Mr. Connally. I think the example that your commission is setting 
other branches of the Government service by turning part of its 
appropriation back into the Treasury is worth something. 

Mr. Kluttz. We have tried to make it as economical as possible. 

Mr. Houghton. Well, if it is a case of suspended animation, it is 
not such a very good example after all. 

Mr. Connally. Well, we have to have the commission; the treaty 
requires it; and it has done all that has been asked of it. And I 
have never thought that it was a just criticism of a court that it had 
not transacted much business if it had transacted all the business that 
came before it. 

Mr. Kluttz. We have done all the work we had to do. 

Mr. Connally. I suppose if the commission did not get business 
enough, and they wanted to do so, means could be found for stirring 
up rows enough to keep the commission busy. 

Mr. Kluttz. It is better to have peace and cordiality between the 
two countries. 

Mr. Connally. To be sure; and that is the object of the commis¬ 
sion. 

Mr. Kluttz. The Canadian Government has invariably appropri¬ 
ated $75,000 for the Canadian part of the commission; and that is 
why we are asking for it; we have tried to standardize this appro¬ 
priation. The Dominion of Canada has appropriated every year 
since the beginning of the commission $75,000 for the Canadian sec¬ 
tion of the commission, to pay its salaries and its one-half of the 
joint expenses of the commission. 

Mr. Rogers. Do their commissioners get $7,500 ? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes; they get exactly the same salary. 

Mr. Rogers. And this last year also? 

Mr. Kluttz. Absolutely the same. 

Mr. Rogers. Their commissioners do no more work than our com¬ 
missioners, do they? 

Mr. Kluttz. They do absolutely the same. 

I would like to read to the committee a statement of the Governor 
General of Canada, the Duke of Devonshire, made at a dinner of 
the Canadian Club, at Chateau Laurier, Ottawa. He said, in part: 

During the 11 months in which I have had the privilege of being amongst 
you I have had many interesting and memorable days, but amongst those mem- 






DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


215 


orable and interesting days through which 1 have passed there are two which 
will find a very pleasant place in my memory. Only a few days ago I had the 
privilege *of entertaining and meeting the members of the International Joint 
Commission. I will frankly confess that when I came to Canada I had not the 
faintest notion what the International Joint Commission was, or what it did— 
and perhaps in saying that I may find a great number, even in this audience, 
who do not know what the International Joint Commission is, or what it does. 
The mere fact that they do not know is only a true indication of the work 
which it has accomplished. We are celebrating this year the fiftieth anniver¬ 
sary of our confederation. Perhaps in that long time some of the greatest diffi¬ 
culties have confronted our statesmen. 

Immediately after confederation became an accomplished fact there were 
differences between not only Canada but also Great Britain and the British 
Empire and our great neighbor to the south. Not only have those differences 
disappeared—it is always dangerous to make prophecies, but I think I am safe 
now in prophesying that they have disappeared never to appear again. [Ap¬ 
plause.] But there must necessarily be, in the case of a long and to a certain 
extent undefined boundary, difficulties which inevitably develop, and changes 
must produce various questions to be settled. Those questions may involve ex¬ 
tensive inquiries, extensive investigation, but it is a matter of great gratitude 
and thankfulness for us all to know that those questions, even involving, as they 
very often do, issues of far-reaching importance, have been, and I believe will 
continue to be, settled in a most friendly, open, and amicable manner; so much 
so that if any of these questions require, as they must necessarily require from 
time to time, adjustment, they are settled with so much friendliness, so much 
satisfaction to all parties concerned, that the general public need never hear 
about it.’ 

The other occasion which leaves a very pleasant recollection in my memory 
was when, a few weeks ago, I had the privilege, possibly for the first time it 
has ever fallen to the Governor General of Canada, to call for three cheers for 
the President of the United States on Canadian soil. [Applause.] 

Mr. Rogers. Mr. Kluttz, I think it may be well to put in the rec¬ 
ord, for the possible interest of the committee when it makes up the 
bill, a brief history of the appropriations for this purpose. 

The first appropriation was for the year 1909; $10,000 was appro¬ 
priated, and practically all of it was spent. In 1910, $10,000 was 
appropriated and $8,000 spent; in 1911, $75,000 appropriated and 
$25,000 spent; in 1912, $75,000 appropriated and $36,000 spent; in 
1913, no appropriation, $54,000 spent; in 1914, $100,000 appropriated, 
$83,000 spent; in 1915, $50,000 appropriated and $82,000 spent; in 
1916, $55,000 appropriated; in 1917, 1918, 1919, and 1920, $75,000 
was appropriated each year, but I have not the record of the ex¬ 
penditures. I understand that you have that information ? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; we will bring that down to date. 

Mr. Rogers. I think it will be well to have the expentidures shown. 
The last expenditure shown was in 1915. 

(The statement referred to is as follows:) 


Appropriations, disbursements, and unexpended balances of the Intelnationdd 
Joint Commission for the fiscal years 1917-1919. 


Fiscal year. 

New appro¬ 
priation. 

Total appro¬ 
priation and 
balance. 

Disburse¬ 

ments. 

Balance. 

Reimburse¬ 

ments. 

1916-17. 

$69,000.00 

$80,339. 85 

$50,405.44 

i $29,934.41 
i 32,727.45 
i 39,496.04 

2 $292.09 

1917-18. 

75,000.00 

75,000. 00 

42,2/2. 44 


1918-19. 

75,000.00 

75,000. 00 

35,503. 96 



1 Unexpended balances not reappropriated. 

2 Reimbursements are “costs” of case charged to applicants. 


Mr. Rogers. The detailed financial summary for thejiscal year 
ended last June shows that you spent $35,500 out of $75,000 ? 
























216 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Ivluttz. Yes. 

Mr. Rogers. Of which amount $28,000 went for salaries, th.e major 
part of that being, of course, for the three commissioners. What 
is your salary? 

Mr. Ivluttz. My salary is $4,000. 

Mr. Rogers. And what is the salary of the clerk? 

Mr. Ivluttz. The salary of the clerk is $1,800. 

Mr. Mason. How long have you been secretary of the commission ? 

Mr. Ivluttz. I have been secretary of the commission since Janu¬ 
ary, 1914; it requires my entire time here in Washington, of course. 

Mr. Rogers. So that, outside of salaries of the five permanent 
officials and employee—the three commissioners, the secretary, and 
the clerk—the total expenses for last year were $7,000, or there¬ 
abouts ? 

Mr. Ivluttz. Yes, sir. 

What you have just said, Mr. Rogers, suggests this: We have, in 
fact, incurred expenses of more than $3,000 for this year, for which 
the figures have just been placed in the record, which do not appear 
there, and which are not paid by the Government of the United 
States. 

Under a provision in the rules of procedure, we have a right to 
assess against these applicants certain costs, like courts do; and we 
have done that. I have been doing it ever since I came to the com¬ 
mission, and have collected from time to time considerable sums of 
money by way of reimbursement to the Government, where the com¬ 
mission had expended it. Recently, as a simpler form of procedure 
and to cut short the red tape involved in so much accounting, I have 
been thinking of making them pay the bills directly for printing 
in certain matters. 

Here is this document [indicating], which costs over $1,000 T 
printed at the Government Printing Office, with a number of illus¬ 
trations in it. It represents the hearings in the New York & On¬ 
tario Power Co. application; it contains maps and some illus¬ 
trations. I expect to have that paid directly to the Public Printer 
by the New York & Ontario Power Co. 

Mr. Rogers. Have you the legal right to do that? 

Mr. Kluttz. The Public Printer’s accountants thought so; I asked 
them about it. 

Mr. Rogers. Of course, in the case of court receipts in the United 
States courts, I understand that those have to be turned into the 
Treasury of the United States, or accounted for to the Treasury. 

Mr. Ivluttz. Yes. Well, you see we have never expended any 
money on this. 

Mr. Mason. I do not think you would have the absolute power to 
compel it; but if they are willing to do it, it does not appear to be 
at all out of the way. 

Mr. Ackerman. Would not that create a precedent with other 
people who wanted to have printing done there? 

Mr. Rogers. It strikes me that, while I have no doubt of the econ¬ 
omy of the practice, you ought to be very certain that that ought not 
to go through the Treasury. 

Mr. Kluttz. Do you mean just as to the method of doing it? 

Mr. Rogers. Just as to the method of doing it, because I think it is 
highly proper to assess the costs of printing these documents upon 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 217 

the private parties; but 1 should be extremely skeptical as to the 
propriety of doing it in that way. 

Mr. Kluttz. You may be right about that. This bill is only in 
process of payment now, and I can have it paid in the manner you 
suggest when I receive the company’s remittance. 

Mr. Rogers. Well, it occurs to me that, as a matter of Government 
accounting, you ought to pay your receipts into the Treasury or ac¬ 
count for them to the Treasury. 

Mr. Conn ally. He has never had any receipts on these. 

Mr. Rogers. That is what he says. 

Mr. Connally. Well, the money did not pass through his hands. 

Mr. Rogers. In this particular case it does not; but you have 
always done it- 

Mr. Kluttz (interposing). I have always done it in the way you 
have thought best; that is, we have paid the bill and had it deducted 
from our appropriation by an auditor’s adjustment; and then I have 
had them send me a check and have transmitted it in settlement to 
the Public Printer; that is the way that was done. But I thought 
it would be easier just to let them send me a check payable to the 
Public Printer, transmit it, and settle it in that way; our corre¬ 
spondence would show it any way; and the acountant could not see 
that it made any difference. 

Here is some printing done by the King’s printer in Canada [indi¬ 
cating] : that is the record of the St. Lawrence River Power Co. case. 
It has a good many illustrations in it; and they charge more for 
printing there than they do here; and that is paid directly to the 
King’s printer by the Aluminum Co. of America, the St. Lawrence 
River Pow T er Co. being a subsidiary of that company. So that there 
is something like $3,000 that does not appear in that statement that 
would have been chargeable if we had to pay it; but by our vigilance 
and economy w T e are making these applicants pay it. I was not cer¬ 
tain but that what you had in mind, Mr. Rogers, was whether we had 
any right to do that or not. 

Mr. Rogers. It is just a question of the method. I entirely agree 
on the propriety of the result. 

Mr. Moores. 'I think they undoubtedly have the same right that 
the Supreme Court has to do that. 

Mr. Kluttz. That is the way we looked at it. 

Mr. Moores. There is no statute on the subject; but the Supreme 
Court has adopted rules requiring the printing to be done at the ex¬ 
pense of the parties; and if you have rules to that effect you can have 
it done at the expense of the parties at the Government Printing 
Office. 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; that is what we are doing. 

Mr. Moores. I do not think there is any question about the power 

of doing that. . „ . , . . ., . *. 

Mr. Rogers. Well, this is not a brief m these cases; it is the testi- 

111 Mr. Mason. It is the same principle; the expense is borne by the 
parties making the application. 

Mr. Moores. If they can do that in the case of a brief, I do not see 
why they can not do it in the case of the testimony; it constitutes 
the record in the case. 



218 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Conn ally. I agree entirely with Mr. Moores on that propo¬ 
sition. 

Mr. Ivluttz. This document, however [indicating], contains not 
only the hearings, but the order and decision of the commission; it is 
an interlocutory order, but that was as far as the commission could 
go at that time. 

Mr. Dickinson. Does this treaty terminate at any specific time, or 
is it a continuous treaty? 

Mr. Klauttz. It is continuous, unless denounced by either Govern¬ 
ment on one year’s notice. 

Mr. Rogers. It remains in force five years from May 5, 1910, and 
thereafter until terminated by 12 months’ written notice, given by 
either party. 

Mr. Kluttz, referring to that second paragraph under your item of 
appropriation, which appropriates $6,000 for services rendered and 
expenses incurred under the direction of the Secretary of State in the 
examination and preparation of cases involving boundary waters, 
and so on, has that appropriation been utilized this last year? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. Is Mr. Wyveil still the counsel for the commission 
under that paragraph ? 

Mr. Kluttz. No, sir; Hon. George Turner is and has been for a 
considerable period of time counsel for the Government. 

Mr. Rogers. Was Mr. Wyvell counsel at one time? 

Mr. Kluttz. He was at one time; yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. When did Mr. Turner succeed him? 

Mr. Kluttz. I would have to refer to the State Department to find 

Mr. Kluttz. Well, that covers the salary and expenses; it is 
segregated item, you see. 

Mr. Rogers. Yes. 

Mr. Kluttz. And it is disbursed by the State Department directly. 
It has been a good while ago; more than a year; it was prior to the 
period covered by this account here [indicating]. Mr. Wyvell, for a 
period prior to the time when he resigned, was receiving only a per 
diem when he was employed; but Hon. George Turner was appointed, 
as Mr. Wyvell was originally appointed and as Mr. Wyvell served 
for most of the period of his incumbency, on a salary basis. 

Mr. Rogers. What is the salary now ? 

Mr. Kluttz. It seems to be $6,000. 

Mr. Rogers. It does not indicate that that is the salary. 

Mr. Kluttz. Well, that governs the salary and expenses; it is 
$5,000 for salary and $1,000 for expenses, I understand. As I say, 
it is not a matter that comes through our office. 

Mr. Rogers. Who is Mr. George Turner? 

Mr. Kluttz. He was formerly a Senator from the State of Wash¬ 
ington, a very distinguished lawyer, and a former member of this 
commission. 

Mr. Rogers. Has he had any functions to perform this last year 
of which you are aware ? 

Mr. Kluttz. He has met in consultation with the commission 
under this treaty. 

Mr. Rogers. He has done about what they have done, in other 
words ? 

Mr. Kluttz. A good deal on the order of that. 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 219 

Mr. Rogers. It would not be possible or practicable to combine 
this second paragraph with the first one ? 

Mr. Ivluttz. No, sir. The chairman of the commission appeared 
before the Senate committee in regard to that; they wished to make 
the matter perfectly clear. It tends toward cordiality in the rela¬ 
tions between the two Governments, as well as according with the 
fact that this counsel is not a counsel for the United States section 
of the commission. The commission is a court; it has not any counsel. 
Courts do not have counsel representing the court. He is counsel 
for the Government of the United States; he represents the Gov¬ 
ernment of the United States, and the Canadian Government has 
a counsel who represents that Government. The Province of Onta¬ 
rio, which, of course, is primarily interested in these waters, has 
counsel representing it. And it should be absolutley segregated; 
that is just the way that the commission tried so hard to get it, and 
the way it ought to be—a segregated item. 

Mr. Dickinson. Is here any reason why the work of this com¬ 
mission could not be carried out by the State Department? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; there is every reason, because the State De¬ 
partment would represent only the Government of the United States, 
whereas this commission represents two Governments, consisting of 
citizens of both countries, coming together around a table, just like 
you gentlemen are here, and discussing face to face, after hearing 
all the evidence, the matter of the settlement of controversies be¬ 
tween these two great nations; it is a direct and immediate method. 

Mr. Dickinson. There is no reason why the British Government 
could not appoint a man from their department of state and have 
the same matter determined in the same way, is there ? 

Mr. Kluttz. They would not have the power. This commission 
has jurisdiction by treaty. Even if they could do it, it would involve 
a separate tribunal in every case, just as was suggested a little while 
ago; it would not produce the continuous, cordial cooperation such 
as we have here, and it could not accomplish the same results, be¬ 
cause this commission is constituted under the terms of a treaty, 
which gives it power and authority and jurisdiction which is final in 
the great majority of the cases involved. 

Mr. Dickinson. Do you think that there has been enough activity 
in this commission for the last year to warrant its continuation? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; I do; taking into consideration its con¬ 
tinuous history since 1912, it has settled more cases than were settled 
by diplomatic interchange in the previous history of the two coun¬ 
tries—finally settled more. 

Mr Dickinson. But policies have been worked out now under 
this treaty by which most of these matters could be determined in a 

summary way, have they not ? 

Mr. Kluttz. Only perhaps the old matters. New matters will 
arise from time to time; and Congress, as I said, has just asked 
the commission, and the two Governments will soon ask the com¬ 
mission. to determine a question that is absolutely vital to the People 
of a very great section of the United States. By acts of five State 

legislatures they have appointed 

Mr. Rogers (interposing). Is not this the real question, Mr. 
Kluttz, that assuming, if you like, for the sake of argument, that 
the treaty has served its usefulness and might be denounced—might 




220 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


be terminated, as its terms require, by 12 months’ notice ne^ erthe- 
less, until Congress, in an orderly way, does denounce that treaty, we 
must make the appropriations that the treaty requires as a matter ot 
national honor? 

Mr. Kluttz. Exactly. 

Mr. Dickinson. Is there anything in the treaty which provides 
that there shall be three commissioners who shall receive a salary 
of $7,500 each for doing this work ? 

Mr. Rogers. No; there is not- 

Mr. Conn ally. But the treaty provides for the number of com¬ 
missioners. 

Mr. Rogers. Yes; the treaty provides the number 

Mr. Atkinson. Did you say that President Taft appointed the 
commission ? . 

Mr. Kluttz. President Taft proclaimed the treaty and appointed 
the original commissioners. 

Mr. Atkinson. How long have these present commissioners been 
serving ? 

Mr. Kluttz. Mr. Gardner has been serving since September, 1913; 
Mr. Glenn since March, 1914; and Mr. Clark since last July. 

Mr. Newton. Mr. Clark succeeded Mr. Tawney, did he not? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes; Mr. Tawney died in June. 

The Chairman. The treaty provides for three commissioners rep¬ 
resenting each Government, does it not ? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes. 

The Chairman. But it does not fix any salaries? 

Mr. Kluttz. No, sir. 

Mr. Moores. Has not this committee those three original volumes 
with the treaty in them ? They ought to be here. 

Mr. Kluttz. I have the treaty here and can find the section that 
provides for the constitution of the commission. Mr. Chairman, I 
would like to put in the record a brief resume of the work and find¬ 
ings of the commission in its investigation of the pollution of bound¬ 
ary waters reference. 

The Chairman. All right; and you will bring that docket and the 
minutes up here to-morrow morning? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. This deep-water-way question has been submitted to 
the commission, has it? 

Mr. Kluttz. No, sir. Congress passed the act, and then the two 
Governments took up directly the question of submitting it. You 
see, Canada did not make any request for the investigation of the 
navigability of the St. Lawrence River for ocean-going vessels. So 
that our Government, instead of submitting it directly, took it up 
with the Dominion of Canada to get them to agree, so that there 
would be cooperation in the matter and what the commission did 
would have the sanction of the two Governments, so that we could 
get somewhere. That is what they have always done in these ques¬ 
tions. Although either Government can submit a question, it is 
better that both Governments do so; and the two Governments have 
agreed upon a form of reference and it will shortly be submitted; it 
has not yet been submitted. Our Government has forwarded it to 
the Dominion Government. In fact, the two gentlemen who repre- 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 221 

sented the two Governments in getting up this form of reference 
have sent it to Canada, and as soon as they accept it it will be referred 
to the commission. 

But the work under it will—a part of it—be done during the bal¬ 
ance of this year if it comes along soon, and certainly during the next 
fiscal year the funds will be necessary to carry on that investigation, 
which will be by all odds the most important matter that has ever 
come before the commission; it affects more people and involves 
greater interests. 

Mr. Smith of Illinois. Does the Canadian commission receive the 
same salary as the American commission? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; they receive the same salary. 

Mr. 'Smith of Illinois. That is paid by the Canadian Government? 

Mr. Ivluttz. Paid by the Canadian Government; yes, sir. 

Mr. Moores. Congress does not fix their compensation; the Presi¬ 
dent fixes their compensation? 

Mr. Kluttz. It was provided by Executive order. 

Mr. Moores. The treaty says: 

The salaries of the members of the commission on the part of the United 
States shall he fixed by the President, and the amount appropriated for the 
payment of salaries shall be disbursed under the direction of the Secretary of 
State. 

Mr. Newton. Just what work are they now doing in the northern 
part in the matter of the overflow of rivers and lakes, and so on? 
They have had considerable work along that line, have they not? 

Mr. Kluttz. Principally this Lake of the Woods matter. 

Mr. Newton. The Lake of the Woods has bothered them, and the 
Rainy River? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes; when the two Governments finally accept the 
recommendations in that case—you see, that is under article 9 of 
the treaty; they could not file an award there—there will be more 
work on that. When the two Governments agree upon the definite 
terms of the report the commission, under its terms, will have a good 
deal more work to do in connection with that report, with regard to 
the value of overflowed lands, the regulation of the lake levels, and 
the conservation of that extensive watershed. 

Mr. Moores. The salary of the Canadian commissioners is fixed by 
the Governor General in" council, but not in any case to exceed the 
sum of $T,500 per annum. The secretary appointed by the Canadian 
section shall receive a sum not exceeding $3,000 per annum. 

Mr. Kluttz. That is the original Canadian act; that is the old 
ac t—the first act passed; and the section of the treaty that we are 
looking for- 

Mr. Moores (interposing). Well, I have been looking at that. 

Mr. Sabath. When were the commissioners first appointed? 

Mr. Kluttz. I think, in January, 1912. 

Mr. Sabath. And I understood that the salary was fixed by Presi¬ 
dent Taft? 

Mr. Kluttz. By President Taft ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. He made it $7,500? 

Mr. Kluttz. He made it $7,500; yes, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. And President Wilson has not increased it? 

Mr. Kluttz. No, sir; it remains what it was, notwithstanding that 
everything else has been increased very much since that time. 



222 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Rogers. Are there any more questions? Thank you, Mr. 
Kluttz. 

Mr. Kluttz. You are very welcome. I thank you very much for 
this courteous hearing. 

(Thereupon, at 12.30 o’clock p. m., the committee went into execu¬ 
tive session, and at 1.30 o’clock adjourned.) 


(The following memorandum was subsequently submitted by Mr. 
Kluttz:) 

Casks Before the International Joint Commission from 1912 to 1920 :. 


Rainy River Improvement Co. 

Watrous Island Boom Co. 

Lake of the Woods levels. 

Pollution of boundary waters. 

Livingstone and other channels in the Detroit River. 

Michigan Northern Power Co. 

Greater Winnipeg water district. 

Algoma Steel Corporation (Ltd.). 

Milk and St. Mary Rivers. 

The St. Croix Water Pow r er Co. 

Sprague’s Falls Manufacturing Co. (Ltd.). 

International Lumber Co. 

United States Government for approval of the improvement of the St. Clair 
River at or near the town of Port Huron, Mich. 

New York & Ontario Power Co. 

St. Lawrence River Power Co. 

Canadian Cottons (Ltd.). 


Committee on Foreign Affairs, 

House of Representatives, 

W ashing ton, D. G., January 15, 1920. 
The committee assembled at 10.30 o’clock a. m., Hon. Stephen G. 
Porter (chairman) presiding. 

The Chairman. Who succeeded Mr. Tawney, Mr. Kluttz? 

STATEMENT OF MR. WHITEHEAD KLUTTZ, SECRETARY INTER¬ 
NATIONAL JOINT COMMISSION—Resumed. 

Mr. Kluttz. He was succeeded by former Senator Clark of 
Wyoming—Clarence D. Clark, of Evanston, Wyo. 

The Chairman. When was Mr. Clark appointed? 

Mr. Kluttz. He was appointed early last July, according to my 
best recollection; Mr. Tawney died on the 12th of June, and the 
appointment was made about three weeks after that. 

The Chairman. 1919? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Has Mr. Clark ever taken part in a hearing since 
his appointment? 

Mr. Kluttz. The minutes you have there show, I think, that the 
only meeting held since his appointment was the meeting in New 
York last November; he took part in that. 






DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 22& 

The Chairman. Well, the last meeting shown in your docket is 
of date April 3. & j 

Mr. Kluttz. That is due to the fact that these others are not 
approved and are therefore in typewritten form. There is that one 
and the one at Ottawa in the front of that book [indicating]. They 
have not been written up; they are not yet approved. 

The Chairman. Are you so busy that you have not had time to 
write them up ? 

Mr. Kluttz. r l hey have not been approved; they are not put in 
the book until they are approved. Mr. Clark attended the meeting 
at Ottawa; I did not just now recall that; he attended that meeting 
but was called away by the illness and death of his daughter. He 
went to both of those sessions, the one at Ottawa in October and 
the one at New York in November. 

Mr. Rogers. Were all three commissioners at all three meetings? 

Mr. Kluttz. They were all three at the meeting in New York in 
November. Mr. Glenn was not at the meeting in Ottawa; he was- 
at the meeting in New York. 

Mr. Rogers. And how about the third meeting? Was that in 
Washington? 

Mr. Kluttz. There was a meeting in Washington in April, and a 
meeting in New York prior to that during the calendar year. 

Mr. Rogers. Were all three of these commissioners at both of 
those meetings ? 

Mr. Kluttz. Mr. Glenn was at the meeting in New York in No¬ 
vember ; he was not at the prior meetings on acount of ill health. 

Mr. Rogers. He attended only one of the meetings? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; he attended only one of the meetings, due 
to ill health; his health is better now; he had a very serious break¬ 
down. There is a draft of the minutes of that meeting at Ottawa 
and there is also a digest of it in this chronological abstract which 
I have brought up to date, taken from the minutes. The Ottawa 
draft does not appear in the written minutes for the reason I gave; 
but there is a full digest of it here in this record [indicating]. 

Mr. Rogers. Was Mr. Gardner at all of the meetings? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; Mr. Gardner was at all of the meetings, 
and Mr. Clark has been at both meetings since he was appointed; 
and Mr. Glenn expects to be at all future meetings on account of the 
improvement in his health. 

The Chairman. May I suggest to the committee that we have 
Mr. Kluttz prepare for us a statement showing the hearings held 
since January 1, 1919. 

This record shows that the meetings in 1919 were as follows: 

Tuesday, Januarv 14, 1919, the commission met in New York City,. 
Messrs, (Jardner, Magrath, and Tawney being present; and Messrs. 
Powell and Glenn being absent. No quorum. Adjourned until Wed¬ 
nesday, January 15. 

January 15, 1919, the commission met in the Biltmore Hotel, New 
York City, all members except Mr. Glenn present; continued in 

session during the day. . ___ _ . A ~ , 

April 1, 1919, the commission met m Washington, Messrs. Gard¬ 
ner, Magrath, Powell, and Tawney being present; Mr. Glenn absent 
on account of illness, and the vacancy caused by the resignation of 
Mr. Mignault not having yet been filled. 


224 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


April 2, 1919, the commission met in Washington, the same mem¬ 
ber being present as on April 1. 

April 3, 1919, the commission again met in Washington, the same 
members being present as on the preceding days. 

There the docket entries end for 1919. 

Mr. Kluttz, however, has a typewritten memorandum showing 
that on November 20, 1919, a meeting was held in New York City; 
present Commissioners Gardner, Powell, Glenn, and Clark; and 
states that there was a regular meeting at Ottawa on October 3, 
1919, at which Commissioners Magrath, Gardner, Powell, and Clark 
were present; Mr. Magrath presided. 

Mr. Houghton. Mr. Chairman, what constitutes a quorum of the 
commission ? 

The Chairman. I assume a majority. 

Mr. Houghton. That is, one Canadian and three Americans? 
How is that? 

The Chairman. Yes; that question would arise in this case. 

Mr. Houghton. I see that you adjourned for want of a quorum 
at one place. 

Mr. Kluttz. I would assume from that adjournment that the in¬ 
terpretation was that it would require at least two of each section; 
that would seem to be the idea there, although a quorum of the com¬ 
mission is four, there being six members. 

Mr. Mason. But not where it was a joint commission. 

Mr. Kluttz. I would think not. 

Mr. Mason. It takes a majority of both sections; for instance, if 
it was bipartite agreement or a joint agreement. It would take a 
majority for, for instance, in a legislative body where they meet in 
joint session to elect a United States Senator having failed to elect 
separately; the courts have held that a quorum there means a ma¬ 
jority of both of those bodies. 

Mr. Houghton. I assumed that; and I wondered what the rule 
of this commission was. 

Mr. Kluttz. Apparently that was the rule. 

Mr. Houghton. Apparently it is; but that is a deduction; you do 
not know. 

Mr. Kluttz. I can only assume it; that is all. 

Mr. Rogers. May I ask also if it is provided in the rules or the 
by-laws of the commission that meetings shall be held at least once 
every quarter? 

Mr. Kluttz. No, sir; there are two regular meetings provided 
for, one the first Tuesday in April, at Washington, and one the first 
Tuesday in October, at Ottawa; those are regular meetings; the 
others are special meetings. Those two meetings were duly held 
during the year, as you will notice' from the docket, 

I want to say, in regard to the quorum at New York, that it ap¬ 
pears from the reading of the minutes that Mr. Powell was detained 
in Northern Canada by a snow-bound train, and arrived later. I 
can give you the information you want in a very few minutes. 

The Chairman. Suppose you let me ask you a few questions, and 
then you can give it. 

Mr. Kluttz. Certainly. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


225 


The Chairman. You stated yesterday that the inability of the 
commission to meet was due to the fact that the Canadian* Govern¬ 
ment had not appointed a commissioner to take the place of the 
commissioner who had died? 

Mr. Kluttz. Resigned. 

The Chairman. Well, it was not necessary to have that commis¬ 
sioner present, so far as the quorum was concerned, was it, if the 
two other Canadian commissioners were able to act? 

Mr. Kluttz. No, sir. It was necessary in order to reach any de¬ 
cision upon matters pending before the commission to have a full 
commission, in the judgment of the commission, as set forth in the 
minutes, when they requested the Canadian Government to make 
this appointment as early as possible, as they did in New York in 
January and in Ottawa in October; and Mr. Glenn, while he was 
ill, was able to sign any orders or opinions, and did so in some cases; 
whereas there was an absolute vacancy on the Canadian side. 
Thought he could not come to those meetings, could study questions 
and could sign decisions and orders. 

The Chairman. You have prepared for the committee the chrono¬ 
logical abstract of sessions held during the year 1917? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; 1917, 1918, and 1919. 

The Chairman. And this abstract is taken from the record book 


which I have before me? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And shows all of the meetings? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And the matters considered since January 1, 
1917, to date? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; that is correct. 

The Chairman. I think, gentlemen, that that should be printed 
as a part of the hearings, as it shows definitely exactly what duties 
were performed by the commission. 

(The statement referred to is as follows;) 


International Joint Commission. 

CHRONOLOGICAL ABSTRACT OF SESSIONS DURING CALENDAR YEAR 1017. 

Minneapolis, Minn, (special session). 

January 22, 1917. Considered the application of the International Lumber 
Co for approval of its application to obstruct the waters of the Rainy River 
at International Falls. Minn., hearing legal and engineering representatives 
of both governments. Adopted order curing delay in tiling statements in 
response and reply statement. 

Januarv 23, 1917. Resumed consideration of the application of the Inter¬ 
national Lumber Co. for approval of its application to obstruct the waters of 
the Itainv River at International Falls, Minn. 

Tanuarv 24 1917 Concluded consideration of the application of the Inter¬ 
national Lumber Co. for approval of its application to obstruct the waters of 
the Rainy River at International Falls, Minn. . 

Considered special report of Mr. W. F. Tye on the effect of the proposed levels 
in Rainy Lake upon the Canadian Northern Railway and heard the legal and 
engineering representatives of the railway and the commission’s engineer, Mr. 

M j\^iuarv *25,° 1917. Concluded the hearing in reference to the effect of the 
proposed levels in Rainy Lake on the tracks of the Canadian Northern 

Railway. 

161477—20-15 





226 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


In executive session considered various communications and administrative 
matters. Granted extension of 30 days in time for tiling statement in response 
by tbe Dominion Government. Adopted resolution of sympathy upon the death 
of Th. Chase Cnsgrain, postmaster general of Canada, and for several years 
one of the chairmen of the commission. Directed secretaries to ask mill 
owners to discontinue practice of polluting with refuse the waters of the St. 
John River in Maine and New Brunswick. Extended thanks to the Civic and 
Commerce Association of Minnesota for the dinner in its honor. Directed the 
preservation of the data in the pollution of boundary waters and Lake of the 
Woods investigations. 

January 26, 1917. Considered its final report in the Lake of the Woods inves¬ 
tigation. 

January 27, 1917. Considered its final report in the Lake of the Woods inves¬ 
tigation. 


Washington, D. C. (regular session). 

April 3, 1917. Considered important official correspondence. Adopted report 
of committee on rules for conduct of its public sessions. 

Heard the chief counsel of the Reclamation Service, who made formal appli¬ 
cation for a supplemental argument of the matter of the measurement and 
apportionment of the waters of the Milk and St. Mary Rivers and their 
tributaries in the United States and Canada. Col. C. S. Maclnnes, Iv. C., 
counsel for the Dominion Government, appeared in regard to the same matter. 
Adopted an order granting the application for such supplemental argument. 

Adopted a mode of procedure for consideration in conference of the questions 
involved in the final report in the Lake of the Woods investigation, to be 
followed by consideration of the committee’s draft report. 

April 4, 1917. Considered its final report in the Lake of the Woods reference. 

April 5, 1917. Resumed consideration of the final report in the Lake of the 
Woods reference. 

Heard counsel for the Dominion Government and the United States War 
Department in regard to the request of the Dominion Government for an exten¬ 
sion of time in which to file a reply statement to the application of the United 
States Government for approval of proposed improvements in the channel of 
the St. Clair River at Port Huron, Mich., and granted such extension, with 
the assent of counsel for the War Department. 

April 6, 1917. In the forenoon visited Mount Vernon as guests of the Depart¬ 
ment of State, and the Canadian commissioners placed a wreath upon the tomb 
of Washington. 

Met and resumed consideration of the Lake of the Woods report in the 
afternoon. 

April 7, 1917. Resumed consideration of the final report in the Lake of the 
Woods reference. 

April 9, 1917. Resumed consideration of the final report in the Lake of the 
Woods reference. 

April 10, 1917. Resumed consideration of the final report in the Lake of the 
Woods reference. 

April 11, 1917. Resumed consideration of the final report in the Lake of the 
Woods reference. 

April 12, 1917. Resumed consideration of the final report in the Lake of the 
Woods reference. 

Designated Commissioner Mignault to prepare a tentative order in the mat¬ 
ter of the Application of the International Lumber Co. 

Toronto, Canada (special session). 

May 2. 1917. Met in the Parliament Building and considered administrative 
business, including printing of application of the United States Government in 
the St. Clair River case and the collection of costs from the applicant in the 
International Lumber Co. case. 

Took up consideration of the final report of the Lake of the Woods reference. 

May 3, 1917. Considered request of the Canadian Government for further 
extension of time for filing Canada’s statement in response in the St. Clair 
River case. 

Resumed consideration of the final report on the Lake of the Woods refer 
ence. 


May 5, 1917. Concluded consideration of final report 
Woods reference. 


on the Lake 


of the 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


227 


Heard Mr. F. A. Dallyn of the Board of Health for the Province ol: Ontario 
upon results of his recent visit to sewage disposal plants in England. 

Detroit, Mich, (special session). 

May 15, 1917. Met in the Federal Building. Received appearances of the 
chief counsel of the Reclamation Service of the United States, counsel for the 
United States and Canadian Governments, United States Senator Thomas J. 
Walsh of Montana, the attorney general of Montana, and others. Heard sup¬ 
plemental argument in the matter of the measurement and apportionment of 
the waters of the St. Mary and Milk Rivers and their tributaries in the State 
of Montana and the Provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan. 

May 16. 1917. Heard supplemental argument of counsel in the matter of 
measurement and apportionment of the waters of the St. Mary and Milk Rivers 
and their tributaries in the State of Montana and the Provinces of Alberta 
and Saskatchewan. 

May 17. 1917. Resumed and concluded the supplemental argument of counsel 
in the matter of the measurement and apportionment of the waters of the Si. 
Mary and Milk Rivers and their tributaries in the State of Montana and the 
Provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan. 

Considered the application of the Government of the United States for 
approval of proposed improvements in tlie channel of the St. Clair River at 
Port Huron, Mich., and heard legal and engineering representatives of both 
Governments. 

Considered tentative draft of a final order in the matter of the application 
of the International Lumber Co. and re-referred the draft to Mr. Mignault for 
revision, and to secure an accurate map of the situs and surroundings to accom¬ 
pany the order and opinion. 

Adopted order providing that, in view of the application of the Secretary of 
State on behalf of the Attorney General, and of the Canadian Pacific Railway 
Co. for time to present supplemental arguments in the Milk and St. Mary 
Rivers measurement and apportionment matter, when the arguments at Detroit, 
Mich., are printed they be sent to the Secretary of State and the Canadian 
Pacific Railway Co. with a request that they state at what time they desire to 
make further argument. . 

May 18, 1917. Final order in the matter of the application of the United 
States Government for approval of certain improvements in the St. Clair River 
was completed, signed in duplicate, and ordered filed with the respective Gov¬ 
ernments as required by the treaty as soon as the opinion to accompany the 

order can be completed by Mr. Mignault. . 

Final report on the Lake of the Woods reference was completed, signed in 
duplicate and ordered to be filed with the respective Governments as required 
bv the treaty as soon as the supplemental conclusions and recommendations are 
completed to accompany the final report and secretaries ordered to print 2.000 
copies of the final report. 


Ottawa. Canada (regular session). ,, _ 

October 2 1917. Considered order and opinion in the matter of th applica¬ 
tion of the International Lumber Co. for approval of certain obstructions m 
the waters of the Rainy River at International Falls. Minn. 

Considered the preliminary draft of the final report in the pollution of boun- 


C, ‘ln reference 6 to thfT request of the Secretary of State for extension of time 
for the \ttornev General of tire United States to present argument in the St. 

bei ,ei l 017 1 < thift ^th e 8 Attorn^T Generalhad' ded^ 

th^ma^ter^o^tte'appncatton 'f’ails, 1 ' Minm'^The 

order't^durSned in duplicate and o,Wed«^ ^TconSeTwith 




228 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Earle B. Phelps, of Washington, I). C., and Mr. F. A. Dallyn, of Toronto, 
Canada, sanitary experts, to attend its session at New York City. 

New York City, N. Y. (special session). 

December 3. 1917. After the Secretaries had presented certain official cor¬ 
respondence, the commission took up consideration of the draft of the final 
report in the pollution of boundary waters investigation. 

December 4, 1917. Resumed consideration of the draft of the final report 
in the pollution of boundary waters investigation. 

December 5, 1917. Resumed consideration of the draft of the final report 
in the pollution of boundary waters investigation. 

In executive session considered communication of the Secretary of State 
in regard to article 6 of the treaty relating to the measurement and appor¬ 
tionment of the waters of the St. Mary and Milk Rivers and their tributaries 
in the State of Montana and the Provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan. 

December 6, 1917. Considered administrative business, and ordered reprinted 
an edition of 4,000 copies of the report of the commission’s consulting sani¬ 
tary engineer, Prof. Earle B. Phelps, upon remedial measures for the pollution 
of boundary waters. 

CHRONOLOGICAL ABSTRACT OF SESSIONS DURING THE CALENDAR YEAR 1918 AND THE 

CALENDAR YEAR 1919. 

New York City (special session). 

February 4, I91S. Communications read from Reclamation Service of the 
United States and the Irrigation Service of Canada recommending the publi¬ 
cation by the commission of data prepared by those services in relation to the 
waters of the St. Mary and Milk Rivers. Same ordered to be published. Con¬ 
sidered draft of final report of the committee on pollution of boundary waters. 

February 5, 1918. Resumed consideration of draft of final report of com¬ 
mittee on pollution investigation. 

February 6, 1918. Commission adopted report of the committee to reply to 
the letter of the Secretary of State in regard to the jurisdiction of the com¬ 
mission to construe article 6 of the treaty in regard to the measurement and 
apportionment of the St. Mary and Milk Rivers. Commission resumed con¬ 
sideration of the draft of the final report of the pollution investigation in con¬ 
ference with Messrs. Phelps, Dallyn, and Fuller, engineers, then adjourned. 

February 7, 1918. Commission resumed consideration of the draft report of 
the committee in the pollution investigation. Draft report referred back to 
the committee for further consideration. Committee decided to meet with 
Messrs. Phelps and Dallyn in Boston, February 19. Order adopted compen¬ 
sating Mr. Dallyn for his services and traveling expenses. 

Washington, D. C. 

April 2, 1918. Draft of final report of the committee on the pollution in¬ 
vestigation considered. The commission considered the matter of the meas¬ 
urement and apportionment of the St. Mary and Milk Rivers and conferred 
with members of the Reclamation Service of the United States, the Geological 
Survey of the United States, and representatives of the Irrigation Service of 
Canada. 

April 3, 1918. Commission resumed consideration of the committee’s draft 
report of the pollution investigation. Draft report ordered referred to Mr. 
Powell for completion and submission to the commission at its next session. 
Commission resumed conference with engineer representatives of both Gov¬ 
ernments in the St. Mary and Milk Rivers matter. Ordered that the St. Mary 
and Milk Rivers matter be taken up at next session of commission and Messrs. 
Tawney and Mignault instructed to prepare tentative order for consideration 
of commission. 

New York. 

May 21, 1918. Stream-flow data prepared by engineers received and ordered 
filed in the matter of St. Mary and Milk Rivers. Secretaries presented follow¬ 
ing correspondence relative to the application of the New York & Ontario 
Power Co.: Letter of Secretary of State transmitting application; letter of 
under secretary of foreign affairs of Canada requesting an extension of GO 
days within which to file its statement of response in respect to said applica¬ 
tion. Letters from Secretary of State in regard to St. Mary and Milk Rivers 
matter received and filed. Consideration of the draft of the committee’s final 
report taken up in executive session. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION 


BILL. 


220 


on matter re¬ 
submitted draft 


leSSHB^ 

v<> application of tTo v 1 \! n 5!‘ lU ? 0 Can ml a 111 winch to tile response 

urn? 1 concluded °draft reomU nt ^ 0ntari ? Power Co - Commission resumed 
ordemi'sarrie'to*b™reoeived‘and p^"** 0 “ ^ P ° nutl0 '' luatto a "‘* 

St M Marv 4 ’nn< ! l 1 MH? 0 lMvo« i «! If U " le< ! °o nsi <1eration of the draft order in the 
Ovaftin.r {!. 1 ^" , T u .* ter ?" rt referred same back to committee for re- 

tl e Secretary'of Sb Itl tw n'' , M ‘ Klmu ! t reported «* follows on letters of 
, ecvetaij of State. That the letter of April 18, 1918, receive no renlv nnd 

mt m answering letter of Secretary of State, dated April 20. 3918 his’atten¬ 
tion be called to the restrictions therein placed upon the appointment of Mr 


reclamation of the United States,” in 
and also to include copy of the order of 


Davis as ‘‘ the properly constituted 
the St. Mary and Milk Rivers matter 
the commission in said matter. 

Atlantic City, N. J. 

n ^'!r u *} ]L> - 101S - The St. Lawrence River Power Co. having filed with the 
ffliv an a P pl Ration for the approval of a permit granted by the Secre- 

. / i 1 U \ ° ni . tecl states to extend Long Saulte Island, by means of 

a submerged weir, the jetty or deflecting dike in the south channel of the St. 
Lawrence River at the mouth of its power canal at Massena, N. Y Mr 
George M. Ivoonce, counsel for the United States, outlined history of project 

and explained why the United States Government was interested in the ap¬ 
proval thereof because of war needs and submitted a motion asking the com¬ 
mission to suspend its rules to enable the application to be heard as soon as 
possible. Mr. George B. Gordon and Mr. Leighton McCarthy, K. C., represent¬ 
ing tin' St. Law i mice River Power Co.; Mr. Prank H. Reefer, R. C., counsel for 
the Dominion Government; Mr. Francis Ring, representing the Dominion 
Marine Association; and Mr. A. V. White, representing the commission of con¬ 
servation of Canada, also spoke on the motion. 

Atlantic City, N. J. 

August 32, 1918 (continued). Commission heard counsel for the applicants, 
Mr. Van Kerman, and adjourned to go into executive session with Mr. Koonce 
in the matter of the St. Lawrence River Power Co. 

August 13, 1918. Commission resumed hearing of the application of the 
New York & Ontario Power Co. and heard Mr. Van Kennen, Mr. Connolly, 
Mr. Rutherford, and Mr. Lea. Commission adopted an order suspending 
rules Nos. 10, 13, 12, and 13 of the rules of proceedure, in connection with 
the application of the St. Lawrence Power Co. for approval of construction 
of certain proposed works in the St. Lawrence River, in order to hear the 
application as soon as possible. Counsel for the United States filed letters 
from the Secretary of War, the chairman of the War Industries Board, and 
the Acting Director of Aircraft Production urging immediate action on the 
application. 


Montreal, Canada. 

August 29, 1918. Counsel for the application of the applicants filed petition 
for leave to amend their application. The commission heard counsel and wit¬ 
nesses for the applicants as w r ell as counsel for the United States, the Do¬ 
minion of Canada, the State of New York, the Commission of Conservation 
of Canada, the Dominion Marine Association, and the Harbour Commission¬ 
ers of Montreal. Counsel for the United States filed letter from the Secre¬ 
tary of War urging approval of the application by the commission. 

August 30. 3918. The commission resumed and concluded the hearing of 
the testimony and arguments in the matter of the application of the St. 
Lawrence River Power Co. 

August 31, 3938. The Commission considered the application of the St. 
Lawrence River Power Co. 


New York City. 

September 12, 1918. Order-in-Council, dated September 2, 1918, in regard 
to the matter of the St. Lawrence River Power Co., received from counsel 
for Dominion Government. Commission took up its final consideration of 
said matter. 


230 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


September 18, 1918. Commission resumed consideration of the final order 
in the matter of the application of the St. Lawrence River Power Co., and 
conferred with the representatives of the two Governments. 

September 14, 191S. The commission resumed and concluded its considera¬ 
tion of the application of the St. Lawrence River Power Co., and adopted and 
signed its order therein. Mr. Mignault designated to prepare opinion in 
above case. 

Ottawa, Canada. 

October 1, 1918. The commission heard Mr. Van Kennen, Mr. Lea. and Mr. 
Tucker in the matter of the application of the New York & Ontario Power 
Co. .... 

October 2, 1918. Commission resumed consideration of the application ot 
the New York & Ontario Power Co., hearing the testimony of Mr. Tucker, 
Capt. Daly, Capt. Mallen, Capt. Batten, and Mr. Cleaveland. 

October 2, 1918. Commission met in executive session at 8.30 p. m. Orders 
adopted regarding to instructing official reporters as to attendance at sessions. 
Secretaries instructed to call on the board of engineers in the St. Croix, 
the St. Marys, and Milk River matter and the matter of the St. Marys River, 
to report on the progress of the work under their charge. Commission con¬ 
sidered the opinion presented by Mr. Mignault in the matter of the applica¬ 
tion of the St. Lawrence River Power Co. 

October 3. 1918. Commission resumed consideration of the application for 
the New York & Ontario Power Co. and heard testimony of Capt. Martin, 
Messrs. Connolly, Churchill, Stewart, Perkins, and Lea. Commission then 
met in executive session and adopted the opinion prepared by Mr. Mignault 
in the matter of the application of the St. Lawrence River Power Co. 

October 4, 1918. Commission heard arguments of counsel in the matter of 
the application of the New York & Ontario Power Co. 

October 5, 1918. Commission ordered 1.000 copies of the order and opinions 
be printed and charged as a joint expense, 700 copies furnished to the Ottawa 
office and 300 to the Washington office. Ordered that 500 copies of the hear¬ 
ings, including the testimony, arguments, and all documents and exhibits and 
necessary maps, as well as the order and opinions, be printed at a joint 
expense. 

New York City. 

January 13, 14, and 15, 1919. Mr. W. S. Connolly appeared before the 
commission on behalf of the New York & Ontario Power Co., to ascertain when 
a decision might be expected in the matter of the company’s application. 
The following order was adopted: 

“ The application of the New York & Ontario Power Co. came on to be 
disposed of at this time, the testimony on said application having been taken 
at former sittings of the commission, and the law and the facts having been 
fully argued by counsel for all parties in interest at the session of the com¬ 
mission held in Ottawa, on the 2d day of October, 1918, and it appearing that 
since the last-named date a vacancy has occurred in the commission by reason 
of the resignation of Hon. P. B. Mignault, as a member of the commission, 
which vacancy has not been filled: 

“ Ordered: That in the judgment of the commission it is without power or 
authority to proceed in the matter of said application, or of similar business, 
until the said vacancy has been filled and the membership of the commission 
thereby completed. 

“ Ordered: That the secretaries be directed to transmit a copy of this order 
to the secretary of state for external affairs of the Dominion Government and 
to the Secretary of State of the United States.” 

Secretaries submitted report from the board of control on the St. Croix River. 
Mr. Stewart made verbal report on the situation on the St. Marys River. 
Mr. A. P. Davis, of the United States Reclamation Service submitted a draft 
report prepared by the board of engineers in the St. Marys and Milk River 
matter and made a verbal statement. Engineers asked and received extension 
of time within which to file their report. 

Communication received from Secretary of State informing the commission 
that the Government of the United States had taken up with the Dominion 
Government the question of requesting the commission to prepare for the 
information of the two Governments recommending as to appropriate reme¬ 
dies for the existing pollution of boundary waters. The United States has 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


231 


taken this matter up with the Canadian Government with a view to making 
a joint request to the commission. 

Washington, D. C. 

April 1, 1919. A report was read from the board of control of St. Marys 
River matter, and Mr. Stewart, member of the board, explained the various 
points connected therewith. 

A report and schedule of requirements for 1919, submitted by the accredited 
reclamation officers of the United States and Canada, were read and the com¬ 
mission conferred with Messrs. Davis, Drake, Burley, Jones, and Hoyt. 

Official reference from the United States Secretary of State and the Secre¬ 
tary of External Affairs of Canada, requesting the commission to prepare 
drafts of a convention or proposed legislation in connection with the pollution 
of boundary waters reference. The commission proceeded to consider the sub¬ 
ject matter of the reference. 

A notice of motion was tiled from the counsel for the State of New York 
in the matter of the application of the New York & Ontario Power Co. for 
leave to file as part of the testimony the report of the survey of the Little 
River made by the engineers of the conservation commission of the State of 
New York and for other and further relief in the premises as may be just and 
right. In view of subsequent request of counsel the hearing on this matter 
was continued until the matter comes up for further hearing. 

April 2, 1919. Commission resumed consideration of the St. Marys and Milk 
matter, conferred with the reclamation officers of the two Governments, and 
considered a temporary order to govern the measurement and apportionment 
of the waters of these rivers during the current irrigation year. 

April 3, 1919. The commission resumed con ideration of the St. Mary and 
Milk River matter and ordered the order as drafted to he adopted and signed 
by the commissioners present and to he submitted to the full commission for 
ratification as soon as the Canadian vacancy be filled. Ordered further that 
copies of above order be transmitted to the Secretary of State for the United 
States and to the secretary of external affairs for Canada for the information 
of their respective Governments. 

An application was received and read from Canadian Cotton (Ltd.), for 
approval of its piano to construct a power house on the United States side 
of the St. Croix River opposite Milltown, New Brunswick. 

Th e secretaries were directed to collect and collate all the information 
■obtainable in connection with the development of the deep waterways 
from the seaboard to the Great Lakes, including cost of construction and 
operation, subsidies from Federal, State and Provincial authorities, quantity 
of tonnage parsing through the canals, together with the nationality thereof 
quantity of freight carried, and all other statistical information bearing upon 
the subject; and also tabulated statement of all official reports, Federal, 
Provincial, and State, relating to the development of these waterways, and 
also statistics as to power developed and undeveloped. 


Ottawa, Canada. 

October 7, 1919. Communication was read from Canadian Cottons (Ltd.), 
withdrawing their application. Secretaries were directed to direct the at¬ 
tention of the two Governments to the order of January last, setting forth 
its inability to proceed in the several matters before it until the vacancy 
caused by the resignation of Mr. Mignault in October last had been tilled, and 
to point out to the two Governments that the commission still found itself 
‘Confronted with the same situation.. 

New York, N. Y. . , . , . ,. ,, », - „ 

November °0 1919. For the purpose of considering a tentative diatt ot a 

treatv effectuating the recommendations of the commission in its final report 
on the pollution-of-boundary-waters matter, submission of such a treaty hav- 
“ been requested by the two governments, a conference of commiss.oners 
was held and began consideration of draft of such a treaty. 

November 21, 1919. Conference met and resumed consideration of diaft of 

^°Novmnl)m^ 22'1919. Conference resumed and concluded consideration of the 
draft treaty in’the matter of the pollution of boundary waters, to be submit¬ 
ted to the fnl1 commission for its consideration as soon as the Canadian 

vacancy is filled. 

Mr. Dickinson. Do you give your entire time to this work. 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir. 



232 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Dickinson. And does the stenographer? 

Mr. Kluttz. And so does Mr. Hall, the clerk and stenographer. 

Mr. Dickinson. How many hours a day does it take you to per¬ 
form the work of this commission ? 

Mr. Kluttz. It takes the whole day. We put in as many hours 
as other employees of the Government do, and we frequently work 
much beyond the regular hours; we work often after half past 4; 
sometimes we work at night. I think, after passing through from 
time to time on official business other departments of the Govern¬ 
ment, I can sav that our hours of employment compare more than 
favorably with those of any employees of any of the departments 
here in Washington; and our work is a responsible work and one 
which can not be delegated. The Secretary is a special disbursing 
officer under bond and responsible for the proper disbursement of 
this money. 

The Chairman. It is my judgment that most of the work of the 
commission is done by you two men. 

Mr. Kluttz. Thank you for the compliment, Mr. Chairman, but 
the commissioners work at their homes on these problems. They 
are difficult and intricate problems, and the commissioners work 
continuously upon them, and they take all of the best time of an 
able man—all of his time. 

Mr. Rogers. I should like to learn, for purposes of comparison, 
something in detail about the type of men who are appointed on the 
Canadian side of the commission. In other words, it seems to me 
that if the ex-officeholders are appointed in Canada, just as they are 
here—without in any way discrediting the ex-officeholder as such, 
because we will probably all be in that class some time—at the same 
time it will give us some insight as to the point of view of Canada 
in selecting its personnel for its section of the International Joint 
Commission. 

We are not so much concerned to know whether so-and-so of the 
Canadian High Commission was a senator or even a premier in the 
Province of Ontario, but we should like to know whether any of the 
Canadian gentlemen have peculiar experience, either in international 
law or international questions, or whether they have had a peculiar 
experience in dealing with water-power questions, so that they may, 
perhaps, fairly be said to be experts in the type of problems which 
are coming before the commission. Can you inform the committee 
on that point? 

Mr. Kluttz. Well, I can review the personnel on that side in a 
few words. 

The chairman of the Canadian section, C. A. Magrath, who, 
while at present living at Ottawa, is a native of western Canada, 
has had a considerable experience in surveying and engineering, 
I understand, out in the wilderness, and is a very wealthy man and 
a very successful man. 

Mr. Rogers. What is his profession ? 

Mr. Kluttz. He was the fuel controller of the Dominion of 
Canada. I should say that he is a retired business man, as far as 
I could define. As I say, he is a very wealthy man. 

Mr. Rogers. How old a man is he ? 

Mr. Kluttz. I can only guess at his age. I should say he was 
about 55 years old. 


DIPLOMATIC AND •CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 233 

Mr. Moores. Of whom are you speaking? 

Mr. Kluttz. Of Mr. Magratli, the Canadian chairman. He is 
very highly regarded. I think the same may be said of the Ameri¬ 
can chairman and of all of the American members; I have no in¬ 
tention of reflecting upon any of them in replying to the questions 
about the Canadians. All are distinguished and able public men. 

Mr. Smith of Illinois. How many lawyers are there upon the 
Canadian side of the commission? 

Mr. Kluttz. Mr. Henry A. Powell, of St. Johns, New Brunswick, 
is a most eminent member of the Canadian bar. He is regarded as 
one of the ablest lawyers in Canada; he is a man of remarkable 
mind and has made fine contributions to the work of the com¬ 
mission. 

Mr. Moores. lie is a great friend of Sir John Douglas Hazen, is 
he not? 

Mr. Kluttz. I think he is. 

Mr. Moores. I think Sir Douglas had him appointed. 

Mr. Kluttz. I think he did. I know he is a very able man. His 
special opinion, written in the St. Lawrence River Power Co. case, 
shows that he is a lawyer of great ability. He reviewed the Webster- 
Ashburton treaty and the whole history of the waterway treaties 
between the tw r o Governments. 

Mr. Smith of Illinois. How about the other Canadian commis¬ 
sioner ? 

Mr. Kluttz. The other commissioner was Mr. Mignault, another 
King’s counsel and an eminent member of the bar in Canada. The 
high regard in which he is held is manifested by the fact that he 
was appointed to the supreme court of Canada, the highest judicial 
office in their Government. His predecessor, Mr. T. H. Chase-Cas- 
grain, was made postmaster general of Canada; so that both of these 
men occupy very eminent positions, one on the supreme bench and 
the other as a member of the cabinet. 

Sir William Hearst has just been appointed to succeed Mr. Mig- 
naqlt. The commission will soon, therefore, meet and get into 
vigorous action again. I received a letter from the American chair¬ 
man the other day stating that he will call a meeting just as soon as 
he can. Yes; it is true that Sir William Hearst was defeated in the 
election for premier of Ontario; that will probably be your first 
thought. He was defeated; but he has been premier for many years, 
and is a man of eminent ability. 

Mr. Moores. He is a “ Grit,” politically, is he not? 

Mr. Mason. What is that? 

Mr. Moores. A “ Grit ” is a Liberal in Canadian politics. 

Mr. Kluttz. He was defeated by the coalition of farmers and 
laborers up there—but a very able man. 

Mr. Rogers. Then, is it fair to conclude from what you have said 
that Canada puts on this commission the very finest and most learned 
gentlemen at its command ? 

" Mr. Kluttz. It is; yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. I think that is true. 

Mr. Moores. I do not think there is any question about that. 

Mr. Kluttz. And I think the same may be said of the American 
commissioners. 


234 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


The Chairman. I have just one more question: All of the corre- 
spondence of the commission passes through your hand, does it. 

Mr. Ivluttz. The official correspondence passes through my hands ; 
the individual commissioners naturally will have much individual 
official correspondence also, but, of course, the bulk of the corre¬ 
spondence is through the office. 

The Chairman. How many letters do you receive and answer 
during a month ? 

Mr. Ivluttz. I could only guess at that; but I should say some¬ 
thing like 250 or 300, at least; and I have not included in that the 
continuous requests for documents—for the Lake of the Woods case 
documents and the pollution of boundary waters documents and the 
various hearings of the commission. We have printed a map that is 
in continuous demand. It contains the first international map of the 
whole Lake of the Woods watershed. 

The Chairman. Are there any further questions? 

Mr. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask leave to put in the 
record a biographical sketch of each of the Canadian commissioners, 
which Mr. Moores is going to supply. 

Mr. Ivluttz. I have also here, Mr. Chairman, a statement showing 
the disbursements for the years 1917,1918, and 1919. 

The Chairman. Those statements will be inserted in the record at 
this point. 

Classification of expenditures made by the United States section of the 

International Joint Commission. 


FISCAL TEAR ENDING JUNE 30, 1917. 



Commis¬ 

sion. 

I ake 
of the 
Woods. 

Pollu¬ 

tion. 

Milk and 
St. Mary 
Rivers. 

Interna¬ 

tional 

Lumber 

Co. 

St. 

Clair 

River. 

Total. 

PERSONAL SERVICE. 

Commissioners, secretary, clerk.. 
F rtpjnpprs 

$28,750.00 






$28,750.00 
6,162.50 
,175.00 
2,443.49 

1,229.66 
1,618. 17 

2,234.55 
523.93 
2,096.00 
16.33 
262.10 
2,308.12 
90.63 
18.00 

75.52 
273.53 
183.90 
143.11 

1,724.40 

76.50 

$6,162.50 





Pnji-in 1 1 inp unitary pYpp.rt. 


$175.00 




Tpmpnrfli'v help 


2,438. 49 

486. 80 
441.27 

781.40 
362.95 
696.00 

15.02 

150.41 
1,759.31 

90. 63 


$5.00 

241.74 


Stenographic service: 

Official reporters. 

A11 oth^r 

55. 50 
1,171.90 

540.67 
11.25 
496.00 

227.92 
5.00 

347. 60 
57. 79 
296.00 
1.31 
8.36 
261.33 

$204.50 

$13.20 

SERVICES OTHER THAN PERSONAL. 

Transportation of persons. 

Subsistence. 

Per diem in lieu of subsistence... 

TVqnspnrtatinn of things 

225.05 
46.12 
184.00 

339.83 
45.82 
424.00 


Communication service. 

Printing. 

T> oat. h i re . 

83.28 

56.92 

7.96 

5.24 

212.22 

6.85 

18.34 

Towel sp.rviep 

18.00 

60.56 
199.58 
183. 90 
92.50 

1,724.40 





SUPPLIES, EQUIPMENT, ETC. 

^Stationery . 

14.96 

73.95 





Office fl.nd other snpplips 





Furniture and furnishings . 





"Mi seel la,neons . 

49. 86 



.75 


FIXED CHARGES. 

Rent . 




Rent, offices in field . 

76.50 





Total. 






33,444.46 

13,600.05 

1,380.31 

667. 63 

1,274.60 

38.39 

50,405.44 





































































DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 235 

Classification of expenditures made by the United States section of the 
International Joint Commission —Continued. 


FISCAL YEAR ENDED JUNE 30, 1918. 



Commis¬ 

sion. 

Pollu¬ 

tion. 

Lake of 
the 

Woods. 

Milk and 
St. Mary 
Rivers. 

Interna¬ 

tional 

Lumber 

Co. 

St. 

Clair 

River. 

Total. 

PERSONAL SERVICES. 








Commissioners, secretary, clerk.. 
Engineers. 

$28,895. 84 

. 

$250.00 

. 

. 

. 

$28,895. 84 
250.00 
975.00 
68. 02 

501. 77 
995. 21 

Consult ing sanitary experts. 


$975. 00 




Temporarv help. 


68. 02 




Stenographic son ices; 

Official reporters. 

15. on 

306. 50 

8180.27 



All other. 

801.00 

143.33 

47. 88 



SERVICES OTHER THAN PER¬ 
SONAL. 




Transporf at ion of persons. 

580. ^2 

479. 28 

69. 64 

73. 71 



1,202. &5 
168. 27 
1,544.00 
11.71 
122. 68 
5,163. 66 
18. 00 

Subsistence. 


147. SO 

20. 47 
160. 00 



Per diem in lieu of subsistence... 

584. 00 

744. 00 

56. 00 



Transportation of t lungs. 


.30 

7. 91 

$3. 50 
83 


Comm unicat ion service. 

64. 75 

29. 48 

23 69 

3. 93 
240.33 


Printing. 

202. 98 

1,369.31 

3,240.31 

37. 87 

872. S3 

Towel service. 

18.00 

SUPPIJES, EQUIPMENT, ETC. 






Stationerv. 

78. 50 






78.50 
183. 09 

Office supplies. 

183. 09 






Furniture and furnishings. 

295. 85 






295. 85 

Miscellaneous. 

15. 70 

3.89 

33.36 

20. 75 



73.70 

FIXED CHARGES. 



Rent. 

1,724. 40 






1,721.40 







Total. 

33,462.33 

4,198. 89 

3,796. 84 

699. 46 

42. 20 

72.83 

42,272. 55 



FISCAL YEAR ENDED JUNE 30, 1919. 


Commis¬ 

sion. 


Pollution. 


New York 
and 

Ontario. 


St. L. 
River Co. 


PERSONAL SERVICES. 


Total. 


Commissioners, secretary, clerk 
Engineers. 


$28,745. 00 


828, 745. 00 


Consulting engineers 

Temporary help_ 

Stenographic service. 1 
Official reporters 
All others. 


851. 42 


$30.00 


8669. 80 


$2. 50 


2.50 
851. 42 


407. 40 


1,107.20 


SERVICES OTHER THAN PERSONAL. 


Transportation of persons.... 

Transportation of things. 

Subsistence. 

Per diem in lieu of subsistence 

■Communication service. 

Printing. 

Towel service. 

Office supplies. 

Miscellaneous... 


466. 53 
1.28 


472. 00 
73. 66 
187. 68 
18. 00 
260.35 
29. 25 


7. 78 


8. 87 


.49 
303. 71 


.75 


416. 99 


35. 87 
448. 00 
32. 62 


15. 75 


522. 01 


52. 94 
488. 00 
8. 68 
200. 85 


21.38 


1,413.31 
1.28 
97. 68 
1,408.00 
115. 45 
692. 24 
18. 00 
260. 35 
67.13 


FIXED CHARGES. 


Rent. 

Total 


1,724.40 
32,829. 57 


351. 60 


1,619.03 


1,703. 76 


1,724. 40 
35,503.90 


Mr. Dickinson. What was the unexpended balance on hand for 
1920? 




































































































236 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Kluttz. You mean for the existing year, do you not? 

Mr. Dickinson. Yes. 

Mr. Kluttz. We have expended up to date about $16,131. lhere 
is not included in that the cost of the document being printed at the 
Government Printing Office in the St. Mary and Milk River matter. 
I have been trying to obtain an estimate from them as to the exact 
cost of that, but they could not make it within the limited time 5 but 
it will cost, 1 should say, about $4,000. It contains many maps 
and illustrations and is a very valuable document. 

Mr. Dickinson. That expense includes all the salaries paid up to 
date ? 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes; it includes everything. 

Mr. Dickinson. Then, unless there is greater activity on the paid 
of the commission, there will be an unexpended balance June 30 of 
$50,000, or in that neighborhood? 

Mr. Kluttz. No, sir; it would not am'ount to that much; you see 
in the first half of the year we have, as stated, expended over $20,000, 
including the cost of that book. 

Mr. Dickinson. Yes; that is correct; it will probably be some¬ 
where between $25,000 and $30,000. 

Mr. Kluttz. Yes, sir; but you understand that we do not get that 
under the terms of the appropriation: that goes back into the Treas¬ 
ury as heretofore. 

Mr. Dickinson. Yes; I understand. 

Mr. Kluttz. I would like permission, Mr. Chairman, to place in 
the record just a few paragraphs from an address delivered by Hon. 
Wesley L. Jones in the United States Senate on the jurisdiction and 
work of the commission—it is just about a printed page. 

The Chairman. Give the date of the speech. 

Mr. Kluttz. The date of it is February 26, 1915. I am not put¬ 
ting in anything but the latter part of it, dealing with the matter in 
general terms; I am leaving out that part dealing with the early work 
of the commission, which might be thought somewhat out of date. 

(The extract referred to is as follows:) 

The International Joint Commission or tiie United States and Canada. 

T Speech of Hon. Wesley L. Jones, of Washington, in the Senate of the United States. 

Feb, 26, 1915.] 

An examination of the record of the work of the commission will disclose 
the fact that since its organization three years ago this commission has finally 
settled and adjusted more controversies between the people of Canada and the 
United States and between the two Governments than were previously settled 
and adjusted through the diplomatic agencies of England and the United 
States since the beginning of our Government. 

* sfc * * ❖ ❖ % 

In the final determination of these two cases (Michigan Northern Power 
Co. and Algoma Steel Corporation) the long-standing controversy between 
Canada and the United States was determined. Another result is the fact 
that the two Governments have leased to the two corporations referred to the 
right to use the waters of this river for power purposes. Under the lease 
executed by the Government of the United States to the Michigan Northern 
Power Co., which lease runs for 80 years, the United States will derive a 
maximum annual revenue of $06,000, or a total of $1,980,000 during the entire 
term of the lease. At the expiration of the lease the compensating works built 
by the Michigan Northern Power Co. at an enormous cost will become the 
property of our Government and our Government will continue thereafter to 
derive an equal, if not a greater, revenue. Measured, therefore, in dollars and 



237 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


all 

the 


the expense 
work it lias 


I ln settlement of this one controversy, 

ZZ Za T ,° f itS and on "t of 

uune ami is now engaged in. 

created 6 thnt e imvo y =!^ hei i displ ' tes existing at tire time (his commission was 
Channel controversy irf the "rv'h-oit' RiM™"'U °'' e tlle Livin S stone 
Cough S ■'?" *'V ° f rPtim inteCroTnaCthm 

1 Governments bv this cornnhs^ f !f terlnined to the satisfaction of both 

I sionn X anniic-.t-on I? I "J?-- An J* her ' Viis the decision of the eommis- 

fu; ‘ n Tlie application ol the Rainy River Improvement Co for nnnrovil of 

on P of P the aDnlicatiorf^if 6 I Another was the Emlna 

i or the application of the Watrous Island Boom Co for annrovil of its 

proposed construction of a log boom in Rainy River'To mileHon<? which 

[ onTintt ne -V n, 1 T*T/ 0 i the navigation interests and to the interests of the people 

for the da fv dfvlr^ m % An , oth * r 'Y as the application of the city of Winnipeg 
nf t fuS diversion of a hundred million gallons of the water of the Lake 

to WinMne^’ontn ‘ d ™ t0 be carriefl from the Lake of the Woods 

to Winnipeg, Ontario, a distance of about 90 miles. There are also other 

articl^^of thp W t Pe f dm 5 1 T, f ° re the commiss ion for its final approval under 

hii in mrv w. t / aty of 0ther 1 Prosed obstructions and diversions of these 
Doundaij waters for power and other purposes. 

Under article 4 of this treaty the high contracting parties have agreed that 
the waters therein defined as boundary waters and waters flowing across the 
boundary shall not be polluted on either side to the injury of health or propertv 
on the other. In 1912 complaint was made to both Governments that this 
provision of the treaty was being violated, in that these waters, and especially 
the rivers connecting the Great Lakes, were being polluted on both sides to 
the injury of health and property on the other side. Thereupon the Govern¬ 
ments. agreed to refer and did refer to this commission with ihstructions to 
investigate and report its conclusions upon the question as to wheth r ~ ’ iese 
waters were in fact polluted in contravention of the treaty; and if so, at 
what places, from what sources, and to what extent; and the Governments 
also required in their reference that the commission recommend suitable and 
adequate remedies for such pollution wherever found to exist contrary to the 
provisions of the treaty. 

The investigation of the first branch of this reference has been concluded 
and the result thereof embodied in a progress report, which the commission 
presented to the two Governments about a year ago, copies of which report 
have been furnished Senators and Members of the House. The investigation 
of this first branch of the reference involved the bacteriological examination 
of these boundary waters from the Lake of the Woods on the west to the St. 
Croix River on the east, a distance of over 2,000 miles. It was the most ex¬ 
tensive bacteriological examination of water ever made. Over 19.000 samples 
of water were examined and 17 field laboratories were installed and used foi 
that purpose; 24 bacteriologists were employed under the direction of the 


consulting sanitary expert, 
Public Health Service. 


Dr. Allen .T. McLaughlin, of the United States 


The field work in this examination was concluded in just seven months from 
the time it began, with the result that these boundary waters, with the ex¬ 
ception of the waters in the Great Lakes, were found to be polluted, and some 
of them grossly polluted, in contravention of this treaty. Even the waters of 
the Rainy River were shown to be polluted from International Falls to the 
Lake of the Woods, a distance of 100 miles. The same is true of all the rivers 
connecting the Great Lakes, as well as the St. Lawrence River, their outlet. 

According to the census of Canada and the United States, this investigation 
of the pollution of these waters involves directly the health of over 7,000,000 
people, for almost the entire boundary-water population is located in large 
centers of population on the rivers connecting the Great Lakes. The commission 
is now engaged in the more difficult branch of this investigation and one that 
is far more complicated, namely, the remedies which it is required to recom¬ 
mend to the two Governments for the pollution which it has already found to 
exist on both sides of the line, to the injury of health and property on the other 
side. 

It will be seen, therefore, that since the organization of this commission it 
has not only been actively engaged in the discharge of its duty under the 
treaty, but that it has accomplished more in the final determination of dis- 



238 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


putes between the two Governments, and especially between their respective 
peoples, than any other similar institution that has ever existed by authority 
of these two high contracting parties. Thus far in the performance of its duty 
its decisions, its reports with conclusions and recommendations have all been 
unanimous except one, which involved merely a technical question of jurisdic¬ 
tion, in which case one Canadian member of the commission joined with the 
three American members and rendered a final decision. It is also true that all 
of the final decisions of this commission and all of the reports with their con¬ 
clusions and recommendations have been accepted by both Governments as 
being entirely satisfactory. This commission therefore has not only justified 
its existence and the wisdom of the high contracting parties in creating it, 
from the standpoint of material benefit to the Governments and to the people 
living along these boundary waters, but its work and the satisfaction which 
the result of its labor has given to both Governments and their people is a 
splendid tribute to the genius and progressive international statesmanship of 
the two great English-speaking nations of the world in thus providing a means 
which, as the result of actual experience, is proving efficient and invaluable 
for the judicial settlement of great international questions involving treaty obli¬ 
gations or the rights and interests, as well as the health, of their respective 
peoples. 

It must be apparent to anyone that with a boundary between two countries 
almost 4,000 miles in extent, with millions of people living side by side under 
two separate and distinct governmental jurisdictions, whose commercial, indus¬ 
trial, and financial interests are necessarily and intimately related, and who 
are the owners in common of a vast property which marks almost one-half of 
that boundary, conflict of interest will arise in the future as in the past. This 
conflict of interest will hereafter as heretofore lead to controversies not be¬ 
tween the two Governments necessarily, but inevitably between their people. 
Between no two countries in the world is there a boundary of such territorial 
extent as that between the United States and Canada. It is likewise true that 
there is no boundary between any two countries in the world marked by a 
common property like the water which marks almost one-half the boundary 
between Canada and the United States or that is as valuable or as essential 
to the industrial welfare of the people of both countries as is the water from 
the Lake of the Woods to the St. Croix River. 

Without an international tribunal of some kind whose jurisdiction, in the 
settlement of international controversies or in the determination of individual 
rights and interests, may be invoked by the people of these two countries as 
well as by the Governments themselves for the prompt settlement of such con¬ 
troversies or for the ascertainment and determination of their respective rights 
and interests, there is no existing instrumentality available for that purpose 
except the diplomatic agency of the two Governments. Diplomacy does not 
afford the people of two nations, whose rights and interests are involved in any 
international controversy or in a controversy between themselves, the oppor¬ 
tunity to appear face to face to have their controversies determined upon 
sworn testimony and according to the principles of law. The necessity, there¬ 
fore, for the existence of this International Joint Commission or of some simi¬ 
lar international tribunal will exist as long as there is necessity for the exist¬ 
ence of courts either in the United States or Canada for the determination 
of controversies arising among their own people. This is so because of the 
intimate commercial, industrial, and financial relations, and also because of 
the exercise within their respective governmental jurisdiction of their common 
right to the use of the water which marks the international boundary between 
them. 

The treaty between Great Britain and the United States creating this inter¬ 
national court of justice marks the most advanced step yet taken by any two 
nations in the history of the world, not only for the settlement of international 
questions arising between them, but also for the settlement of questions of less 
consequence from an international standpoint between the people of both 
nations. 

There are many arbitration treaties between the United States and other 
nations. Doubtless there are many between other nations of the world, but 
there are- none between any two nations, except between Great Britain and 
the United States, that creates a tribunal composed of citizens of both nations 
for the settlement of international questions between their Governments or be¬ 
tween their people. This commission, therefore, charged as it is with the duty, 
and having the power to work out practically the great problem of whether 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 239 

or not the theory of international peace through the instrumentality of a court 
of arbitral justice can or can not be made a success should have the hearty 
support and encouragement of both Governments and their representatives. 

In my judgment, this tribunal furnishes an example of an intrumentality 
that may be well used, not only between the United States and Canada or 
Great Britain but between other countries, in the settlement of disputes between 
nations and people. 

I thought, in justice to the commission, that this statement ought to be made, 
especially after I had an opportunity to see the work the commission has done. 

The Chairman. Gentlemen, Mr. Hill, of the International Bound¬ 
ary Commission, United States and Mexico, is here, and I suggest 
that we hear him iioav as to the item on page 11 of the bill. 

But before going into that, I desire to say that that docket of the 
International Joint Commission shows that last year they had quite 
a number of hearings, probably 30, and the year preceding, they had 
a number about equal to that. 

The abstract which has been made a part of the record shows those 
hearings and the business transacted. But for this year the facts are 
about as stated by Mr. Kluttz yesterday in his oral testimony. 

STATEMENT OF MR. LUCIUS D. HILL, COMMISSIONER OF THE 

INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARY COMMISSION, UNITED STATES 

AND MEXICO. 

The Chairman. Please state your name? 

Mr. Hill. My name is Lucius D. Hill. 

The Chairman. And your position on this commission? 

Mr. Hill. I *am the commissioner for the United States of the 
International Boundary Commission, United States and Mexico. 

The Chairman. Did you prepare this estimate for the bill before 
the committee? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I note that you have reduced the estimate $5,000 
below last year’s appropriation? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. Hill tells me, gentlemen, that he did not know 
until yesterday that we desired that we should hear from him and lie 
telegraphed the chief engineer at El Paso, Tex., to send him a report. 
I do not know how it happened that he did not get notice, but I feel 
that we should go on with the hearings, because we must report this 
bill within the next day or two. 

Can you give us a statement of the work that you have been doing 
during the last year? 

Mr. Hill. I could give a general statement, without giving much 
detail. It would be impracticable, unless I had the records, to dis¬ 
tinguish offhand between the work that has been done this fiscal year 
and that done the last fiscal year; that is, I could not tell just what 
part of the work that I know we have done was done before the 1st of 
July—if the committee would like to know that—or just what the 
expenditure has been for this fiscal year, unless I had a statement 
from the disbursing officer. I have not received that but expect to 
have a statement from the disbursing officer within a day or two. He 

will be here Friday. . . 

The Chairman. Where is the disbursing officer now ? 

Mr. Hill. He is at Clifton Forge, Va.; he was here day before 
yesterday; I saw him at that time. 


240 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

The Chairman. How many commissioners are there? 

Mr. Hill. The commission is composed of two commissioners, one 
representing the United States and one representing the Mexican 
Government. 

The Chairman. What is the name of the Mexican commissioner? 

Mr. Hill. Antonia Prieto. 

The Chairman. How long have you been the United States com¬ 
missioner ? 

Mr. Hill. I was appointed in June, 1917. 

Mr. Rogers. Have you ever seen the Mexican commissioner? 

Mr. Hill. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Rogers. When did you see him the last time ? 

Mr. Hill. Well, it was the first part of December at San Antonio, 
Tex. We have been having, since I have been on the commission, 
beginning in the fall of 1917, meetings in San Antonio, Tex. We 
had meetings at El Paso, Tex., in the fall of 1917 and in the spring 
of 1918. Since then we have been having our meetings at San An¬ 
tonio, Tex., except in October, when we had a meeting in Mexico 
City. The main reason that we went to Mexico City was at the sug¬ 
gestion and invitation of the Mexican commissioner. 

In the spring of 1919 the engineer of the Mexican section, in an 
n ccident, had his leg broken and was disabled, and for a time after 
he recovered he was assigned to another department of the Govern¬ 
ment—the “ department of agriculture ” would be our term for it— 
and there was a vacancy during this summer and fall on that ac¬ 
count in the position of engineer of the Mexican section. 

We sought to impress on the Mexican Government the importance 
of filling this vacancy, and while I was in Mexico City I went with 
the commissioner to see the secretary “ de relaciones,” as they term 
him; it is the office that deals with foreign affairs. We went also to 
see the secretary of agriculture; the President, Carranza, at that 
time was not in the city, on account of the illness of his wife, who 
died shortly after that. I have been informed since my return that 
the appointment has been made. 

The Chairman. Well have you been working continuously on the 
surveys for this boundary during the past year? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; as far as we were able, on account of the 
vacancy in the position of engineer of the Mexican section. It being 
a joint commission, it is necessary that these surveys be made jointly 
by the American and Mexican engineers, and be approved by them. 

The Chairman. How long did that vacancy exist? 

Mr. Hill. Well, since along in the first part of 1919. 

The Chairman. Has there been no work done since the first part 
of the year 1919? * 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. I will state this: At the meeting that we had 
in San Antonio in April it was agreed by the commissioners, and so 
ordered by an entry on the minutes, that the engineers be directed to 
make their surveys of what they call “ bancos ” on the lower Rio 
Grande, where there were some controversies and complaints, that by 
reason of the changing of the lands from one side of the river to the 
other citizens were being disturbed and annoyed; numerous com¬ 
plaints were made, before and since then, that Mexican citizens were 
being evicted by proceedings in the State courts of Texas from these 
lands that have been cut from the Mexican to the American side; and 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


241 


we instructed the engineers to make the surveys and reports; and 
instructions were further given that the American engineer proceed 
to the work, and that he would be joined later by the Mexican engi¬ 
neer, when they could check up his w T ork as far as he had gone, and 
they could proceed to make the joint survey. 

1 he Chairman. How many American engineers were engaged in 
that work? 

Mr. Hill. Well, there is H. P. Corbin- 

1 he Chairman (interposing). I do not want the names; I just 
want the number. 

Mr. Hill. Well, Mr. Corbin had with him on that survev an assist¬ 
ant engineer. 

The Chairman. How long did that take? 

Mr. Hill. Well, that is what I am not able to give you now; I 
think it took about two months. 

The Chairman. Do you not receive reports in your Washington 
office from this chief engineer of the work he has performed? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. Those reports are in the main office in El 
Paso; I have not them with me. 

The Chairman. Outside of that, has there been any work done? 

Air. Hill. Well, it was also determined, at the meeting of the 
commission that a reconnoissance of the Rio Grande and its tribu¬ 
taries be made by the engineers, and that a report be made; and the 
American engineer did that; he made a reconnoissance of the Rio 
Grande from the lower valley to the mouth of the Pecos River; and 
also made a reconnoissance of the Davos River in Texas, expecting 
to be joined all the time by the Mexican engineer; and also they 
expected to make a reconnoissance of the tributaries on the Mexican 
side, the San Juan, the Conchez, and other important tributaries of 
the Rio Grande on the Mexican side. 

The Chairman. How long did that take? 

Air. Hill. I think they were engaged something like two months 
or two and a half months on it. 

The Chairman. How many men were in the party? 

Air. Hill. Well, the engineer himself was along part of the time 
and the assistant engineer; I think there were four or five in the 
party—the chainman, the rodman, and the axeman. 

The Chairman. What other work has been done since last Jan¬ 
uary ? 

Mr. Hill. Well, at our meeting in the spring it was- 

The Chairman (interposing). You only cumber the record by 
going into those details; please answer the question directly, and it 
will save your time, as well as ours; it is not necessary to go into 
details. 

Air. Hill. We have put in five gauging stations for the measure¬ 
ment of the water of the stream. That\vas done with the under¬ 
standing and agreement between the commissioners that the Ameri¬ 
can section should put in five and the Mexican section five. We have 
got ours installed and in operation. The Alexican Government have 
not got theirs; they have bought their equipment, and so on, but 
thev have not got their stations installed. 

The Chairman. How long will it take to put in those gauging 

stations ? 


161477—20-1G 





242 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Hill. We began the work, I think, in May of last year, and 
had a considerable part of it done by the 1st of July; and they 
have been completed since then; some of them took longer than 
others; some, I think, took about 60 days. We were delayed, in 
some instances, in getting the material. We bought most of our ma¬ 
terial in San Antonio, Tex., the meters, etc., and we had to order 
some of the cables from different places. 

The Chairman. I would much rather you would not bother about 
details. What I am trying to get at is how much work they have done. 

Mr. Hill. Well, I think they were engaged in that something like 
three months. 

The Chairman. And how many men were engaged in that work? 

Mr. Hill. It was under the general supervision of the engineer, 
and he employed men at different places to assist him—just whatever 
number was necessary to do the work; I do not recall now; there was 
no particular number. They had to get this equipment there. We 
sent some posts and cable and equipment for operation- 

The Chairman (interposing). Never mind about those details at 
all. Are these men that the chief engineer employed laborers or 
skilled men? 

Mr. Hill. Principally they were laborers; but at each place he 
was assisted by the man whom he had selected to operate the station 
after it was erected. 

The Chairman. In other words, it was a piece of work that could 
be done by laborers, under the supervision of an engineer ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What other work have you done during the year? 

Mr. Hill. Well, in a general way, those three items that I have 
mentioned are about what we have done; we had intended to make an 
accurate survey of the El Paso Valley, if we could have obtained the 
cooperation of the Mexican engineer. 

The Chairman. Then, to sum it up, the work of this commission, 
charged with the duty of fixing the boundary between Mexico and 
the United States, consisted of the location of these bancos, so as to 
stop the disputes between individuals; the reconnoissance, which 
took about two months, and the building of these gauging stations? 

Mr. Hill. And the reconnoissance of the streams. 

The Chairman. I want to ask you a question in regard to those 
bancos: As I understand it, the bancos are islands left by the Rio 
Grande River when it changes its course, which it does quite fre¬ 
quently; and they have resulted in controversies and disputes be¬ 
tween the two countries for years. Do you think there is any chance 
of ever being able to fix definitely that boundary between the United 
States and Mexico in the sections where the bancos occur ? 

Mr. Hill. I do not think so, unless some other boundary is agreed 
on than the Rio Grande River. That will occur in those valleys. 

Mr. Temple. May I ask a question? Are bancos islands, in the 
sense that they are surrounded by water? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. 

Mr. Temple. Or may not the old channel go along one side per¬ 
fectly dry, while the stream is actually flowing in another channel? 

Mr. Hill. Exactly; they are not islands. 

Mr. Temple. They are changes in the bed of the stream, which 
flows on the other side of the river, leaving the old bed dry ? 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 243 

Mr. Hill. Under the original treaties between the two Govern¬ 
ments— 

Mr. Temple (interposing). The river was the boundary. 

Mr. Hill. The river was the boundary; and when any change was 
made in it the old boundaries of the river remained the same. 

Mr. Temple. Yes; in certain cases. 

Mr. Hill. But in 1905, I think it was, a new treaty was made, 
which defined what they called a banco; it is defined in acreage there. 

Mr. Temple. Over 640 acres. 

Mr. Hill. Yes; if it is that or less, it is denominated a banco, and 
becomes the territory of the Government to which it is cut; if it is 
American territory and is cut to the Mexican side, it becomes Mexi¬ 
can territory; and if it is Mexican territory cut to the American 
side, it becomes American territory. If it is more than 640 acres, 
the stream bed continues to be the line. 

Mr. Temple. Or if there is more than 200 population living on 
its area, it continues under its former sovereignty. 

Mr. Hill. Yes. And when a change is made, the property rights 
of citizens of either country are not affected by the change. 

I had referred to me by the Secretary of State a few days ago a 
complaint by the Mexican ambassador, Mr. Bonillas, that Mexican 
citizens were being evicted from these lands by proceedings in the 
courts of Texas, and asking that some steps be taken by the Gov¬ 
ernment to suspend these proceedings, or have them suspended, un¬ 
til they could be passed on by the boundary commission. 

That request was made to me by the Mexican commissioner some 
months ago; and I replied to him that I did not think the United 
States Government would be disposed to do that, inasmuch as we 
had been prevented from considering and passing on those matters 
by reason of the failure of the Mexican Government to appoint the 
engineer. 

The Chairman. Has the Mexican Government taken any part in 
the surveying for this boundary line during the past year? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Then this work which you have done will have 
to be gone over and checked up by the Mexican commissioner and 
his engineer? 

Mr. Hill. Well, that is necessarily so; yes, sir. The Mexican com¬ 
missioner informed me, as I stated a while ago, that an engineer had 
been appointed and that he would have him report- 

The Chairman (interposing). Is there any necessity for this com¬ 
mission continuing in existence until the Mexican Government is in 
a position to do its part? 

Mr. Hill. Well, there would be no necessity unless the work could 
be done jointly, because it is a joint commission. 

The Chairman. How long has it been since the Mexican commis¬ 
sioner, through his engineers, has taken part in this joint survey? 

Mr. Hill. It has been almost a year now. 

The Chairman. Well, prior to the present year, did he take part 
in the surveying continuously, or only occasionally ? 

Mr. Hill.' Yes, whenever any work was directed to be done. They 
did some joint work there in' the El Paso Valley on some contro¬ 
versies there, and at Nogales they resurveyed the land through the 




244 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


town of Nogales, and on each side for some distance, where they 
were having some controversy about the land, and some friction be¬ 
tween the military authorities on each side of the line about its loca¬ 
tion; they located that. And in a number of other instances they 
cooperated. 

The Chairman. How many miles of this boundary have been 
monumented ? 

Mr. Hill. All of the boundary has been monumented—all of the 
land boundary and all of these bancos that have been surveyed have 
been monumented, and just below El Paso, Tex., there is what is 
called the San Alzario Island. It is not really an island; but it is 
where a change in the stream cut otf 15,000 acres of land from the 
Mexican side and placed it on the American side; and the old bed 
of the river was monumented; but it is very tortuous and it is very 
difficult work. It has been covered up with sand, and it is difficult 
to determine where the boundary is; and we expected this year, if 
we could have the cooperation of the Mexican engineer, to make a 
complete survey of that whole El Paso Valley, so that hereafter any 
changes that occurred could be easily determined by having fixed 
points of connection that——- 

The Chairman (interposing). This commission was created in 
what year? 

Mr. Hill. The treaty by which it was created was signed in 1889. 
I think the first commissioner, Gen. Mills, was appointed in about 
1894; I am not sure about the date. 

The Chairman. 'Well, do I understand you to say that the bound¬ 
ary has been monumented except where the river is the boundary 
between the two countries? 

Mr. Hill. That is not exactly what I stated. I said, except where 
the river is the line, and there where these changes have occurred- 

The Chairman (interposing). I understand. I want to get some¬ 
thing definite, however. Now, the boundary has been fixed between 
the United States and Mexico, except where the Eio Grande River is 
the boundary- 

Mr. Hill (interposing). And the Colorado River; that is the 
boundary for about 50 or 60 miles. 

The Chairman. Well, it never changes its course, does it? 

Mr. Hill. Yes; there are about the same conditions there that 
they have on the Rio Grande. 

The Chairman. You have the same difficulties there that you have 
on the Rio Grande? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; although it is a very short distance. 

The Chairman. How many miles? 

Mr. Hill. About 50 miles. 

The Chairman. Well, what do you take as the boundary where the 
river divides the countries? Is it the center of the river, or low- 
water mark on one side or the other or high-water mark on one side 
or the other ? 

Mr. Hill. The center of the river; we take the channel. 

The Chairman. You take the center of the channel? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; that is what the treaty provides. 

Mr. Temple. The general principle is the center of the navigable 
channel. 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


245 


Mr. Temple. And that is not navigable to any extent. 

Mr. Hill. Well, it is treated as a navigable stream. 

Mr. Temple. For the purposes of the treaty; yes. 

Mr. Hill. In the treaty, yes: but it is not navigable in fact. 

The Chairman. Well, this commission has been working, accord¬ 
ing to the record which I have, since 1890? 

Mr. Hill. I do not remember just when Gen. Mills, the first com¬ 
missioner, was appointed. I rather think he was appointed a little 
r later than that; but that may be correct. 

The Chairman. What work remains to be done so as to finally fix 
this boundary? 

Mr. Hill. Well, in the El Paso Valley, there are a number of con¬ 
troversies about where the line is. Changes have been made in the 
river there from time to time, and there ought to be an accurate sur¬ 
vey of that, and a fixed, definite line established that could be tied 
to; the distance from the river at all times should be taken, and when 
a change comes it could be ascertained very easily and without much 
expense, by connecting this line with latitudinal and longitudinal 
points. I am not an engineer and can not use the technical terms 
i exactly. . 

The Chairman. Well, the river has been surveyed a number of 
times and monuments have been placed, so that in case the river does 
change its course, there would not be much difficulty in determining 
the actual boundary? 

Mr. Hill. The river was surveyed a*number of years ago; but in 
some places there have never been any lines established on either 
side of the river that could be connected with; it takes lines so as 
to determine what the changes are; that is about the only way that 
! you could determine if any change had taken place in the river—by 
making a survey, the same as the original survey. 

Mr. Temple. Your commission has not anything to do with the 
I boundary, except the water boundary, has it? 

Mr. Hill. I understand it that way; that is correct. 

Mr. Temple. The monumented portion on the land does not come 
! under your judisdiction at all? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. 

Mr. Temple. Now. is it true that the treaty, in establishing the 
river as a boundary, really established a movable boundary? The 
river changes its banks, and as I understand it, when it does change 
its banks- 

Mr. Hill (interposing). The original treaty? 

Mr. Temple. Yes; I mean the Gadsden treaty of 1853. That treaty 
establishes the river as the boundary: and when the river moves.the 
boundary moves, except in two instances: First, where the river 
changes its course sufficiently to place G40 acres or more on the other 
side of the river from where it was before the change occurred; and 
second, wdien the land which is placed on the other side of the river 
by the river changing its course has 200 inhabitants or more living on 
it. With those two exceptions- 

Mr. Hill (interposing). That was a later treaty. 

Mr. Temple. Yes; that was the treaty of 1905. 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Temple. With those two exceptions, the boundary is still a 
movable boundarv; and the work of the commission is not only to 






246 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

establish but to maintain the boundaries. Is there any termination 
of that work? Will it ever come to an end? Is it not like the work 
of section hands on the railways—continuous work for maintenance? 

Mr. Hill. Until some other line is established. 

Mr. Temple. Yes; but under existing treaties? 

Mr. Hill. Yes; I think you are right. 

Mr. Rogers. What would be the status of 199 people who were 
residing on land which w T as American soil one day and Mexican 
territory the next? 

Mr. Temple. The treaty provides that the territory inhabited by 
200 or more people shall not be changed. 

Mr. Rogers. I understand; but does the treaty provide for a 
change of citizenship where 199 people live on the territory which 
is changed? 

Mr. Temple. The citizenship would not change, but the boundary 
would. 

The Chairman. The treaty provides that the lands shall not 
change where they are inhabited by 200 or more persons. 

Mr. Rogers. But I am wondering what would happen when a 
number of persons less than 200 found themselves in that situation. 

Mr. Temple. They would find themselves living in a foreign 
•country. 

Mr. Hill. But I do not think there has been any large popula¬ 
tion moved by any change in the river; that is the provision, but 
I do not know of any case which has occurred; there are just a 
few people on the lands affected by any one change. 

Mr. Houghton. To pursue this work requires, I suppose opera¬ 
tions upon both American and Mexican soil ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Houghton. Have you had any trouble in entering upon 
Mexican soil? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. 

Mr. Houghton. The disturbed condition upon the Mexican border 
has not in any way affected the work? 

Mr. Hill. Well, during the revolution, as I understand it, the 
operations of the commission were suspended. But since I have been 
on the commission—something more than two years—we have had no 
trouble about that. The engineers have gone across the river and 
surveyed on the Mexican side, or the American side, without any 
difficulty. 

Mr. Houghton. But in working upon the tributaries of the Rio 
Grande, for instance, has much more work been done on our side 
of the line than they have been able to do on the' Mexican side of 
the line? 

Mr. Hill. Well, it was contemplated, as I stated a while ago, to 
make some surveys and reconnoissances of those streams on the 
Mexican side; but in the absence of the Mexican engineer we have 
not done much. 

Mr. Houghton. That was not done purely because of the failure 
of the Mexican Government to apoint an engineer ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Houghton. And had not been done during all of those years 
up to that time? 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 247 


w L t )i Vell ’Au" " ot , kno '7 what was done back in those early 
*t wf V -uV do ? ot thln , k th , ere has ever been any reconnoissance of 
* at 6 tributary streams by the commission. 

Mr. Hoxjgiiton. Has there been on the American side? 

at tt U ^ e niade them this last year. 

Mr. Houghton. Is that work completed on our side of the line? 

Mr. Hilu Yes, sir; in a way. We made a pretty thorough recon¬ 
noissance of the Rio Grande up to the mouth of the Pecos River, 
and also on the Davos River. That was with a view of determining 
it there were feasible places for the erection of dams and reservoirs 
lor making use of the water for irrigation. 

The Chairman. What is your unxpended balance? 

Mr. Hill That is what I am not able to tell you without the 
statement of the disbursing officer. I will be glad to furnish that 
to the committee to-morrow. 


The Chairman. That will be all right. And can you furnish us 
an itemized statement of the expenditures of the committee ® 

Mr. Hill. Yes; I shall be glad to do that. 
a? 6 -£ hairman * Will you try to furnish that data to-morrow? 
Mr. Hill. If I can get the data in time I can; I am hoping to 
get it to-morrow. 

Mr. Rogers. Judge Hill, last year you testified before the com¬ 
mittee in December? 


Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. And the following colloquy occurred: 

Question. Can you tell us by whom the Mexican commissioner was 
appointed ? 

Mr. Hill. By President Carranza. 

Question. Do you know what his salary is? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. 

Question. Do you know what the total appropriation for this commission 
made by Mexico is? 

Mr. Hill. I do not. 

Question. Do you know approximately? 

Mr. Hill. I have not any information about it. 

Can you enlighten the committee this year on those points? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir; I am not able to do so. 

Mr. Rogers. Have you made any effort to find out? 

Mr. Hill. No; I could not say that I have. 

Mr. Rogers. There is now a commissioner- 

Mr. Hill (interposing). I will say this: That the way that we 
<lo as to this work that we have is that we make an estimate of what 
we think the work will cost and what the expense will be to the 
Government, and we do that with the understanding that each 
Government will pay its own half of the expense. 

Mr. Rogers. Last year you referred to three officers as consti¬ 
tuting the personnel of the Mexican section of the commission— 
the commissioner, the consulting engineer, who, I understand, has 
since resigned? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. And the secretary, who was then Mr. Pesqueira? 

Mr. Hill. He is still secretary. 

Mr. Rogers. Are there any other employees of the commission ? 




248 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Hill. Do you mean of the- 

Mr. Rogers (interposing). I do not mean to limit my question to 
the secretariat; but I mean employees, even if they may be laborers, 
or clerks, or stenographers. 

Mr. Hill. Well, there is an assistant engineer of the American 
section, Mr. Gillen, who lives at Eagle Pass, Tex., or who is located 
there. 

Mr. Rogers. He is assistant engineer of the American section? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. Well, I am asking at this point only as to the Mexi¬ 
can section. 

Mr. Hill. None, that I know of; no, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. In other words, there are the commissioner, and 
there are no subordinates of any kind? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. Your salary is $5,000 a year, is it not? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. And the salary of your consulting engineer is $4,800 
a year, and that of the secretary is $3,000 a year? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. And the salary of the disbursing officer is $1,000; is 
that correct? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Temple. What about the assistant engineer? 

Mr. Hill. The assistant engineer gets a salary of $2,500. 

Mr. Rogers. What proportion of your time do you spend in Wash¬ 
ington, and what proportion do you spend in Texas? 

Mr. Hill. Very little in Washington. 

Mr. Rogers. We just happened to catch you here, then? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; just happened to catch me here. This is the 
first time I have been here since October. 

Mr. Rogers. Your headquarters are in El Paso, are they? 

Mr. Hill. That is our main office; but I have been more at San 
Antonio, because it has been more convenient. The Mexican com¬ 
missioner insisted on our meetings being at San Antonio rather 
than El Paso, because it is more accessible. 

Mr. Rogers. You spoke of your disbursing officer being in Vir¬ 
ginia at the moment? 

Mr. Hill. He is in Virginia just now; yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. Is he here on leave, or are his headquarters in Wash¬ 
ington ? 

Mr. Hill. Well, he is in Washington very little. 

Mr. Rogers. Where is he most of the time ? 

Mr. Hill. Well, he is the secretary- 

Mr. Rogers. Well, the secretary and the disbursing officer are 
different persons, are they not? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir; the same man. 

Mr. Rogers. Last year, you said—and I understood you to ac¬ 
quiesce in that this year—that the salary of the secretary was $3,000, 
and the salary of the disbursing officer was $1,000. 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. I thought those were two different gentlemen. 

Mr. Hill. No, sir; they are the same man. 

Mr. Temple. The same man gets the two salaries? 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


249 


Mr. Hill. Yes. He gets a salary of $3,000 as secretary, and the 
duties of the disbursing officer have devolved on him. Mr. Gillen, 
the consulting engineer, was acting as disbursing officer, and he was 
at Eagle Pass, and that made it so inconvenient that these duties 
were devolved upon Mr. Tinsley, who is the secretary. 

Mr. Rogers. Are those offices and salaries statutory? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. You have the right to expend the appropriation 
for such purposes and in such amounts as you see fit? 

Mr. Hill. Yes; these salaries have been fixed by the Secretary 
of State. 

Mr. Temple. I should like to repeat that question, as I was not 
sure of the reply: When the secretary performs the duties of the 
secretary and also the duties of the disbursing officer, he draws 
both salaries, does he? 

Mr. Hill. Well, when these duties were devolved on him, his 
salary was fixed at $1,000 additional, as disbursing officer. 

Mr. Rogers. Was that fixed by the Secretary of State? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. And the Secretary of State was aware of the fact 
that the same individual was getting both salaries? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; I understand it that way. 

Mr. Rogers. Have you a Washington office? 

Mr. Hill. Yes. sir; when I am here, which is very little, I oc- 
cupv a room in the Southern Building, No. 633. The rooms there 
were occupied by the Canadian Boundary Commission—the Inter¬ 
national Joint Commission, I believe it is called. And we were 
unable to get any office room here; so the Secretary of State directed 
that we be allowed to occupy that room. 

Mr. Rogers. You have no records here of any kind? 

Mr. Hill. Well, there are some printed records and papers up 
there; but our records are really at El Paso, Tex. 

Mr. Rogers. None of your current material is here in Washington, 

is it? 

Mr. Hill. No sir; it is at El Paso. 

Mr. Rogers. Is.there at this moment a secretary for the commis¬ 
sion known as the Commission for the Equitable Distribution of 
the Waters of the Rio Grande? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. _ . , , , , ,, 

Mr. Rogers. Did Mr. John Wesley Gaines’s departure from the 

Mexican work end that function? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. _ . . ,. 

Mr. Rogers. Are you paying anything directly m connection with 
the work of that commission, which more or less dovetails m with 

your work, I suppose? ^ , TT 

Mr Hill Well, we are making measurements. We have in¬ 
stalled gauging stations, and are taking measurements of the water, 
and have made reconnaisances, as I say, of the river and its tribu¬ 
taries this year. „ . . 

Mr. Houghton. Where does the secretary of your commission 

live? I did not understand that. 

Mr. TTnu. At Clifton Forge, Va. 

Mr. Houghton. Does he spend all of his time there ? 





250 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Hill. No, sir; he is with us at our meetings, when we are 
in session. 

Mr. Houghton. How often does he attend those meetings? 

Mr. Hill. Well, there are no stated times; it is at the pleasure 
of the commission—whenever it is necessary. 

Mr. Houghton. Yes; but how many days in the year would it 
be—roughly speaking? 

Mr. Hill. Well, when we are in actual session, three or four times 
a year; sometimes our sessions last a month and sometimes not more 
than two weeks. 

Mr. Houghton. He would probably put in, then, from two to three 
months each year attending those sessions? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Houghton. What other work would he have then? 

Mr. Hill. Well, he is the disbursing officer of the commission. 

Mr. Houghton. How many employees has the commission? 

Mr. Hill. There is the commissioner, and the engineer, and the 
assistant engineer, and the secretary; and then there are those men 
that operate those five gauging stations; and then when the engineers 
are at work, of course, they have a force in the field. 

Mr. Houghton. Does the disbursing officer buy material ? 

Mr. Hill. Buy the materials? 

Mr. Houghton. Any of the material that you need; or is that 
bought by you, or by the engineer—or by whom is it bought? 

Mr. Hill. The engineer buys the material. 

Mr. Houghton. Then, substantially, the work of the disbursing ; 
officer consisting in making out, say, 40 checks a month, or something 
like that ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Houghton. For which he gets $1,000 a year? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Begg. He does not get $1,000 a year, does he? He gets $4,000, 
does he not ? 

The Chairman. No; he gets $3,000 a year as secretary and $1,000 ; 
a year as disbursing officer for writing 40 checks a month. 

Mr. Rogers. How long ago was he made disbursing officer at $1,000 
a year? 

Mr. Hill. Well, it has been, I think, almost two years ago; I do 
not remember the date. 

Mr. Rogers. Did you understand at the time you testified before 
the committee last year that two salaries were being received by one 
individual ? 

Mr. Hill. I think I so stated. Yes; I knew it at the time; but 
just when it was I do not know. 

Mr. Rogers. Well, unless the stenographer has done you an in¬ 
justice, the clear intent of the language you used and the clear un¬ 
derstanding of the committee was that there were two different 
offices and two different gentlemen, each receiving a salary, and I do 
not quite see how your testimony as printed was capable of any other ' 
interpretation. 

. Mr - Hill. If I made that impression it was a mistake; I did not 
intend to do it. 

Mr. Begg. I should like to ask you what is the purpose back of the 
listing of one job under two salaries? 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


251 


Mr. Hill. Well, I do not think it is listed that way. 

Mr. Begg. Well, I think you stated here time and again that he 
igot $3,000 as secretary and $1,000 as disbursing officer. Why did 
you not say that he got $4,000 a year, and that his duties were to be 
secretary when the meetings were held and also to disburse the 
money ? 

Mr. Hill. Now, I have nothing to do with fixing the salary; but 
•as I understand it—if I made that impression to the committee be¬ 
fore it was not intended. 

Mr. Begg. Well, I was not on the committee when you were before 
it the last time. 

Mr. Hill. But the facts are, as I understand them—I had nothing 
to do with fixing the salary- 

Mr. Begg (interposing). Well, I am asking if you know what the 
motive was that was back of dividing the salary ? 

Mr. Hill. I do not know that they are divided. 

Mr. Houghton . Probably the idea was if the man broke down 
under the strain of the work, it could be divided. [Laughter.] 

Mr. Hill. When the duties of the disbursing officer were devolved 
on him his salary was fixed at $4,000. 

Mr. Begg. I would like to ask you another question: Does he get 
a per diem when he leaves his home in addition to his $4,000 a year? 

Mr. Hill. He gets his expenses. 

Mr. Begg. He gets his expenses; well, that is a per diem, is it not ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. He does not get it while he is in Washington, 
but when he is on the work on the border there, and while the com¬ 
mittee is in session he gets $4 a day, which will hardly pay his 
-expenses. 

Mr. Begg. I would like to ask one more question. 

The Chairman. All right; proceed. 

Mr. Begg. I want to bring out a clear statement upon the question 
which Mr. Houghton asked: Do I understand correctly that the 
duties of this man as secretary are what we understand to be the 
duties of the secretary of any meeting which is in session ? He takes 
the minutes and writes up the minutes ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Begg. Does he have any other duties as secretary than that? 

Mr. Hill. Well, it is his duty to keep the minutes in Spanish 
nnd English. 

Mr. Begg. How many meetings did you have in the year 1919? 

Mr. Hill. I am not able to say; about four or five; I am not 
sure. 

Mr. Begg. Where were they held? 

Mr. ITill. Our meetings were held at San Antonio, Tex., except 
■one that we held in Mexico City in October. . 

Mr. Begg. And how long were you in Mexico City ? 

Mr. Hill. About two weeks. 

Mr. Begg. And how long were you in San Antonio, Tex., during 
the year 1919—in session? 

Mr. Hill. We were there—they had two meetings there, I think, 
in the spring and two this fall. 

Mr. Begg. And how long, approximately, was each meeting? 

Mr. Hill. Well, at one of the meetings there we were in session 
nbout three or four weeks, as I remember. 





252 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Begg. Will you give this committee a definite statement of the 
number of weeks that your commission has been actually in session 
during the year 1919? 

Mr. Hill. Yes; I can do that when I get the data that I expect 
to get here to-morrow. I have been informed that it was mailed to 
me from El Paso. I had a telegram this morning saying it was 
mailed on the morning of the 14th, which was yesterday. 

Mr. Begg. Does this secretary need to have technical knowledge 
as an engineer in order to be secretary? 

Mr. Hill. Well, he does not need to have a technical knowledge of 
engineering. His duties are clerical. He keeps the minutes and 
writes up the proceedings of the commission, and the minutes are 
kept in Spanish and English. 

Mr. Begg. Does the secretary himself take down the discussions the 
same as this gentleman here now is taking it down in shorthand, or 
is he furnished with a stenographer to do that? 

Mr. Hill. No; he does not ever take down the proceedings in 
shorthand unless it is the examination of some witness. He just 
writes up the minutes, a statement of the action of the commission. 

Mr. Begg. In other words, he does not record all of the particular 
activities, but records what is done? 

Mr. Hill. That is it. 

Mr. Begg. How long does it take to read the minutes of a session 
of four weeks? 

Mr. Hill. Well, the minutes are not very voluminous, usually. 

Mr. Begg. Twenty minutes, 30 minutes, or an hour, or two hours— 
what? 

Mr. Hill. Sometimes longer than others, but I suppose the min¬ 
utes of day’s session—sometimes we will meet for a day or two with¬ 
out making any entry, 'without coming to any conclusions to be re¬ 
corded in the minutes. 

Mr. Begg. Then the task of recording the minutes is not a very 
arduous one, is it? 

Mr. Hill. No; it is sometimes really difficult to get the minutes, 
as the commissioners will not agree on something or will not come 
to an agreement as to exactly what they want to decide to do. 

Mr. Begg. Substantially, then, he is paid to listen to the discus¬ 
sions? 

Mr. Hill. Well, he has to record the minutes whenever we come to 
any conclusions to be entered. 

Mr. Begg. Is there a Mexican secretary, too ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Begg. And what are his duties? 

Mr. Hill. They are the same. 

Mr. Begg. The minutes are recorded both in Spanish and in 
English ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Begg. Well, does this Mexican secretary speak Spanish and 
English also? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Begg. Now, Mr. Hill, I want to ask you one more question: 
Does this secretary have any other duties than those you have de- 
cribed ? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir; that is all. 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 213 

Mr. Begg. Then he gets $3,000 and his expenses ? 

Mr. Hill. That is correct. 

Mi. Begg. Does he have any other duties than those you have de¬ 
^ Mi. Hill. Well, he makes a bond and this money is turned over to 

Mr Begg. Well, I suppose the Government pays for that bond, 
does it not ? ^ 

Mi. Hill. Well, I do not know about that. I can not answer that. 

Mr. Begg. Well, T think that is all. 

Mr. Temple. Is this secretary familiar with the Spanish lan¬ 
guage ? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. 

Mr. Temple. Well, then, who does make the entry of those minutes 
m Spanish? 

Mr. Hill. Well, usually he and the Mexican secretary work to¬ 
gether, and the minutes are- 

Mr. Rogers (interposing). Does the Mexican secretary speak Eng¬ 
lish? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. It seems he is the real secretary, then. 

The Chairman. To be a little more accurate, the records that 
are kept by Mexico are kept in Spanish and the minutes kept by the 
United States are kept in English ? 

Mr. Hill. Well, that might be so. 

Mr. Temple. But they must be identical? 

Mr. Hill. Yes. 

Mr. Temple. Then the man who understands both languages is 
the only man who knows whether or not they are identical. 

The Chairman. Where does he perform his duties; is his office 
in El Paso or at his home in Virginia? 

Mr. Hill. Well, it is in El Paso when we are there, and at San 
Antonio when we are there, and I think the rest of the time it is 
at his home. 

The Chairman. How many days during 1919 was he in El Paso? 

Mr. Hill. Well, he was in El Paso very little. He was in San 
Antonio- 

The Chairman (interposing). Or San Antonio? 

Mr. Hill. Well, I am not able to answer that now, unless I can 
refresh my memory by going over the minutes. 

The Chairman. Well, as I understood your testimony, he was in 
Texas about four times during the year 1919. 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Does he pay his own railroad fare to Texas and 
back ? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Then the Government pays his railroad fare from 
Virginia down to Texas every time he goes down with the minutes? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Begg. Plus a per diem of $4 a day. 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you ever protest against this, Mr. Hill, this 
extravagence ? 







254 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Hill. Well, no; I can’t say that I regard this as extrava¬ 
gance. 

The Chairman. You consider that it is fair for the Government 
to pay this man’s railroad expenses from his home in Virginia 
down to Texas, where he spends a couple of months a year? 

Mr. Hill. Well, I don’t think he could afford to pay it out of 
his own salary. 

The Chairman. Will you be able to estimate for us the actual 
amount of money that has been paid out for employees, engineers, 
or laborers, in connection with the work during the year 1919? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; I could do that, but I can not do that now. 
I can do that and I will be glad to furnish an itemized statement 
of it. 

The Chairman. This commission, apparently, is solety concerned 
at the present time and has been for several years with the settle¬ 
ment of disputes growing out of the change in the Rio Grande 
River ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. The property owners of either Government may 
have a dispute and you try to adjust it? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Is there anything further? 

Mr. Rogers. I have just one question, Mr. Hill. Have you any 
knowledge of the Spanish language? 

Mr. Hill. I have some. I do not speak it. 

Mr. Rogers. Have you acquired that since you went on the com¬ 
mission ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. Had you any familiarity by experience with the 
problems which devolve upon you as commissioner before you 
were appointed? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. Had you ever been to the Rio Grande River before? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. 

Mr. Rogers. Can you tell the committee how many weeks of the 
year 1919 you spent in Texas and how many weeks you spent on 
the Rio Grande; I mean very roughly, of course? 

Mr. Hill. Well, I was down there the major part of the time. 

Mr. Rogers. Perhaps seven months? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; I think so. 

Mr. Rogers. That is all I have to ask. 

Mr. Begg. What was your business prior to the time that yott 
went on this commission, Mr. Hill? 

Mr. Hill. I was a lawyer. 

Mr. Begg. A lawyer? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Begg. Are you an engineer? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. 

Mr. Moores. Now, the treaty provides for the employment of a 
commissioner and the employment of a consulting engineer; who 
is the consulting engineer of this commission? 

Mr. Hill. H. P. Corbin. 

Mr. Moores. What do you call him; consulting engineer? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 



DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 255 

Mr. Moores. Well, you stated a while ago you employed a sec¬ 
retary and an assistant secretary- 

Mr. Hill (interposing). No. 

Mr. Moores. How many officers are .there—the commissioner, the 
assistant commissioner—how many did you name in addition to 
that? ^ 

Mr. Hill. No, sir; I did not say assistant commissioner. I said 
j assistant engineer. 

Mr. Moores. You have a commissioner and an engineer? 

Mr. Hill. Y es, sir. 

Mr. Moores. A commissioner, engineer, assistant engineer, and 
secretary? 

Mr. Hill. That is all. 

Mr. Moores. And those other employees you named awhile ago? 
Mr. Hill. Y es, sir. 

Mr. Temple. What is the name of the assistant engineer? 

Mr. Hill. L. C. Gilliam. 

Mr. Houghton. Well, they give their entire time to the work? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; the engineer does. He stays there. His home 
really is in Colorado, but he stays practically all of the time in El 
Paso, and is engaged'in the work there and I will say as far as I am 
j concerned that I have been very anxious to push this work and there 
is some important work to be done there that the citizens of both Gov¬ 
ernments are entitled to have done, and the only reason we haven’t 
done it is because of the failure of the Mexican Government to fur¬ 
nish us an engineer. We could have accomplished a good deal of 
work, and I hope that we will be able to do a good deal this spring, 
if we can get the cooperation of a Mexican engineer, especially to 
pass on these acute controversies that are being considered in the 
courts there. 

Mr. Sabath. How long have you been commissioner, Mr. Hill? 

Mr. Hill. Since June, 1917. 

Mr. Sabath. Who was commissioner before you ? 

Mr. Hill. Gen. Anson Mills. 

Mr. Sabath. How long was he commissioner; do you know? 

Mr. Hill. Well, he acted for many years. He was appointed—I 
am not able to say just now what date it was, blit I think it was in 
1903 or 1904 and lie held office up until December, 1914, when he; 

resigned. . 

Mr. Sabath. He had been commissioner for 10 years ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. While he was commissioner, did he have a secretary, 
or did the commission have a secretary? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. . . „ 

Mr. Sabath. Well, what did that secretary do to earn his salaiy . 
Mr! Hill. I can’t tell you that; I do not know. # 

Mr. Sabath. When was the secretary made also disbursing officer, 

lately ? 

Mr. Hill. Well, it has been more than a year ago. 

Mr. Sabath. Was there a disbursing officer before this secretary 

was made disbursing officer? < . „ , . , . 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; Mr. Gilliam was disbursing officer and assistant 

engineer. 









256 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPKIATION BILL. 

Mr. Sabath. Up to about a year ago when the secretary was ap¬ 
pointed disbursing officer? 

Mr. Hill. Mr. Gilliam was appointed, designed as the disbursing 
officer before I was appointed commissioner, and he was so acting at 
the time, and we had so much'difficulty because of his location in get¬ 
ting the vouchers to and from him and the disbursements made, that I 
requested the Secretary of State to devolve the duty on the secretary. 

Mr. Sabath. Who was Mr. Gilliam? 

Mr. Hill. He lives at Eagle Pass, Tex. 

Mr. Sabath. Well, what are his duties? 

Mr. Hill. He is assistant engineer. 

Mr. Sabath. Did he receive any compensation as disbursing offi¬ 
cer, do you know? 

Mr. Hill. I think he received $1,800 a year. 

Mr. Sabath. As disbursing officer? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. Do you know how many years he has been drawing 
that salary as disbursing officer? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir; I do not. He was on there during the time 
that Mr. Gaines was operating here and I just do not know how long 
he has been there. 

Mr. Sabath. So instead of paying the disbursing officer $1,800, 
which he has been receiving heretofore, during your administration, 
you have cut down that salary to $1,000 a year, and he is receiving 
only $1,000, and so you have brought about a saving to the Govern¬ 
ment of $800. 

Mr. Hill. Well, Mr. Gilliam has been appointed assistant engi¬ 
neer. I could not state that I have done that, because Mr. Gilliam, 
has been appointed assistant engineer at a salary of $2,500 a year. 

Mr. Sabath. Well, he has been appointed assistant engineer since? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. At that time—that was before he entered on 
this work and we did not need Mr. Gilliam as an engineer. 

Mr. Sabath. Well, but you need him as an assistant engineer? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. Because the work has become heavier than it was 
heretofore ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. And one engineer can not do all of the work him¬ 
self? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. So, before this secretary was appointed disbursing 
officer, Mr. Gilliam was the disbursing officer ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; and drawing a salary as disbursing officer of 
$1,800 per annum. 

Mr. Sabath. Did he perform any other duties while he was draw¬ 
ing that salary of $1,800 a year? 

Mr. Hill. I do not think he did. 

Mr. Sabath. Do you know how long he has been acting as dis¬ 
bursing officer? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir; he has been acting ever since before I was ap 
pointed. 

Mr. Sabath. Then he was there when you were appointed; you 
found him there as the disbursing officer under the former commis¬ 
sioner—what was the former commissioner’s name? 




DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 257 

Mr. Moores. Gen. Anson Mills, an Army Engineer officer. 

Mr. Hill. And he acted as disbursing officer after Gen. Mills re¬ 
signed while Mr. Gaines was performing the duties. 

Mr. Moores. What is Mr. Gilliam’s name? 

Mr. Hill. L. C. Gilliam. 

Mr. Moores. Where does he live? 

Mr. Hill. He lives at Eagle Pass, Tex. 

Mr. Moores. He is not the Gilliam that wrote, 44 Wilson the Demo¬ 
crat ” ? 

Mr. Hill. I suppose not. 

Mr. Sabath. No; he is an engineer; he is not a writer. 

Mr. Begg. Is he an engineer? 

Mr. Hill. Y es, sir. 

Mr. Begg. Did he do any work as an engineer at the time he was 
acting as disbursing officer? 

Mr. Hill. I do not think that he did. I do not know that he did. 
He didn’t after I was appointed. He may have before. That I do 
not know. 

Mr. Sabath. Now, I want to ask a few more questions, if I may. 
These gentlemen have had you here for an hour attempting to show 
that this is a reckless expenditure of Government money, and I am 
trying to show that you have practiced Democratic economy, and 
with three questions I have proven it. I have proven right off the 
reel that you are saving $800 a year by merging two offices into one. 

Mr. Begg. Will you permit a question? 

Mr. Sabath. You gentlemen have had him'here since 10 o’clock 
and I think I ought to have 10 minutes. 

The Chairman. Will you ask for this gentleman to appear by 
telegraph to-morrow ? 

'Mr. Hill. He will be here. 

The Chairman. He will be up here? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. You have no authority to issue checks or pay money? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. The engineer has not either? 

Mr. Hill. No; I approve the vouchers. 

Mr. Sabatii. I think under the law there must be some one to issue 
vouchers. 

Mr. Moores. There is no law at all. 

Mr. Sabath. Under the regulations of the department-• 

Mr. Moores (interposing). There is no law at all. 

Mr. Sabath. Do you mean to tell me that anybody can issue 
vouchers under the law? 

Mr. Begg. Anybody that is on the commission. 

Mr. Sabath. Well/let Mr. Hill answer the question. 

Mr. Moores. There is no reason- 

' Mr. Hill (interposing). I could issue checks if I was designated 
as the disbursing officer and the money was shown to my credit, as 
it is to the credit of the disbursing officer. 

Mr. Sabath. But the money is not placed to your credit and you 
have no jurisdiction to issue the vouchers? 

Mr. Hill. I have never issued a check. 

161477—20-17 . 






258 


DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


Mr. Begg. Well, isn’t it a fact that the salaries that you are pay¬ 
ing to-day is $1,700 a month higher than before you came on the 
commission, and before you appointed a disbursing officer? 

Mr. Sabath. What is the question. 

Mr. Begg. Isn’t it a fact that the salary pay roll, instead of a 
saving of $800, you are spendyig $1,700 a month more, because you 
are paying an assistant engineer $2,500 and paying an additional 
thousand to the disbursing officer. That makes $3,500, as contrasted 
with the former $1,800. 

Mr. Sabath. You mean per year? 

Mr. Begg. I meant per year; and so you are actually paying out 
$1,700 more to get this work done than was paid out before? 

Mr. Sabath. Not this work; there is additional work done. 

Mr. Hill. As stated, that has been done heretofore. 

Mr. Begg. Well, you state that you were employed about seven 
months last year- 

Mr. Sabath (interposing). But the assistant engineer and the 
engineer was employed the entire year, were they not? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Begg. Employed, but not busy. 

Mr. Sabath. Working, I mean continuously. 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; the engineer and the assistant engineer are 
working a good part of their time in actual surveying and in taking 
measurements of the river and making comparisons and in addition 
to that at the gauging station at Eagle Pass, Tex. 

Mr. Sabath. Gen. Mills was commissioner for about 10 years; 
what was his salary? 

Mr. Hill. I think it was $5,000. 

Mr. Sabath. The same as yours? 

Mr. Hill. Well, now, I think this—I say that I do not know just 
what it was, but Gen. Mills was a retired Army officer and he re¬ 
ceived the salary- 

Mr. Moores (interposing). He could not receive two salaries. 

Mr. Sabath. He was receiving- 

Mr. Moores (interposing). He was receiving the salary of a 
retired brigadier general. 

Mr. Sabath. I see; and he retired or resigned from the com¬ 
mission ? 

Mr. Hill. He resigned from the commission. 

Mr. Rogers. He was displaced, was he not, Judge Hill ? 

Mr. Hill. No; he was not displaced; he resigned and the place 
was vacant from 1914 until 1917, I suppose because of the revolu¬ 
tion. I do not know why. Gen. Mills resigned. Just why, I do 
not know, but I understand that it was voluntarily. 

Mr. Rogers. I was informed that it was otherwise, but I have 
no doubt that you know much better than I do. 

Mr. Sabath. The fact remains that the place was vacant for three 
years. 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. And if he had been asked to resign, to create a va¬ 
cancy for some one, the place would have been filled immediatelv ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Sabath. And as it was the vacancy remained for three years? 






DIPLOMATIC AND COin 


JULAR APPROPRIATION BILL. 


259 


. Hill. That is my understanding. I do not know—this is 
just my information. 

Mr. Sabath. And, during that time, some work accumulated, and 
you have been disposing of it as rapidly as you can ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. And you say you are a lawyer by profession? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

ijHr. Sabath. And you devote nearly all of your time to this work ? 

Mr. Hill. T es, sir; while I have been on the commission, I have 
felt it necessary to spend a good deal of time down there to keep 
up with the conditions and to inform myself thoroughly about mat¬ 
ters and have been urging the Mexican Government to give us 
cooperation all along and trying to get them to act. 

Mr. Sabath. Have there been any matters that have been held up 
by this wait ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. So the mere fact that you have been in session only 
five or six months during the year 1919, does not signify that you 
have not devoted a great deal more than that amount of time to the 
work while you have been commissioner? 

Mr. Hill. I have been able to give very little time to my private 
business. It really occupies nearly all of my time. 

Mr. Rogers. You keep up your law practice somewhat? 

Mr. Hill. I haven’t been able to give it any extended time. 

Mr. Sabath, You say you haven’t been able to keep up your law 
practice ? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. Where were you practicing law ? 

Mr. Hill. Sparta, Tenn. 

Mr. Temple. You said a moment ago that you had been urging 
the Mexican Government to continue the work of the commission. 
May I ask through what channels you communicate with the Mexican 
Government ? 

Mr. Hill. Well, through the commissioner, the Mexican commis¬ 
sioner, except I went with the commissioner to Mexico City to try 
and impress upon them the necessity of this work, and at the request 
of the commissioner. 

Mr. Sabath. I suppose you find dealing with the Mexican com¬ 
mission that same old-time Spanish habit so far as leaving it until 
to-morrow ? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; that is true. 

Mr. Sabath. And you are trying to get them to do the work to¬ 
day? 

Mr. Moores. You mean “manana.” 

Mr. Sabath. That is the word. 

Mr. Begg. Will it be possible for you to furnish this committee with 
information as to how many different years there has been a Mexican 
appropriation for this commission? 

Mr. Hill. A Mexican appropriation? 

Mr. Begg. Yes; how many years they have actually come across 
and provided for their part. Is it possible to get that ? 

Mr. Hill. I haven’t that information. 

Mr. Begg. Your records don’t show anything about that? 





260 DIPLOMATIC AND CONSUL Alt ’APPROPRIATION BILL. 

Mr. Hill. The records show that during Gen. Mills’s adminis¬ 
tration they worked down there, and I take that the expense was 
divided. 

Mr. Begg. Will you furnish that data since your administration 
began? I would be glad to have that. 

Mr. Moores. Who is the Mexican commissioner? 

Mr. Hill. Mr. Antonio Prieto. 

Mr. Begg. Where does he live? 

Mr, Hill. Mexico City, Mexico. 

Mr. Temple. May I ask, Mr. Hill, for the name of your predeces¬ 
sor? You spoke of Gen. Anson Mills, but you did not immediately 
follow him, did you? 

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; as I understand it, Gen. Mills was the only 
commissioner. 

Mr. Temple. What position did Thomas Wesley Gaines hold? 

Mr. Hill. He was appointed secretary to the commission while 
Gen. Mills was still commissioner and when Gen. Mills resigned— 
at that time they were having no cooperation with the Mexican 
Government, because of the revolution, and I understand that Mr. 
Gaines was assigned to do some work as acting commissioner or 
something of that kind. I forget how it was. 

Mr. fiOGERS. Mr. Gaines only held office as acting commissioner. 

Mr. Sabath. Do you know what salary Mr. Gaines received? 

Mr. Hill. No, sir. 

Mr. Sabath. He resigned; did he not? 

Mr. Hill. I have heard that. I think that he received a salary as 
secretary and as acting commissioner, amounting to $42,000. 

Mi*. Kogers. He resigned because he had a row with the State 
Department ? 

Mr. Sabath. No; because the committee did not see fit to appro¬ 
priate a large enough amount of money. 

Mr. Rogers. He had trouble with the State Department? 

Mr. Sabath. I think it was on account of the appropriation. We 
refused to give him what he asked for and he resigned. 

Mr. Chairman, I would like to have Mr. Hill furnish us the ex¬ 
penditures of that commission from the time it has been created up 
until 1919, by years. I presume he has a record of that. 

Mr. Hill. It is in the office. I do not know with regard to that, 
but you may have that here. 

The Chairman. I think we have that here, Mr. Sabath. 

Mr. Sabath. All right, if we have. 

(Whereupon, at 12.30 p. m. the committee recessed until 2 p. m. of 
the same day.) 



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